Catholicism vs Protestantism
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Let's start with
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
You do believe that's mean require to accept Jesus for Muslim to be save or not
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
You do believe that's mean require to accept Jesus for Muslim to be save or not
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Let do it step by step like you suggested we fokus on Muslim
That don't believe in Jesus
Why catholic say Muslim in the plan of salvation?
Let do it step by step like you suggested we fokus on Muslim
That don't believe in Jesus
Why catholic say Muslim in the plan of salvation?
So, you not agree with catholic don't you?
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
The implication is muslim don't need confess jesus as God to be save
The implication is muslim don't need confess jesus as God to be save
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
A. Is that mean salvation only by Catholic Church?
What is the different with B
B. Salvation by Christ alone.
Seem to me Catholic replace Christ
A. Is that mean salvation only by Catholic Church?
What is the different with B
B. Salvation by Christ alone.
Seem to me Catholic replace Christ
I can't speak for all, obviously, but I consult my bible for answers, and no sect's interpretations of what it means. The latter may be helpful sometimes, but not so much in this case. So I'll bow out here with the suggestion that you consult your bible and decide for yourself if the church's desire to be ecumenical fits with God's word.
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My brother, we are here to discuss, if any church teach something that not inline with the Bible or intend to replace the Bible in disguise, don't you worry it will mislead other to hell?
After you consult with the Bible, let other know, if that teaching is oppose the Bible.
We are call to love, love mean learn to care other, warn other if there is trap ahead.
False teaching is a trap, it will kill you
After you consult with the Bible, let other know, if that teaching is oppose the Bible.
We are call to love, love mean learn to care other, warn other if there is trap ahead.
False teaching is a trap, it will kill you
Well, let's start with the first statement
No salvation apart from Jesus
The problem is that there is ambiguity in the statement. Does it mean that there is no salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus? Or, does it mean that there is salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus, but they are not saved apart from Jesus.
As I see it, it's closely related to the question that we were talking about earlier, the question:
Is it possible for someone who has never heard of Jesus to be saved?
I think that it is possible. If I remember right you said that you didn't know.
But if you don't know, then you can't say that someone else's answer is wrong.
Do you follow what I'm saying there?
No salvation apart from Jesus
The problem is that there is ambiguity in the statement. Does it mean that there is no salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus? Or, does it mean that there is salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus, but they are not saved apart from Jesus.
As I see it, it's closely related to the question that we were talking about earlier, the question:
Is it possible for someone who has never heard of Jesus to be saved?
I think that it is possible. If I remember right you said that you didn't know.
But if you don't know, then you can't say that someone else's answer is wrong.
Do you follow what I'm saying there?
I think it means that there is the possibility that a Muslim can be saved without "accepting Jesus" in the way that many Protestants mean when they talk about "accepting Jesus". But I don't think Catholics are saying that if a Muslim is saved, that Muslim is saved apart from Jesus.
Myself, I think that would be true for non-muslims, as well. It is possible that a person can be saved without "accepting Jesus", but that person would not be saved apart from Jesus.
I found this quote, and I think it relates to what I was saying about Catholic teaching going back two thousand years, and just looking at a single paragraph, or maybe two paragraphs by themselves and trying to decide if there is contradiction or confusion, will probably lead to misunderstanding.
"...to understand an isolated formulation of any Church teaching, one must study the historical context within which it was written: why it was written, what was going on in the Church at the time, who the intended audience was, and so on. One must discover how the magisterium (teaching office) of the Church understands its own teaching. If someone fails to do this and chooses, rather, to simply treat a particular formulation as a stand-alone teaching, he runs the risk of seriously misunderstanding it."
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means
Myself, I think that would be true for non-muslims, as well. It is possible that a person can be saved without "accepting Jesus", but that person would not be saved apart from Jesus.
I found this quote, and I think it relates to what I was saying about Catholic teaching going back two thousand years, and just looking at a single paragraph, or maybe two paragraphs by themselves and trying to decide if there is contradiction or confusion, will probably lead to misunderstanding.
"...to understand an isolated formulation of any Church teaching, one must study the historical context within which it was written: why it was written, what was going on in the Church at the time, who the intended audience was, and so on. One must discover how the magisterium (teaching office) of the Church understands its own teaching. If someone fails to do this and chooses, rather, to simply treat a particular formulation as a stand-alone teaching, he runs the risk of seriously misunderstanding it."
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means
I think they are saying that if someone is saved, the church, the body of Christ, is involved in some way.
Remember, this is very similar to the issue that you said you didn't have an answer to, the issue of whether a person who has never heard of Jesus can be saved.
The head is not the same as the body, but if it is true that the head cannot be separated from the body, then in anything that the head does, the body would also be involved.
Thus, if anyone is saved, whether they have heard the name of Jesus or not, they are not saved apart from the body of Christ, the church.
Remember, this is very similar to the issue that you said you didn't have an answer to, the issue of whether a person who has never heard of Jesus can be saved.
The head is not the same as the body, but if it is true that the head cannot be separated from the body, then in anything that the head does, the body would also be involved.
Thus, if anyone is saved, whether they have heard the name of Jesus or not, they are not saved apart from the body of Christ, the church.
Ecumenical, yes or no, great question!
On one hand, we have things like rivalries and divisions being listed as works of the flesh. And Paul says that the divisions in the church at Corinth, some people of Paul and some people of Apollos etc, were not at all a good thing.
On the other hand,
2 John 1: 10 If anyone comes to you, and doesn't bring this teaching, don't receive him into your house, and don't welcome him, 11 for he who welcomes him participates in his evil works.
In the context of that passage, the particular teaching is that Jesus came in the flesh. Is that the only teaching worth dividing over? I think probably not.
And if one isn't sure?
I lean towards accidentally including someone who should have been excluded as opposed to the other way around.
On one hand, we have things like rivalries and divisions being listed as works of the flesh. And Paul says that the divisions in the church at Corinth, some people of Paul and some people of Apollos etc, were not at all a good thing.
On the other hand,
2 John 1: 10 If anyone comes to you, and doesn't bring this teaching, don't receive him into your house, and don't welcome him, 11 for he who welcomes him participates in his evil works.
In the context of that passage, the particular teaching is that Jesus came in the flesh. Is that the only teaching worth dividing over? I think probably not.
And if one isn't sure?
I lean towards accidentally including someone who should have been excluded as opposed to the other way around.