Not By Works
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You misinterpreted Matthew 7:21-23 and OSAS is not the issue here because these many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 were not saved and lost their salvation. In Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. These many people in Matthew 7:22-23 were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved.
John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts. Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in unbelievers, but He see's all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ.
John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts. Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in unbelievers, but He see's all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ.
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Fair enough and I do genuinely believe in OSAS because I believe it is truth from the Bible. I was not looking to insult you, but was just asking you a question. I would certainly hope that you would not cherish bondage and IN-security, yet fear and bondage to IN-security is where I stood several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, prior to my conversion when I subscribed to NOSAS. I was miserable!
I don't need a verse that specifically says "once saved, always saved." His saints are preserved forever, of those the Father has given to Jesus, He will lose none, Jesus' sheep will never perish or be snatched from His hand, and whom He justified these He also glorified, those who believe the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption etc.. is good enough for me.
Even a dead clock is right twice a day, yet the red flag still remains raised for me.
After being raised in the Roman Catholic church and having numerous conversations over the years with multiple people in false religions and cults it should come as no surprise.
That sounds fair and reasonable.
I don't need a verse that specifically says "once saved, always saved." His saints are preserved forever, of those the Father has given to Jesus, He will lose none, Jesus' sheep will never perish or be snatched from His hand, and whom He justified these He also glorified, those who believe the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption etc.. is good enough for me.
Even a dead clock is right twice a day, yet the red flag still remains raised for me.
After being raised in the Roman Catholic church and having numerous conversations over the years with multiple people in false religions and cults it should come as no surprise.
That sounds fair and reasonable.
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I will never again subscribe to any version of non-osas. Choosing to forfeit the gift is unfathomable to me and is not an option for me. I'm still not sure why you are so obsessed with believing you can and why you would want me to believe it. Since I became a Christian, I have never once even came close to considering it. I find it to be a despicable doctrine that undermines God's grace and preservation.
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Do you claim to live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life (exactly as Jesus lived) 100% of the time? On occasion, I run into people on various Christian forums who claim they do. In John 8:11, of course Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more. He cannot compromise His perfect, holy standard, so He is not going to say, "go and just sin a little bit" and Paul is not going to say that either. The woman needed to leave her life of practicing the sin of adultery, but do you really believe from that moment on she never sinned again at all in word, deed or thought?
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I think alot of people get James mixed up. James focus is not on works. His focus is on a claimed faith which is dead. Not real.
What does it profit anyone if they CLAIM to have faith (the focus) But has no works, Can that faith (a claimed faith only) Save them?
As you said, even demons believe, But we see they never trusted God, that's why they are called demons now, and not Angels.
As paul said in Eph 2, Those who are saved BY grace through faith are new creations, and as a new creation, we will do the works God created for us to do.
If we look at it this way, We see works are a byproduct, or a result of our faith and being made into new creation.
Thus James is stating a pretty hard fact. If we claim to have faith, But do not have the works Paul said we would have, Because true faith works, and as new creatures, we act our new nature not our old. Then our faith is dead.
Can that faith save us? No! Never could, never will.
Saying works are required is a danger, and tends to lead toward legalism, pride. And in essence makes james contradict paul. Who said specifically, No works ever had any part in our being made new creatures in Christ
What does it profit anyone if they CLAIM to have faith (the focus) But has no works, Can that faith (a claimed faith only) Save them?
As you said, even demons believe, But we see they never trusted God, that's why they are called demons now, and not Angels.
As paul said in Eph 2, Those who are saved BY grace through faith are new creations, and as a new creation, we will do the works God created for us to do.
If we look at it this way, We see works are a byproduct, or a result of our faith and being made into new creation.
Thus James is stating a pretty hard fact. If we claim to have faith, But do not have the works Paul said we would have, Because true faith works, and as new creatures, we act our new nature not our old. Then our faith is dead.
Can that faith save us? No! Never could, never will.
Saying works are required is a danger, and tends to lead toward legalism, pride. And in essence makes james contradict paul. Who said specifically, No works ever had any part in our being made new creatures in Christ
What’s the context here?
Be ye angry, and sin not: Let not the sun go down upon your wrath. Neither give place to the devil. (Ephesians 4:26-27).
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, not unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolator, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of God and if Christ. LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU WITH VAIN WORDS (Ephesians 5:5-5).
Be ye angry, and sin not: Let not the sun go down upon your wrath. Neither give place to the devil. (Ephesians 4:26-27).
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, not unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolator, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of God and if Christ. LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU WITH VAIN WORDS (Ephesians 5:5-5).
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We can not see it, Because it is not true
Eternal life is eternal. I have it, God did not give us a gift that he intends on taking back. He gave us a gift when we were at our worse he is not going to take it back after he began a good work in us, Especially after he promised he will complete that work.
Its not on us its on God.
You taking these passage out of context does not make them true, or support your theory that salvation is conditional life. Not eternal
Eternal life is eternal. I have it, God did not give us a gift that he intends on taking back. He gave us a gift when we were at our worse he is not going to take it back after he began a good work in us, Especially after he promised he will complete that work.
Its not on us its on God.
You taking these passage out of context does not make them true, or support your theory that salvation is conditional life. Not eternal
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The kingdom of heaven is like, but not "exactly" like. In the parable of the unforgiving servant, since the wicked servant did not have the means to repay his debt, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. (vs. 25) That is not how it works with the Lord in regards to our sin debt.
The wicked servant fell on his knees before his master, asking him to be patient with him and he will pay back everything. (vs. 29) The wicked servant did not ask his master to forgive his debt. That is not how it works with the Lord. He is not going to forgive our sin debt because we ask Him to be patient with us and we will pay it back, no matter how much we beg (vs. 32) with a wicked heart that is unwilling to forgive in such small matters. (vss. 28-30) The debt is too enormous to pay back!
The parable does demonstrate the mercy of the Lord who is willing to forgive, but ultimately, wicked, unforgiving hearts (which do not represent those who are born of God) can expect no forgiveness. Even though the master in the parable cancelled the debt of his wicked servant (just as our sin debt was paid in full and cancelled at the cross) he did not infallibly know his heart was wicked, until his wicked servant refused to forgive his fellow servant in such a small matter and even had him thrown into prison until he paid back the small debt. So his debt was cancelled, but ultimately, he was not forgiven.
The Lord Jesus Christ infallibly knows our hearts and ultimate forgiveness of sin is based on grace through faith and not on pleading for more time to pay back a debt that is too enormous to pay back with a wicked, unforgiving heart. So you need to take everything in the parable into consideration before reaching your conclusion on doctrine and not merely isolate one verse taken out of context in order to accommodate your biased doctrine.
The wicked servant fell on his knees before his master, asking him to be patient with him and he will pay back everything. (vs. 29) The wicked servant did not ask his master to forgive his debt. That is not how it works with the Lord. He is not going to forgive our sin debt because we ask Him to be patient with us and we will pay it back, no matter how much we beg (vs. 32) with a wicked heart that is unwilling to forgive in such small matters. (vss. 28-30) The debt is too enormous to pay back!
The parable does demonstrate the mercy of the Lord who is willing to forgive, but ultimately, wicked, unforgiving hearts (which do not represent those who are born of God) can expect no forgiveness. Even though the master in the parable cancelled the debt of his wicked servant (just as our sin debt was paid in full and cancelled at the cross) he did not infallibly know his heart was wicked, until his wicked servant refused to forgive his fellow servant in such a small matter and even had him thrown into prison until he paid back the small debt. So his debt was cancelled, but ultimately, he was not forgiven.
The Lord Jesus Christ infallibly knows our hearts and ultimate forgiveness of sin is based on grace through faith and not on pleading for more time to pay back a debt that is too enormous to pay back with a wicked, unforgiving heart. So you need to take everything in the parable into consideration before reaching your conclusion on doctrine and not merely isolate one verse taken out of context in order to accommodate your biased doctrine.
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Um no This would be your first mistake.If they had true faith they would have been created anew, and their faith would have produced. You do not say you trust someone yet not do anything they ask. If so. Your really had no faiht at all. Your just playing games
1. Why did you skip vs 22? Those who come to Jesus and lay their works at his feet, as if God should take these works and use them for something?
2. What did he say in vs 23? they practiced lawlessness, Not righteousness
3. He also said He never knew them, and told them to depart from him
You see. NOSAS people want to use this passage to say it destroys OSAS. When n fact it destroys NOSAS.
1. You can not use this to claim people had living faith, Because it proves these people NEVER had living faith (they practiced sin not righteousness)
2. You can not use this to prove they were saved then lost it. Because Jesus tells us, HE NEVER KNEW THEM, if they were saved at one time, then lost it (NOSAS) then Jesus lied. because at one time, Jesus had a relationship with them as their father, and they his children, And he would have KNOWN them Saying he NEVER knew them proves they were never his children
3. We can also look to Johns epistle. When john said whoever sins has never seen God. So we see John tells us these people who practice sin has never seen or known God just as Jesus said he never knew them
4. In the same epistle (chapter 3 of the 1st letter) John also says whoever has been born of God can not practice sin, so we see with certainty these people were never born of God, because they practice sin.
1. Why did you skip vs 22? Those who come to Jesus and lay their works at his feet, as if God should take these works and use them for something?
2. What did he say in vs 23? they practiced lawlessness, Not righteousness
3. He also said He never knew them, and told them to depart from him
You see. NOSAS people want to use this passage to say it destroys OSAS. When n fact it destroys NOSAS.
1. You can not use this to claim people had living faith, Because it proves these people NEVER had living faith (they practiced sin not righteousness)
2. You can not use this to prove they were saved then lost it. Because Jesus tells us, HE NEVER KNEW THEM, if they were saved at one time, then lost it (NOSAS) then Jesus lied. because at one time, Jesus had a relationship with them as their father, and they his children, And he would have KNOWN them Saying he NEVER knew them proves they were never his children
3. We can also look to Johns epistle. When john said whoever sins has never seen God. So we see John tells us these people who practice sin has never seen or known God just as Jesus said he never knew them
4. In the same epistle (chapter 3 of the 1st letter) John also says whoever has been born of God can not practice sin, so we see with certainty these people were never born of God, because they practice sin.
It’s a wonderful thing to have.
As long as you can bring glory to God, however you accomplish it, I support you!
At the moment we see things differently, I pray God that whoever is in the wrong here (between OSAS vs NOASA) can be guided into correction.
All praise to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
As long as you can bring glory to God, however you accomplish it, I support you!
At the moment we see things differently, I pray God that whoever is in the wrong here (between OSAS vs NOASA) can be guided into correction.
All praise to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.