Not By Works

[Judges1318]

Ralph...

I'm flattered (Ralph is a theological genius! I've read his posts.), but I'm Judges1318.

...does Jesus say a person becomes 'not His sheep' by not believing?

That is what scripture shows us.
If they continued to be sheep they would not be subject to God's wrath for no longer believing in Christ.

or does Jesus say a person is first 'not His sheep' and for that reason does not believe?

For some I'm sure that can be true.

does Jesus say a person does not hear therefore they are not of Him?
or does Jesus say a person is not of Him therefore they do not hear?

Hebrews 3 warns the believers to not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
I'm very certain the believer in whom that happens will eventually not hear His voice anymore.

 

[Judges1318]

GOD SEALED those Who are His and HE DOES THE WORK(S) (by His Spirit) through His tools (HIS SHEEP) that HE put a seal on....
Why is this so hard?

Don't just consider these one or two verses, consider the Scripture in whole.

Scripture verifies Scripture.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


2Cor 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Cor 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2Cor 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Once a son Always a son

I'm aware of all these scriptures.
None of them say the seal can not be removed.
They do say having it guarantees what is to come.
That's why we should retain Christ's seal of ownership by continuing to believe in Him.
'Cause you ain't gettin' nothin' if you get to the Judgment and Christ has removed His seal of ownership from you because you went back to your old life of sin and unbelief:

13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised.
15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. - Hebrews 11:13,15

The old osas says believers, by virtue of being believers, don't have the opportunity to go back.
The new osas says it doesn't matter if they go back to their old lives. The promises are still theirs.
Both are very unBiblical doctrines.

 

[walknlight]

GOD SEALED those Who are His and HE DOES THE WORK(S) (by His Spirit) through His tools (HIS SHEEP) that HE put a seal on....

I want to make a correction. God is sovereign, He uses who He wants, when He wants and however He wants to
perform His will..

But in direct correlation to being sealed, we are His, DONE DEAL....

Thank you Lord...

God Bless

 

[posthuman]

I'm flattered (Ralph is a theological genius! I've read his posts.), but I'm Judges1318.


That is what scripture shows us.
If they continued to be sheep they would not be subject to God's wrath for no longer believing in Christ.


For some I'm sure that can be true.


Hebrews 3 warns the believers to not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
I'm very certain the believer in whom that happens will eventually not hear His voice anymore.

sorry. someone called you Ralph. this thread has an established history of users coming to argue that salvation is dependent on works, being banned, and coming back with new usernames making exactly the same arguments. they often skip all introductions and appear right back in this thread. it's kind of obvious when it happens.



Jesus specifically says to some people that they cannot believe because they are not of God.
Jesus specifically says they do not believe because they are not His sheep.
by saying this Jesus specifically lays out a cause and effect:

• cause:
  • being His sheep
• effect:
  • believing
• cause:
  • not being His sheep
• effect:
  • unbelief

do you agree with Jesus or do you think He is wrong?
do you think Jesus has this upside down, that belief causes sheepiness, rather than the other way around?
do you disagree with Jesus, and believe that goatiness is an effect, rather than a cause?

you have been presenting a scenario in which you believe a person can be His sheep and then later cease to be His sheep.
Jesus says He knows all His sheep. by name.
why would Jesus say He never knew someone, if they **used to be His sheep** ?
wouldn't that make Jesus either a liar or pretty forgetful for an omniscient God?
'cuz He doesn't say, 'I don't know you anymore' -- He says never.
that does not fit your scenario.

 

[Judges1318]

someone who is in need of “keeping” their salvation.

A person who wants money in order to keep believing is not a believer.
Maybe they never believed before, or they stopped believing, but no believing person would ask for money in exchange for continued believing.

 

[walknlight]

I'm aware of all these scriptures.
None of them say the seal can not be removed.

Then why add?

 

[Lightskin]

A person who wants money in order to keep believing is not a believer.
Maybe they never believed before, or they stopped believing, but no believing person would ask for money in exchange for continued believing.

Once again you’re adding to the question that which does not exist. Would you give all your money to someone if it meant they would “keep” their salvation? Yes or no?

 

[Judges1318]

sorry. someone called you Ralph. this thread has an established history of users coming to argue that salvation is dependent on works, being banned, and coming back with new usernames making exactly the same arguments. they often skip all introductions and appear right back in this thread. it's kind of obvious when it happens.

No apologies necessary.
I know Ralph, personally.
He didn't get banned.

And as far as those who got provoked into saying things that got them banned (as if that wins any debate, lol) it's between them and God if they feel it's okay to come back to this forum. Personally, I probably wouldn't have any problem with it, but I've never been banned from a website to know what I'd really do. Where are the rules that say a banned person can't come back, anyway?

 

[Lightskin]

Why does 'sealed' mean 'never able to be unsealed' in osas doctrine when it simply means 'sealed'?
Why can't God remove His seal of ownership from an ex-believer?
Why does God allow unbelievers to stay in His kingdom forever and ever?

You wouldn’t ask these questions if you understood the meaning, magnitude and fullness of God’s grace. You have much to learn; I pray you learn it.

 

[posthuman]

No apologies necessary.
I know Ralph, personally.
He didn't get banned.

And as far as those who got provoked into saying things that got them banned (as if that wins any debate, lol) it's between them and God if they feel it's okay to come back to this forum. Personally, I probably wouldn't have any problem with it, but I've never been banned from a website to know what I'd really do. Where are the rules that say a banned person can't come back, anyway?

idc honestly about people coming back.
i'd rather have people here where i can talk to them than disappeared. even if i disagree.
i wouldn't be such a great mod lol. i mean, sometimes people are clearly disruptive and have no purpose in a forum but to cause trouble. but clashing views over difficult topics fosters discussion, and as much as people can be reasonable and civil, i prefer to leave open lines of communication than to cut them off completely.

tell Ralph post says hi.

 

[Judges1318]

Once again you’re adding to the question that which does not exist. Would you give all your money to someone if it meant they would “keep” their salvation? Yes or no?

I told you right from the beginning the circumstances that would have to exist before I gave all of my money, including what's in the ashtray of my car, if it meant they would keep believing. They could not be the one saying they will keep believing if I gave them money. That right there would tell me they are not a believer and that I should not be concerned about them retaining a faith in God they obviously do not have.

Remember this passage?

"18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money. 19“Give me this power as well,” he said, “so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20But Peter replied, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!" - Acts 8:18-20

Same spirit.
I'd have nothing to do with it.

I feel like Jesus.
You're trying to trick me.

"13Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words." - Mark 12:13

 

[Judges1318]

You wouldn’t ask these questions if you understood the meaning, magnitude and fullness of God’s grace. You have much to learn; I pray you learn it.

Of those questions, this is the one I really want you to answer:

Why does God allow ex-believers to stay in His kingdom forever and ever?

 

[posthuman]

A person who wants money in order to keep believing is not a believer.
Maybe they never believed before, or they stopped believing, but no believing person would ask for money in exchange for continued believing.

so..

when Jesus started saying that we have to eat His flesh and drink His blood, that He is the bread of life - many departed from Him.

".. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
(John 6:63-65)
​

it says here He knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe. plural. we're not just talking about Judas.
why doesn't scripture say He knew "who would cease to believe" --- seeing that you say that's how it works?
it says they did not believe. but they were disciples, following Him everywhere, likely repeating His teachings to others. doing good works. modifying their behavior. gathering with believers. saying things believers say. doing things believers do. professing belief.

but not really believing.

doesn't this tell us -- if we're really unbiased readers of the Book -- that those who fall away were never His sheep to begin with ?

 

[Judges1318]

idc honestly about people coming back.
i'd rather have people here where i can talk to them than disappeared. even if i disagree.
i wouldn't be such a great mod lol. i mean, sometimes people are clearly disruptive and have no purpose in a forum but to cause trouble. but clashing views over difficult topics fosters discussion, and as much as people can be reasonable and civil, i prefer to leave open lines of communication than to cut them off completely.

I agree.
I learn from hearing different opinions and viewpoints about scripture.
Other people see things I did not see, or ask questions that inspire further discovery.
The only people I put on ignore, or don't have any problem with being banned are those who stop rational debate and only abuse and insult.

tell Ralph post says hi.

 

[posthuman]

Why does God allow ex-believers to stay in His kingdom forever and ever?

John 6 seems to me to say there's no such thing as an "ex-believer" -- sheep who become goats is an empty set, a non-existent category.

there's only pretenders who eventually stop pretending; tares revealed as tares, goats that are shown to be goats, those who go out from us, proving that they were never really one of us.

 

[Judges1318]

so..

when Jesus started saying that we have to eat His flesh and drink His blood, that He is the bread of life - many departed from Him.

".. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” ​

(John 6:63-65)​

​

it says here He knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe. plural. we're not just talking about Judas.
why doesn't scripture say He knew "who would cease to believe" --- seeing that you say that's how it works?
it says they did not believe. but they were disciples, following Him everywhere, likely repeating His teachings to others. doing good works. modifying their behavior. gathering with believers. saying things believers say. doing things believers do. professing belief.

but not really believing.

doesn't this tell us -- if we're really unbiased readers of the Book -- that those who fall away were never His sheep to begin with ?

The immediate result of Jesus' entire earthly ministry was only 120 people.
It's apparent that He did not entirely withhold His grace from the vast majority who He apparently knew would not continue in their believing.
He doesn't do that.
He goes by what any one person is today.
If you believe today you will in fact possess the promises that only believers have.
The believing Galatians show this to be a fact.
They believed and received the Holy Spirit, yet they went back to something else for justification and departed from justification in Christ.
According to your theology, God knowing they'd do this would not have saved them in the first place but would have waited until they 'really' believed and not ever fall away, even if only temporarily, because remember, osas' interpretation of 1 John 2:19 is that the Galatians would have never left to begin with.

 

[Judges1318]

John 6 seems to me to say there's no such thing as an "ex-believer" -- sheep who become goats is an empty set, a non-existent category.

there's only pretenders who eventually stop pretending; tares revealed as tares, goats that are shown to be goats, those who go out from us, proving that they were never really one of us.

A rose by any other name.....or no name at all.
Call it what you want, but the sheep who is no longer in the fold is not entitled to the benefits that the Shepherd offers His sheep.

You're getting bungled up because you're trying to stretch the metaphor of sheep and goats beyond it's intended use. The metaphor makes no provision for goats becoming sheep either, but that is essentially what happens. And in the other metaphor, there is no such thing as a tare becoming a wheat stalk, but that is essentially what happens.

 

[Judges1318]

Then why add?

I'm not the one adding to scripture.
I go by the passages that talk about not believing anymore.
And the exhortations to keep believing.

Osas is the doctrine that adds 'can't be unsealed' to 'sealed' in the Bible as if that's what the definition of 'sealed' means.

 

[Judges1318]

Call it what you want, but the sheep who is no longer in the fold is not entitled to the benefits that the Shepherd offers His sheep.

Maybe the better way to view it is the Shepherd can't help a wandering Sheep who He went to find and found it dead.
You don't bring dead sheep back to the fold.
Only those that still have life in them.

 

[EleventhHour]

Maybe the better way to view it is the Shepherd can't help a wandering Sheep who He went to find and found it dead.
You don't bring dead sheep back to the fold.
Only those that still have life in them.

Right because in your genius theology Ralph...... Jesus is incompetent.