Which Delivered Us from the Wrath to Come. (1Th 1:10)

[GaryA]

Jesus is the One opening the seals.

That is correct -- and, the fact that Jesus is opening the seals - and, the fact that Jesus is the only one worthy to open the seals -- has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with "who dishes out the misery"...

Unlike the Trumpets and Vials, the Seals are not each directly associated with specific 'events' where "some kind of misery is dished out" upon the world.

Go read post #81 in this thread over and over until you understand that the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are each different and unique in their own right - each having its own purpose in the plan of God.

 

[GaryA]

when Jesus has us looking/searching to add to what He has already taught us, we must have an open-mind,
discerning and receptive to those whom He has as teachers of what we are yet to learn...

when there is so much 'confusion' about a Biblical concept, sometimes it is just best if we Love and Leave...

It "just wears me out" watching two "factions" representing two extremes "going at it so furiously" while knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that the truth is in between the two extremes.

No one seems to be able to "move across the scale" - even a little bit - away from the extreme that has "swallowed them up whole" -- enough to even allow themselves to consider anything outside of the extreme position that they hold.

I say that - some of the prophecy is fulfilled - some of the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

I am not a preterist - but, I know beyond a shadow of any doubt whatsoever that Luke 21:20-24 is referring to circa 70 A.D. and continuing beyond.

All of you "futurists" would do well to consider how this could actually be true and not "break" the whole of everything you believe in.

And, when you study Revelation, you need to understand that the prophecy is on God's timeline and not that of man.

It is not all future events -- some of it is past history - some of it is future.

Revelation 13:7 is talking about the past.

Revelation 13:8 is talking about the future.

How do we know this?

Indeed...

 

[presidente]

You are correct here in that, the identity of the two witnesses is not disclosed. However, it is plausible that the two witness could be Enoch and Elijah, both of whom never physically died.



==========================================
Oh, but scripture does say that the church will be in heaven during the tribulation.

"Hallelujah!

For our Lord God, the Almighty, reigns.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory.

For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.

She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”
==========================================

In the scripture above, the bride which is another moniker representing the church, is seen in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb. She is given fine linen, white and clean to wear. Then following in v. 14, we see the armies of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that the bride will have been given at the wedding feast and will be following the Lord out of heaven to the earth. Consequently, in order for the bride/church to follow the Lord out of heaven, she would already have to be in heaven.

Luke describes the 'men' at the tomb at the resurrection of Christ as wearing white also. In II Thessalonians, we read that Christ will return with His holy angels. He will give the church rest when he returns with the angels. The resurrection occurs at or immediately before the rapture. In I Corinthians 14 says the dead will be made alive at His coming. It doesn't say they will be made alive seven years before His coming. I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture at His coming. II Thessalonians 2 says that that wicked will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming.

"They (the beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.” - Rev.17:14

How do you see this as evidence of pretrib rapture?

The scripture above also supports the truth that the church (called, chosen and faithful followers) will be coming out of heaven and returning to the earth with the Lord to conquer the beast and the kings of the earth.

Do you think the beast and the kings of the earth will be up in heaven to do the fighting? If the fighting takes place on earth, this doesn't support a pre-trib rapture.

God's wrath poured out on Christ = wrath of God no longer rests upon believers

Persecution on earth does not mean God is angry with the saints. Do you think God has wrath toward the saints here during the tribulation? Why would the Bible say such good things about them if God were wroth with them?

Since God's wrath has been satisfied for the believer, then we cannot and will not go through the time of God's wrath

God's wrath is His anger, not a time period. If it is a time period, you have a problem with your theory because the believers still exist in heaven in your theory during this time period.

If you will notice, in chapters 1 thru 3, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times. Within those same chapters you never see the word "hagios" translated as "saints." Then, after the end of chapter 3, the word church is never used again and never appears within the narrative of God's wrath.

The book of Revelation only uses 'church'/'ekklesia' in reference to assemblies in cities, those churches that literally assembles. Paul uses the term to refer to what might be called 'the church throughout time and space.' Paul does refer to the church being on the earth when Christ returns executing vengence on them that know not God. So the Bible does speak of the church being here during that time, just not the book of Revelation. It refers to the saints as 'saints' during that time.

The word used after the end of chapter 3 is hagios/saint, which is referring to the great tribulation saints who will be those who will put their trust in Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. The changing of these two words is no coincidence, but is a God given clue.

What kind of clue is given by using the word 'church' in II Thessalonians 1? And why would you think God is angry with the tribulational saints?

As previously stated, the church cannot and will not go through God's wrath because Jesus already satisfied it on behalf of every believer.

If the saints mentioned in the book of Revelation overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, why would you think Jesus would not have satisfied God's wrath on their behalf? Why would you think they were appointed unto wrath, that God would be angry at them?

It would not be in God's nature to punish the righteous with the wicked, which is what would happen if the church were to be on the earth during the time of God's wrath.

Why would you think these people are unrighteous?

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Speaking of this unprecedented time of God's wrath, not understanding the severity and magnitude of it. And not understanding who God's wrath is reserved for, are some of the main reasons that people claim that the Lord is going to first put His bride through His wrath and then gather her after.

This sounds a little bit like the logical fallacy of the argument based of fear. For example.

"The doctor says I have cancer. If I had cancer, that would be scary. Therefore, I do not have cancer."

or

"Some people think people in the church will have to go through the great tribulation, but that would be scary, so we will get rapture out first."

What about those tribulational saints? If the times are so tough, how is toughness of the times not proof that those saints won't go through the tribulation?

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

Why would you think God will be punishing the tribulational saints? Why would you think they are wicked?

 

[Guojing]

To all futurists,

Can anyone give me one verse that places a long (2000+ year) between the NT prophesies and their fulfillment, other than Rev 20?? I can provide many passages that speak to the immanency of these prophesies.

You need to to understand mid acts dispensationalism, before you can understand why is there such a long gap.

When Jesus was telling the Jews in Matthew 24 about the current generation will not taste death before they see those, he was talking about OT prophecy, where the Tribulation was suppose to start very soon after he resurrected and ascended to heaven. That was what Peter and the others were expecting in early Acts, see Acts 2 when Peter quoted Joel.

But God interrupted the prophecy program to reveal the mystery of the grace dispensation, the BUT NOW phrase that Paul often used in Romans-Philemon.

So that Tribulation was postponed.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

To all futurists,

Can anyone give me one verse that places a long (2000+ year) between the NT prophesies and their fulfillment, other than Rev 20?? I can provide many passages that speak to the immanency of these prophesies.

I endeavored to provide this in the post I made at this link:

https://christianchat.com/threads/is-there-a-1007-year-gap-between-the-rapture-and-the-day-of-god’s-wrath-not-exactly.191459/post-4215894


[I hope the readers will view that post carefully ^ ]


____________

I've also gone over this in the past with you (I think), about how Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 (His 2nd Coming to the earth / "RETURN") parallels the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], which has A TIME PERIOD that separates THAT (the FIRST one) from that of the SECOND "PUNISH" word (setting/subject) in/of that text... IOW, identical to Revelation 19 being followed by a TIME PERIOD before the FINAL carrying out of the sentence [of "PUNISHMENT"] at the [SEQUENTIALLY-]later GWTj point in time... not to mention the SAME SEQUENCE revealed in other passages

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT: that second example ^ was in view of a DIFFERENT convo (I'm not sure if it was with you, or with someone else)... Sorry!


I perhaps should have provided a different example... the one I've posted about regarding how Luke 21:32's "ALL" must also INCLUDE that which v.24's contents/subject matter had JUST spelled out (which are lengthy things), especially in view of Acts 3:21 (I mention briefly in that other linked-post, I think), and how the two distinct aspects of the Olivet Discourse have their ENDS/OUTCOMES being entirely OPPOSITE things (won't repeat that post here, but can try to find that later, if requested), but basically, "and [they] shall be led away captive into all the nations" (being OPPOSITE to) their being "gathered" TO THERE (per the parallel of Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:12-13 "GREAT trumpet" / His Second Coming to the earth [NOT "our Rapture" point in time]).

 

[Kolistus]

You need to to understand mid acts dispensationalism, before you can understand why is there such a long gap.

When Jesus was telling the Jews in Matthew 24 about the current generation will not taste death before they see those, he was talking about OT prophecy, where the Tribulation was suppose to start very soon after he resurrected and ascended to heaven. That was what Peter and the others were expecting in early Acts, see Acts 2 when Peter quoted Joel.

But God interrupted the prophecy program to reveal the mystery of the grace dispensation, the BUT NOW phrase that Paul often used in Romans-Philemon.

So that Tribulation was postponed.

I am not mid acts dispensationalist (that I know of) but I agree with what you said here.

 

[PlainWord]

You need to to understand mid acts dispensationalism, before you can understand why is there such a long gap.

When Jesus was telling the Jews in Matthew 24 about the current generation will not taste death before they see those, he was talking about OT prophecy, where the Tribulation was suppose to start very soon after he resurrected and ascended to heaven. That was what Peter and the others were expecting in early Acts, see Acts 2 when Peter quoted Joel.

But God interrupted the prophecy program to reveal the mystery of the grace dispensation, the BUT NOW phrase that Paul often used in Romans-Philemon.

So that Tribulation was postponed.

God postponed the tribulation by 2,000 years? Do you have a passage which supports this notion???

Nothing was postponed. The relevant passages state that the great tribulation was to occur in and around Jerusalem/Judea. It was to begin soon after many of the disciples were killed (except John as history tells us). Armies would surround Jerusalem (Lk 19, 21) and their city would be leveled along with the people. They would suffer horrific agony in the process. All of this happened in 70 AD. 92-93% of all Jews were dead by the end of 70 AD. All of the priests who rejected God were killed by the end of 70 AD.

If the passages you rely on deal with future events, where are the passages that discuss the 70 AD events. Are we to think the Bible would spend so much time on the history of Israel but almost entirely ignore it's demise?

 

[PlainWord]

I endeavored to provide this in the post I made at this link:

https://christianchat.com/threads/is-there-a-1007-year-gap-between-the-rapture-and-the-day-of-god’s-wrath-not-exactly.191459/post-4215894


[I hope the readers will view that post carefully ^ ]


____________

I've also gone over this in the past with you (I think), about how Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 (His 2nd Coming to the earth / "RETURN") parallels the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], which has A TIME PERIOD that separates THAT (the FIRST one) from that of the SECOND "PUNISH" word (setting/subject) in/of that text... IOW, identical to Revelation 19 being followed by a TIME PERIOD before the FINAL carrying out of the sentence [of "PUNISHMENT"] at the [SEQUENTIALLY-]later GWTj point in time... not to mention the SAME SEQUENCE revealed in other passages

Where is the massive gap found in any of those Hosea passages? Where does it switch from the time of the cross, jumping past 70 AD and the utter destruction of disbelieving apostate Israel, ignoring the Crusades, and the mass death events of the Black Plague, the Hundred Year's War, the Thirty Years War where the church literally slaughtered itself over doctrinal disputes (Catholics v Protestants), jumped past the founding of America, our Civil War, WWI and WWII to the present day? Where is the mention of nuclear weapons, of space travel, of all of our modern accomplishments? Why aren't these things mentioned as "signs of the end?"

Instead, the signs of the end were all first century things, i.e., people sleeping on rooftops (No A/C), people working the fields. Death of the disciples, etc. Not one mention of anything relative to our times. Why doesn't it say, "Don't go back to your office to get your laptop?"

Everything was given in the second person:

you will hear of wars and rumors of wars.
See that you are not troubled;
they will deliver you up to tribulation
and kill you,
and you will be hated by all nations
Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation
And pray that your flight may not be in winter
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!
Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert

Jesus doesn't say things things will happen to your children or grandchildren or happen 100 generations later. They will happen to you!! Were they delivered up to tribulation? Were they hated by all nations? Where they killed?

 

[Guojing]

God postponed the tribulation by 2,000 years? Do you have a passage which supports this notion???

Nothing was postponed. The relevant passages state that the great tribulation was to occur in and around Jerusalem/Judea. It was to begin soon after many of the disciples were killed (except John as history tells us). Armies would surround Jerusalem (Lk 19, 21) and their city would be leveled along with the people. They would suffer horrific agony in the process. All of this happened in 70 AD. 92-93% of all Jews were dead by the end of 70 AD. All of the priests who rejected God were killed by the end of 70 AD.

If the passages you rely on deal with future events, where are the passages that discuss the 70 AD events. Are we to think the Bible would spend so much time on the history of Israel but almost entirely ignore it's demise?

Even Paul was expecting the rapture in his lifetime. 1 Corinthians 15:51

The point I was making is, only God the Father knows how long this current grace dispensation would last.

The interruption of the current prophetic time table and the beginning of the mystery grace dispensation has been stated in Paul's letters to the Body of Christ. You can refer to his points about

Time past
But now
Age to come

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Where is the massive gap found in any of those Hosea passages? Where does it switch from the time of the cross, jumping past 70 AD and the utter destruction of disbelieving apostate Israel, ignoring the Crusades, and the mass death events of the Black Plague, the Hundred Year's War, the Thirty Years War where the church literally slaughtered itself over doctrinal disputes (Catholics v Protestants), jumped past the founding of America, our Civil War, WWI and WWII to the present day? Where is the mention of nuclear weapons, of space travel, of all of our modern accomplishments? Why aren't these things mentioned as "signs of the end?"

Instead, the signs of the end were all first century things, i.e., people sleeping on rooftops (No A/C), people working the fields. Death of the disciples, etc. Not one mention of anything relative to our times. Why doesn't it say, "Don't go back to your office to get your laptop?"

Everything was given in the second person:

you will hear of wars and rumors of wars.
See that you are not troubled;
they will deliver you up to tribulation
and kill you,
and you will be hated by all nations
Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation
And pray that your flight may not be in winter
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!
Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert

Jesus doesn't say things things will happen to your children or grandchildren or happen 100 generations later. They will happen to you!! Were they delivered up to tribulation? Were they hated by all nations? Where they killed?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT to actually get the post out there (it didn't "take" the first time, LOL):

Where is the massive gap found in any of those Hosea passages? Where does it switch from the time of the cross, jumping past 70 AD and the utter destruction of disbelieving apostate Israel, [...]

The subject there seems to be "TILL they acknowledge their offense" and "will COME UNTO US as..."

and this is said to take place "after TWO days," and "IN the THIRD day" (from the perspective of His having already come and "RETURN TO MY PLACE 'UNTIL'..."... so from the time of His resurrection/ascension... His "going up" and His "SHALL SO COME *IN LIKE MANNER AS YE HAVE SEEN* HIM GO INTO HEAVEN"--when was THAT, according to your scheme of things?)

Are you thinking that passage refers to "two 24-hr days" ??

Everything was given in the second person:
you will hear of wars and rumors of wars.
See that you are not troubled;
they will deliver you up to tribulation
and kill you,

and you will be hated by all nations
Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation

the "proleptic 'you'" I've mentioned to you...

[...]
Jesus doesn't say things things will happen to your children or grandchildren or happen 100 generations later. They will happen to you!! [...]

When did you say they did the following? :

"And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit down upon His throne of glory [see Matt25:31-34 for its TIMING ! (not to mention its LOCATION revealed there ! )], you having followed Me, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel." - Matthew 19:28 (parallel Lk22:30,16,18 and those parallels in Matt26:29 "new with [G3326 - meta - ACCOMPANYING] you" and others I've listed out before...).


I have more... but the post seems to have had a glitch (so this is a redo)... will try to come back at a later time...

 

[PlainWord]

Even Paul was expecting the rapture in his lifetime. 1 Corinthians 15:51

The point I was making is, only God the Father knows how long this current grace dispensation would last.

The interruption of the current prophetic time table and the beginning of the mystery grace dispensation has been stated in Paul's letters to the Body of Christ. You can refer to his points about

Time past
But now
Age to come

We are in the "age to come" this is the point you are missing. The Law is gone, we are in GRACE. All dead believers up to 70 AD have been resurrected out of Hades, away from the spiritually dead. That's what "resurrected from the dead" means. It does NOT mean your old flesh body comes back to life, it means the captives have been freed from Hades and are now in Heaven. We see this in Rev 7.

When we die, we skip Hades and go straight to heaven. We don't get resurrected like they did. We skip from death to life without spiritually dying, that is being separated from God in Hades. The resurrection of the just was literally less than 40 years away when Christ taught this. This lesson is taught in multiple places but is perhaps clearest here.

See John 5:

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life (this is spiritual). 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

 

[Ahwatukee]

Luke describes the 'men' at the tomb at the resurrection of Christ as wearing white also. In II Thessalonians, we read that Christ will return with His holy angels. He will give the church rest when he returns with the angels. The resurrection occurs at or immediately before the rapture. In I Corinthians 14 says the dead will be made alive at His coming. It doesn't say they will be made alive seven years before His coming. I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture at His coming. II Thessalonians 2 says that that wicked will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming.

How do you see this as evidence of pretrib rapture?

(Part I)
First of all, in Rev.19:6-8, it is the bride/church who is in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen, white and clean and not angels. And then within the same context, verse 14 shows the bride/church wearing that same fine linen that she just received following the Lord out of heaven to the earth. In keeping with the context, these are not angels, but the bride of Christ, i.e. the church. So just because angels wore white somewhere else in scripture doesn't mean that these here in Rev.19:6-8, 14 are angels. Especially when it was the bride who in verses 6-8 was just given the fine linen, not angels. As additional support we have Rev.17:14 which states that as Jesus is returning to the earth to confront the beast and the kings of the earth and with Him will be His "called, faithful and chosen followers." These are not angels, but the bride/church who will have been resurrected and caught up prior to the first seal being opened.

Do you think the beast and the kings of the earth will be up in heaven to do the fighting? If the fighting takes place on earth, this doesn't support a pre-trib rapture.

Why would you say they that the beast and the kings would be up in heaven when the Lord is coming down to the earth to confront them? Pay attention to scripture and my posts! The fact that the bride is following Christ out of heaven demonstrates that they are coming down to the earth and not fighting in heaven. Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age with the church and angels with Him.

Persecution on earth does not mean God is angry with the saints. Do you think God has wrath toward the saints here during the tribulation? Why would the Bible say such good things about them if God were wroth with them?

God's wrath will take place for seven years right up until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. That wrath will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This time of wrath will begin after the church has been removed. As I said before, believers are not appointed suffer God's wrath in any capacity because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer. It is a legal issue. Since God's wrath has bee satisfied by the Lord, then it no longer rests upon the believer.

God's wrath is His anger, not a time period. If it is a time period, you have a problem with your theory because the believers still exist in heaven in your theory during this time period.

It is indeed a time period specified as being seven years in length. What do believers being in heaven have to do with God's wrath upon the earth? God's anger will be upon a Christ rejecting world. The righteous will be in heaven and will stand at the Bema seat to be judged, not for sin, but for our works whether good or worthless, where we will receive reward or loss of reward. During that time we will also attend the wedding of the Lamb and that because believers are the bride.

The book of Revelation only uses 'church'/'ekklesia' in reference to assemblies in cities, those churches that literally assembles.

The ekklesia is the church, period. The word ekklesia/church is not dependent upon living in a city. It represents everyone who belongs to Christ.

The truth of the matter is that, God leaves clues in His word. The fact that the word ekklesia/church is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then is never used again, is one of those clues. Rev.4:1 where John hears a voice like a trumpet, which was identified as the Lord's voice in Rev.1:10, which says "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this" is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church, which is why the word church no longer appears in the narrative. The word hagios/saint alone takes its place and is referring to those great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17.

What kind of clue is given by using the word 'church' in II Thessalonians 1?

There is no clue given in II Thess.1 regarding the church. It's a simple introduction at the beginning of Paul's letter. I think you have that mixed up with I Thess.4:16-17.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout and with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

That "trumpet of God" in the verse above, is synonymous with that voice that sounds like a trumpet in Rev.1:10 & 4:1.

(Continued)

 

[Ahwatukee]

Luke describes the 'men' at the tomb at the resurrection of Christ as wearing white also. In II Thessalonians, we read that Christ will return with His holy angels. He will give the church rest when he returns with the angels. The resurrection occurs at or immediately before the rapture. In I Corinthians 14 says the dead will be made alive at His coming. It doesn't say they will be made alive seven years before His coming. I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture at His coming. II Thessalonians 2 says that that wicked will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming.


(Part II)

And why would you think God is angry with the tribulational saints? If the saints mentioned in the book of Revelation overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, why would you think Jesus would not have satisfied God's wrath on their behalf? Why would you think they were appointed unto wrath, that God would be angry at them? Why would you think these people are unrighteous?

I never said that God will be angry with the tribulation saints during that time or that they were unrighteous. Those are your words. your assumption.

It is because they will not have been believers at the time when Christ comes for the church and will therefore be caught in that time period of God's wrath. If they had been believers prior to the resurrection, then they would not be great tribulation saints, but would have been resurrected and caught up as part of the church. Though they will give them selves to Christ during that time, they will unfortunately be exposed to all of God's wrath being poured out upon the earth and everything else that will be taking place. The beast will be given authority to make war and conquer them during that last 42 months, which is the last 3 1/2 years leading up to Christ's return to the earth. Jesus warns believes to be ready and watching for Him and not caught up in the world in drunkenness', sexual immorality, partying, etc. or else that day will close on them like a trap, i.e. they will not be gathered. God will be removing the church so that he can pour out His wrath upon all the wicked. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. You should know that from Abraham's conversation with the Lord on behalf of his nephew Lot and the fact that the angels postponed the destruction until Lot got out of the plain. Since God's wrath is going to come upon the inhabitants of the whole world, there will be no ark to escape in and no small city like Zoar to flee to. What is going to happen, is the Lord is going to keep His promise in John 14:1-3 & 1 Thess.4:16-17, to come back to get His bride to take her back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. Following that, the Day of the Lord will begin, which is the wrath of God. Jesus will return to the earth to end the age only after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This sounds a little bit like the logical fallacy of the argument based of fear. For example.

"The doctor says I have cancer. If I had cancer, that would be scary. Therefore, I do not have cancer."

What you said above makes no comparable sense! The fact that the elder is asking John who those in white robes are and where they come from, demonstrates that this group is not the church. In addition, John did not recognize this group, ergo, they are not the church but a different group.

Some people think people in the church will have to go through the great tribulation, but that would be scary, so we will get rapture out first."

It not about being scary-- which for those who enter that time period it will be--But it is about the underlying principle. As I previously explained to you--which you don't seem to understand--is that Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, which is also why we cannot and will not be exposed to it. If we were, it would nullify the wrath that Jesus suffered. People don't understand this principle nor the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath and these are a few of the reasons they believe that the church is going to be here on the earth for it. In actuality, they are not truly believing that Jesus suffered wrath our behalf.

What about those tribulational saints? If the times are so tough, how is toughness of the times not proof that those saints won't go through the tribulation?

I think that you are confused about a great many things young Skywalker! As I have been saying, those great tribulation saints will indeed go through the tribulation. Many of them will die keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not worship the beast, his image, nor receive his mark. This is how they wash their robes and make them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Why would you think God will be punishing the tribulational saints? Why would you think they are wicked?

Once again, you can check every post that I ever made and you will not find one place where I said that the great tribulation saints are wicked. They are simply a group who become believers in Christ after the church is gathered and will be caught on the earth in that time of God's wrath. As I said, this is why Jesus and scripture warns believes to be watching and ready. For if a believe has gone back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, sexual immorality, partying, drugs, etc., then they will be those whose lamps have gone out and who have no extra oil when the Bridegroom comes. God in His mercy saves those who believe in His Son after the church will have been gathered. Unfortunately, they will be exposed to all that is taking place on the earth.

God drew me to the study of end-time events when He first called me of which I have continued studying for over 45 years. I live in the book of Revelation. I know of what I believe and teach. And I know that Jesus as the bridegroom is not going to have His bride beat up first and then come for her to take her back to the Father's house. In your view, you would have the church punished right along with the wicked unbelieving world and that God's nature. It is by God's Sovereign will that there will be great tribulation saints and that because there has to be some to make it through the tribulation period alive in order to repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom. As it is, the remnant of Israel and the great tribulation saints (wheat) will be those who will still be in their mortal bodies and repopulate the earth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It is indeed a time period specified as being seven years in length. What do believers being in heaven have to do with God's wrath upon the earth? God's anger will be upon a Christ rejecting world. The righteous will be in heaven and will stand at the Bema seat to be judged, not for sin, but for our works whether good or worthless, where we will receive reward or loss of reward. During that time we will also attend the wedding of the Lamb and that because believers are the bride.

Don't neglect to mention the "believers" who will be coming to faith IN/DURING the trib years (who WILL be "on the earth" during the 7 yrs). I do not say they are "the bride/wife [singular]" (rather, they are "the guests [plural]," "the Bridesmaids [plural]," and the "servants / attendants [plural]" of that future specific time period, aka the 7-yr trib), yet they also BECOME "believers" FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... and these WILL exist in the trib yrs (some will "die" and others will go thru clear to the end of it as "still-alive" to ENTER the MK age [/'the wedding FEAST/SUPPER'] in their mortal bodies... like Daniel 12:12, for example, "BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days" [parallel about 8-9 other "BLESSED" passages speaking to SAME SUBJECT / SAME TIME-SLOT, like Rev16:15-16 and Rev19:9 (distinct from v.7) and Lk12:36-37,38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal... "BLESSED" etc] )

 

[Ahwatukee]

Don't neglect to mention the "believers" who will be coming to faith IN/DURING the trib years (who WILL be "on the earth" during the 7 yrs). I do not say they are "the bride/wife [singular]" (rather, they are "the guests [plural]," "the Bridesmaids [plural]," and the "servants / attendants [plural]" of that future specific time period, aka the 7-yr trib), yet they also BECOME "believers" FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... and these WILL exist in the trib yrs (some will "die" and others will go thru clear to the end of it as "still-alive" to ENTER the MK age [/'the wedding FEAST/SUPPER'] in their mortal bodies... like Daniel 12:12, for example, "BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days" [parallel about 8-9 other "BLESSED" passages speaking to SAME SUBJECT / SAME TIME-SLOT, like Rev16:15-16 and Rev19:9 (distinct from v.7) and Lk12:36-37,38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal... "BLESSED" etc] )

Hello Watermark,

Yes, this is what I have been explaining to Presidente in that, the saints mentioned after chapter 4 is in reference to those who will come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. That the church is mentioned 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then abruptly disappears. The word changes to hagios/saints which is referring to those who become believers during that time.

According to Rev.19:6-8, the wedding feast takes place in heaven during the tribulation, not on the earth. This is also supported by the following:

"I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

I believe the wedding--as well as the wedding feast--will take place in heaven.

The bottom line is, anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be put through God's wrath, does not truly believe that Jesus experienced it on behalf of those who believe in Him. They're not believing in what He accomplished for us. They have the righteous being punished with the wicked. Neither do they understand the severity of God's coming wrath, nor do they understand the purpose of God's wrath and who it will be direct at.

 

[Guojing]

We are in the "age to come" this is the point you are missing. The Law is gone, we are in GRACE. All dead believers up to 70 AD have been resurrected out of Hades, away from the spiritually dead. That's what "resurrected from the dead" means. It does NOT mean your old flesh body comes back to life, it means the captives have been freed from Hades and are now in Heaven. We see this in Rev 7.

When we die, we skip Hades and go straight to heaven. We don't get resurrected like they did. We skip from death to life without spiritually dying, that is being separated from God in Hades. The resurrection of the just was literally less than 40 years away when Christ taught this. This lesson is taught in multiple places but is perhaps clearest here.

See John 5:

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life (this is spiritual). 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

If we are now at the "age to come", what about the "but now" time period according to you? When did it end?

 

[presidente]

(Part I)
First of all, in Rev.19:6-8, it is the bride/church who is in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen, white and clean and not angels. And then within the same context, verse 14 shows the bride/church wearing that same fine linen that she just received following the Lord out of heaven to the earth. In keeping with the context, these are not angels, but the bride of Christ, i.e. the church. So just because angels wore white somewhere else in scripture doesn't mean that these here in Rev.19:6-8, 14 are angels. Especially when it was the bride who in verses 6-8 was just given the fine linen, not angels.

This is another example of how pre-tribbers reading into verses. Look at the context:

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The passage does not say the church is in heaven. The voice says 'hiw wife has made herself ready' not 'he has made us ready. The wedding is announced. It does not say the church is there yet. Jesus raptures the church at the parousia, according to I Thessalonians 4. The scene soon after this in Revelation 19 shows Christ on a white horse.

As additional support we have Rev.17:14 which states that as Jesus is returning to the earth to confront the beast and the kings of the earth and with Him will be His "called, faithful and chosen followers."

You are reading a lot into that verse, but since the Bible teaches the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at his parousia, this fits that teaching of Paul's as well as it does your theory.

Why would you say they that the beast and the kings would be up in heaven when the Lord is coming down to the earth to confront them?

That's not my theory. The saints meet the Lord in the air as He comes.

Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age with the church and angels with Him.

After the marriage supper of the Lamb is announced, we see the groom.

And this announcement.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

God's wrath will take place for seven years right up until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

Revelation doesn't say that. God's wrath is God's wrath. It is not a time period. Look up wrath in the dictionary.

That wrath will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This time of wrath will begin after the church has been removed. As I said before, believers are not appointed suffer God's wrath in any capacity because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer. It is a legal issue. Since God's wrath has bee satisfied by the Lord, then it no longer rests upon the believer.

That contradicts your theory since there are believers mentioned in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The ekklesia is the church, period. The word ekklesia/church is not dependent upon living in a city. It represents everyone who belongs to Christ.

It is used in the singular of a church in and a church in a house. When speaking of regions, the plural 'churches' is used. We see this in Acts and the epistles. Paul uses it in certain places to refer to the universal church, or the church throughout time and space, or to use the terminology of Hebrews, the general assembly and church of the firstborn.

Paul uses 'church' to refer to a local church at the return of at His parousia, when he comes executing vengence on them that believe not, when he comes to be glorified in the saints (compare to the terminology of Revelation.) The church will be raptured at Christ's parousia according to I Thessalonians 4, and the wicked of II Thessalonians 2 will be destroyed at the brightness of his parousia. Your theory does not even have the man of sin being revealed until after the rapture. That is not consistent with Paul's letters to the Thessalonians.

The truth of the matter is that, God leaves clues in His word. The fact that the word ekklesia/church is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then is never used again, is one of those clues.

Paul's direct teaching in II Thessalonians and directly using the word 'church' trumps guesswork based on supposed trues.

Rev.4:1 where John hears a voice like a trumpet, which was identified as the Lord's voice in Rev.1:10, which says "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this" is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church, which is why the word church no longer appears in the narrative.

If you are going to resort to such allegorical interpretation to try to squeeze a pre-trib rapture out of that verse, why go with a literal interpretation of Revelation at all? Why not just interpret the whole thing with the allegorical approach you are using on this verse?

There is no clue given in II Thess.1 regarding the church. It's a simple introduction at the beginning of Paul's letter. I think you have that mixed up with I Thess.4:16-17.

Paul tells the church they will receive rest when Jesus comes to execute judgment on them that believe not and to be glorified in the church.

 

[presidente]

I never said that God will be angry with the tribulation saints during that time or that they were unrighteous. Those are your words. your assumption.

It is because they will not have been believers at the time when Christ comes for the church and will therefore be caught in that time period of God's wrath.

So then God is not angry at them. They are not appointed unto wrath. If they can be hear during that time without being appointed unto wrath, then so could you or I.