Roman Catholic?

[SantoSubito]

The problem with this is that if this is true. then one can not use history to prove their church was the only church. because anyone who opposed it would have been shot down. So how can one say my church has been the only church since the beginning? You can't.

Which is why Scripture should be the only guide as to what the truth is. For it is the only thing we know comes from God and is untainted by men.

Like dscherek stated before; that has really worked out marvelously well hasn't it? This reminds me of two things my dear old great grandma said: The only thing that protestants are united in is division, and Catholics can be accused of many things, but inconsistency is not one of them.

Well actually all of those things are proved or not proved by scripture. If people wish to twist scripture and form a false doctrine, Like they have since Moses, that is on them. So just because someone might interpret wrong take away the usefulness of Gods word?

I cut out some of the above post because it is not pertinent to the point I or you were trying to make. The real sticky issue with Sola Scriptura is establishing exactly which interpretation is correct, and then establishing why all the other interpretations can not be true. The Calvinism and Arminianism debate is the perfect example of this; both sides have compelling points and counterpoints to their positions, and both draw solely from scripture, but they draw vastly different conclusions. In fact most of the protestants I know have simply given up on picking a side in the aforementioned debate simply because both sides are convincing.

The RCC gets around this problem by having an infallible teaching authority that can proclaim which interpretation is correct. However, protestantism by its very nature has no such authority and instead the debate is never resolved and new denominations are created. So the solution to this problem is a system we Catholics have had for 2000 years, which is something few protestants will admit, but I know many of them I've talked too have expressed a clear desire when asked, for some authority that can settle matters once and for all.

Basically, Sola Scriptura is one of those ideas that sounds great in your mind and looks great on paper, but is really not very good in practice.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're right in that no one should be forced to believe. That just leads to problems. And it's a grave sin and a great injustice that it ever happened. But do remember that it wasn't just the Catholics who did such things. There are numerous Catholic martyrs who were killed simply because they refused to believe as some of the early Protestants said they should.

do two wrongs make a right? No onbe should have done it. the fact someone did would lead anyone to question not only their motives, but their doctrines. Gods truth would stand on its own and not need an army to force feed Gods followers.

Actuall

y, Our Lord didn't use only Scripture. We have instances recorded in the Gospels where He drew upon Jewish oral tradition. And Paul himself also drew several times on Jewish oral tradition.

Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy "He shall be a Nazarene" is oral tradition. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

The hebrew word for nazereth is the word netzer, which means a "branch or a vine" Thus if we look at Is 11:1, Is 53: 2-3 are prophesies which would show that Jesus would be a netzer "a branch which shoots out of Jessie. Also notice that jessies descendents lived in Nazereth You can find it, you just have to know where to look. And remember, It was a mystery which was hid.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the oral tradition of acknowledging Moses' seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Well lets see. Moses was the one who wrote the law and gave it. The scribes are the one who copy the law. And the pharisees where teachers and strict observers of the law. All which came from moses. Jesus acknowledged this. and stated they sit on moses seat. "position of Authority" Scripture shows who took over from moses as teachers and holders of the law. It does not have to say "seat" it is known. this is a flawed example. and is easily found in scripture.

John 19:26; 20:2; 21:20,24 - knowing that the "beloved disciple" is John is inferred from Scripture, but is also largely oral tradition.

And this has a bearing on a doctrine of the church and the gospel of Christ how?

Acts 20:35 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles for this statement ("it is better to give than to receive") of Jesus. It is not recorded in the Gospels.
1 Cor. 7:10 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles to give the charge of Jesus that a wife should not separate from her husband.
1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exodus 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.
Eph 5:14 - Paul relies on oral tradition to quote an early Christian hymn - "awake O sleeper rise from the dead and Christ shall give you light."
Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the oral tradition of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.
Jude 9 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of the Archangel Michael's dispute with satan over Moses' body. This is not found in the Old Testament.
Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of Enoch's prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Thanks for proving my point. God deemed it necessary that we know these things. After Paul placed them in scripture. it was no longer oral tradition, it was Gods word. Which is exactly what I stated. Paul said oral tradition because scripture was not complete yet. God put down what he deemed necessary in scripture. then it no longer was oral tradition.

God did however promise that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth. That promise was made to the Church, not to the individual. The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth as attested to in the Scriptures. Naturally if the Church is entrusted by Our Lord to become the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, we can rest assured that He will enable it to determine the true interpretation of Scriptures. Believing in the teachings of the Church doesn't make me a puppet, if anything it helps me grow in my faith. I don't have to worry about things such as "is God a Trinity? Or are the Oneness guys correct?" Those things have already been decided by the Church, which is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. Now i can focus on things like, "How can I best offer my current sufferings to Christ?" Or "Grace and the human cooperation with grace"

Hmm. So God promised the HS to everyone who is his child. But the Holy Spirit is only able to teach a few people the truth. Thanks for that bit of knowledge. But sorry I can not buy it..

The Church is built on the word which God gave us, Even paul stated this. A church not built on the word is no church at all.

What your saying is that if anyone in the line of peter did not want to believe what peter didl. but wanted to add his own doctrine or belief, then God would force that person to believe truth against his will. I can not buy this either.

I say your following men because your following history, and what they tell you. And not the word of God.

Amen to that. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to determine which Church is the most accurate in presenting the teachings of the Apostles (and of course vis a vis, Our Lord). I know that my interpretation can be faulty, but I also know that the Church's interpretation can be relied upon to be correct because of the promises of Christ. So, thanks to the power of reason, I figure that if I want to be assured my interpretation of the Scriptures aligns with the Truth, I should figure out which of they myriad churches out there is THE Church. I'm quite comfortable with my choice.

Yes I agree, I would not want to go to a church who teaches a lie or a false gospel. But how can we know which church is this church? Well God only gave us one instruction book, I think we should use it. And not listen to men. Men are flawed. They make mistakes. Gods word will stand forever.

 

[David_1]

I just wanted to say I think the Catholics/Orthodox posting are very brave. Even though you are the majority of Christians on the planet, this site is filled with a lot of hate. It seems it's a protestant past time to tell everyone why they are a heretic. It's their great mission? Of course there are roses amongst the many thorns.

These are all artificial barriers we don't need. But then again humans have been slaughtering each other in the name of Christ for a long time.

And now the favourite past time is to hate on the neighbour (Moslems).

Hate Hate Hate, just what the kingdom of God is about..... SIGH

 

[trust_in_the_name]

104 Through Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way. (Psalm 119:104)

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Just a quick recalibration for clarity...

Sola Scriptura was originally directed at specific grossly unbiblical issues of RCC corruption, especially regarding Indulgences. It was about making Scripture available to the people so they couldn't be deceived and manipulated, and impoverished financially and spiritually. The same is true for the other Solas. They all specifically addressed issues of error in RCC practice, many of which remain today.

Today's understanding of the Solas is non-contextual. I have a Protestant background, but do not adhere to the Solas. Scripture alone can't give clear guidelines for various cultural ethical and moral issues. I also don't hold to other Protestant teachings, like Calvinism/Arminianism and Original Sin. Trinity is extra-biblical error; Filioque is unbiblical heresy.

The RCC is the ecclesiological equivalent of a puppy mill in the pedigreed pet industry. 1Tim. 3:15 wasn't referring to the RCC.

 

[judyjudy]

I used to be catholic but now I'm a devoted christian, I believe in it more than I did in the catholic perspective of everything. It was a completely different vibes and scenario, and focused way more on different beliefs, respectful beliefs, but something completely different than what we should focus on of course.

 

[kujo313]

I am just wondering how many here are actually Roman Catholics. I am new here and I get the impression that most are from other denominations. So, who is Roman Catholic here and what do you all think of the recent appearances of the Holy Mother in our century.

Overview of Medjugorje

FATIMA NETWORK: Our Lady of Fatima Online

There IS a CatholicChat.com. This is CHRISTIAN Chat so it is not centered on one denomination.

As far as appearances of "Mary" go, I see hundreds and thousands of people going to where "Mary" supposedly appeared and they break out their rosaries, reciting prayers to "Mary". They bring statues and paintings of "Mary" and they remind me of paparazzi.

We're NOT supposed to be looking out for anybody but JESUS! Period! These apperations of "Mary" are demonic.

PLEASE don't go out of your way to see a grilled cheese sandwich! Just keep on with the Great Commission until Jesus comes.

 

[SantoSubito]

There IS a CatholicChat.com. This is CHRISTIAN Chat so it is not centered on one denomination.

As far as appearances of "Mary" go, I see hundreds and thousands of people going to where "Mary" supposedly appeared and they break out their rosaries, reciting prayers to "Mary". They bring statues and paintings of "Mary" and they remind me of paparazzi.

We're NOT supposed to be looking out for anybody but JESUS! Period! These apperations of "Mary" are demonic.

PLEASE don't go out of your way to see a grilled cheese sandwich! Just keep on with the Great Commission until Jesus comes.

We're not referring to the people that see the Blessed Virgin in a pizza stain or a sandwich. What we're referring to are much more concrete and verifiable apparitions, such as the one at Fatima that has been mentioned. Fatima is an especially hard apparition to dismiss simply because of the sheer number of people Catholics and Atheists alike that witnessed the "Miracle of the Sun." In fact, the only real way for a person of faith to dismiss Fatima is to claim the apparition was demonic, which you have done. But how an apparition that led atheists to convert, and sinners to repent is demonic is beyond me.

 

[loveschild]

I thought we would have learned something from the last time one of these people were sent by you know who to cause trouble?? Just pray for them to stop being blinded and love the best you can and don't reply. Whats the use?

 

[trust_in_the_name]

There IS a CatholicChat.com. This is CHRISTIAN Chat so it is not centered on one denomination.

Just a clarification of terminology, Christianity isn't a denomination.

 

[kujo313]

We're not referring to the people that see the Blessed Virgin in a pizza stain or a sandwich. What we're referring to are much more concrete and verifiable apparitions, such as the one at Fatima that has been mentioned. Fatima is an especially hard apparition to dismiss simply because of the sheer number of people Catholics and Atheists alike that witnessed the "Miracle of the Sun." In fact, the only real way for a person of faith to dismiss Fatima is to claim the apparition was demonic, which you have done. But how an apparition that led atheists to convert, and sinners to repent is demonic is beyond me.

Satan preforms miracles, too.
Convert to WHAT? Jesus didn't tell us to follow anybody but Himself. He said that if we do the Will of God, then we ALL are His mothers and his brothers. He said that blessed is he who "hears the word of God and obeys".

Is it the Will of God to believe in the One HE sent? Is it Jesus?

 

[kujo313]

Just a clarification of terminology, Christianity isn't a denomination.

True. It's a relationship with Him.
But there IS a CatholicChat.com

If they go there, I promise not to follow and cause problems.

 

[dscherck]

Satan preforms miracles, too.
Convert to WHAT? Jesus didn't tell us to follow anybody but Himself. He said that if we do the Will of God, then we ALL are His mothers and his brothers. He said that blessed is he who "hears the word of God and obeys".

Is it the Will of God to believe in the One HE sent? Is it Jesus?

We do believe in the one He sent. We believe in Jesus. We just don't happen to think that ignoring His mother is a good idea when our desire is to become ever closer to Him.

 

[dscherck]

True. It's a relationship with Him.
But there IS a CatholicChat.com

If they go there, I promise not to follow and cause problems.

But we also belong here. This is Christian Chat. And we are Christian. Why would we not be welcome here?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I just wanted to say I think the Catholics/Orthodox posting are very brave. Even though you are the majority of Christians on the planet, this site is filled with a lot of hate. It seems it's a protestant past time to tell everyone why they are a heretic. It's their great mission? Of course there are roses amongst the many thorns.

These are all artificial barriers we don't need. But then again humans have been slaughtering each other in the name of Christ for a long time.

And now the favourite past time is to hate on the neighbour (Moslems).

Hate Hate Hate, just what the kingdom of God is about..... SIGH

I guess you could say they learn from the ones who started it. It was the roman church who ruled with an iron thumb with hatred and disdain for everyone who did not agree with them. I guess its alright when you did it. But not ok for everyone else? One could say your getting back what you did for over 1000 years.

The funny thing is most people are NOT hating on you. I have a muslim family that lives next door. And a wonderful catholic family on the other side. I do not hate either one of them. We bbq all the time, and spend alot of time together. We disagree on things, much like we do on here. The difference is they do not say I hate them because I disagree with them. Nor do I hate them because they disagree with me.

The roman church is the only church I know of (extremist islam is getting just as bad) who does the following to all who disagree with them.

1. Say they protest the church
2. They are not part of the true church
3. They hate us
4. They are trying to convert us


I could go on and on.

You claim we all hate. Maybe you should look in the mirror, And you can see where alot of the anger against your church comes from.

I am not angry. I just love discussing Gods word. Oh wait I forgot. We should not do that and leave that the the experts. (rolls eyes)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

True. It's a relationship with Him.
But there IS a CatholicChat.com

If they go there, I promise not to follow and cause problems.

Don't bother. I was asking a few catholics and orthodox here a question about a verse they love to use. And one of them asked me to go to catholic.com to ask people there who are more knowledgeable. Which I hesitated to do, but did not want to seem like a hater. And as usual I got banned for being a catholic hater and trying to convert them, which I did neither of.

It is like they are afraid to let anyone discuss Gods word. It is not the first time this happened to me. When I was trying to discuss john 6 with a few catholics they did the same, When I went to the place they asked me to go. Their "knowledgeable" person did not discuss anything with me, Just called me a heretic of the worst kind sent from satan, and told his followers to not listen to anything I said.

Sad state of affairs.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But we also belong here. This is Christian Chat. And we are Christian. Why would we not be welcome here?

I do agree with this. All denominations even catholic should be welcomed on a christian chat. No one should hate anyone.

 

[dscherck]

I guess you could say they learn from the ones who started it. It was the roman church who ruled with an iron thumb with hatred and disdain for everyone who did not agree with them. I guess its alright when you did it. But not ok for everyone else? One could say your getting back what you did for over 1000 years.

You keep talking about Catholic ruling people with an iron thumb and hatred. Were there disgraceful incidents? Of course, we're human and the Lord warned that there would be wolves among the flock. But those are the minority in history. The point is, it's not alright for ANYONE to look down on others with hatred and disdain.

The funny thing is most people are NOT hating on you. I have a muslim family that lives next door. And a wonderful catholic family on the other side. I do not hate either one of them. We bbq all the time, and spend alot of time together. We disagree on things, much like we do on here. The difference is they do not say I hate them because I disagree with them. Nor do I hate them because they disagree with me.

The roman church is the only church I know of (extremist islam is getting just as bad) who does the following to all who disagree with them.

1. Say they protest the church
2. They are not part of the true church
3. They hate us
4. They are trying to convert us

1) So you're not protesting the beliefs of the Catholic Church?
2) A demonstrable falsehood. The Catholic Church has been quite clear that Protestants ARE members of the Church. We may not fully understand, but there have been numerous OFFICIAL statements from the Catholic Church that acknowledge the validity of Protestant baptisms, acknowledge their zeal and love for the Scriptures, and also acknowledge that the Holy Spirit is moving in some ways. While we do think that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth, we certainly don't deny that the Protestant communities are somehow joined with us in some way.
3) As mentioned above, there's numerous OFFICIAL documents from the Catholic Church acknowledging the validity of Protestant baptisms, etc. These same documents also go on and on about the joy we find in your zeal for the Lord. We don't hate Protestants, heck, I WAS Protestant! The Catholic Church does NOT hate the Protestants. We love you and want to share the fullness of Truth with you. We want you to become closer to Our Lord.
4) And you're not? What Catholics want is for Protestants to grow closer to Our Lord. We want to help you experience the closeness found in the Eucharist. We want only to help you grow even more in love with Our Lord Jesus. That's all.

I could go on and on.

You claim we all hate. Maybe you should look in the mirror, And you can see where alot of the anger against your church comes from.

I am not angry. I just love discussing Gods word. Oh wait I forgot. We should not do that and leave that the the experts. (rolls eyes)

You're not angry? You sure seem angry. You seem contemptuous of our beliefs, you think that we should discount the opinions of people who knew the apostles directly, and that we Catholics have actively destroyed documentation of people opposing our views. You keep making claims against the Catholic Church that are demonstrably false. And when we point these things out, you call us hateful. You tell us that our opinions are invalid, that our interpretations of the Scriptures are invalid. In this very thread, we are accused of being sent by Satan! And we have to put up constantly with the implications that we are not Christian, that we don't belong here on a CHRISTIAN chat.

So yeah, there may be an impression that some people hate us here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/b]You keep talking about Catholic ruling people with an iron thumb and hatred. Were there disgraceful incidents? Of course, we're human and the Lord warned that there would be wolves among the flock. But those are the minority in history. The point is, it's not alright for ANYONE to look down on others with hatred and disdain.

Your right. But it is not me who claims the catholic church hates me. It is those in the Catholic church who states everyone who disagrees with them hates them. Look at what the guy said. I here this so many times it amazes me. Does it mean people do not hate Catholics? No. There are haters everywhere. But it does not mean everyone who disagrees with catholic doctrines hates all Catholics. Yet this is evidently what all, or most Catholics believe, (at least the MANY I have encountered) The term "protestant" in itself referes to the fact that all who do not agree with the roman church hates them, and are thus protesting them.

1) So you're not protesting the beliefs of the Catholic Church?

No I am not. I have studied Gods word. and I get my belief from the word of God. I did not go look at Catholic doctrine, decide I do not believe and protest it. A person who protests something studies what the thing they are protesting and then decides they disagree and protests. I did not even know what catholics believed in many doctrines until about 10 years ago. So How could I protest something I never even knew. Why do you think everyone is against you?

2) A demonstrable falsehood. The Catholic Church has been quite clear that Protestants ARE members of the Church. We may not fully understand, but there have been numerous OFFICIAL statements from the Catholic Church that acknowledge the validity of Protestant baptisms, acknowledge their zeal and love for the Scriptures, and also acknowledge that the Holy Spirit is moving in some ways. While we do think that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth, we certainly don't deny that the Protestant communities are somehow joined with us in some way.
3) As mentioned above, there's numerous OFFICIAL documents from the Catholic Church acknowledging the validity of Protestant baptisms, etc. These same documents also go on and on about the joy we find in your zeal for the Lord. We don't hate Protestants, heck, I WAS Protestant! The Catholic Church does NOT hate the Protestants. We love you and want to share the fullness of Truth with you. We want you to become closer to Our Lord.
4) And you're not? What Catholics want is for Protestants to grow closer to Our Lord. We want to help you experience the closeness found in the Eucharist. We want only to help you grow even more in love with Our Lord Jesus. That's all.

So tell me, How many gospels are there? I thought there is just one. Does God receive differing gospels? If the catholic church, and all their sacraments, are the true church (along with Orthodox who from what I see follow the same sacramental system) then there is no other church. All other churches are doomed to hell because they follow a different gospel.

PS. I am very close to God. I have a personal relationship with him. I would not get any closer to God following catholic tradition.

You're not angry? You sure seem angry. You seem contemptuous of our beliefs, you think that we should discount the opinions of people who knew the apostles directly, and that we Catholics have actively destroyed documentation of people opposing our views. You keep making claims against the Catholic Church that are demonstrably false. And when we point these things out, you call us hateful. You tell us that our opinions are invalid, that our interpretations of the Scriptures are invalid. In this very thread, we are accused of being sent by Satan! And we have to put up constantly with the implications that we are not Christian, that we don't belong here on a CHRISTIAN chat.

So yeah, there may be an impression that some people hate us here.

No, See your not even listening to what I say. It is YOU WHO CLAIM I AM FALSE because of History. It is YOU WHO CLAIM MY BELIEF IS NEW. It is YOU WHO STATE I SHOULD FOLLOW YOUR CHURCH. I am refuting your arguments. I am not hating on you. I am trying to show you why I can not believe your arguments. And this makes me angry at you and your church?

If someone come to you and tells you this is what they believe and why. And you tell them sorry but you can not believe what they believe and the reason why you can't is because you disagree with their arguments and this is why. It does not mean you hate them or are angry with them. It means you are explaining to them why you can not believe as they do.

No my friend, it is you who are angry with me, because I disagree with your arguments. And thus I "protest" your believe and hate you. Which is FAR from the truth. I hate no one.

 

[Rosewater]

Thanks dscherck and SantoSubito for your knowledgeable support, and thanks to those that were welcoming in their remarks. I looked up Sola Scriptura and it explains a lot to me about where the majority of the participants are coming from here. We cannot deny that it was by the less than biblical and ideal practices of the Catholic church that led to the divisions in the first place. I have found a catholic community website but will stay on here too.