Are they a wolf in sheeps clothes?

[Locoponydirtman]

I am ordained, yes. And joining this site was contingent because of this Covid-19. I rather enjoy seeing everyone's views, even those who purposely attack others for their beliefs. It has opened my eyes to many things. One being, how many use God as a platform to tear other Believers down. The other being, more insight to the specifics of Doctrines I have only been aware of and not familiar with. It definitely is an eye opener. Makes me wonder if we cannot get along on a silly internet platform, how do we think we are getting along in Heaven. Which furthers that thought that some here most likely believe they "are the only one's" who are going to Heaven. And that saddens me because they have fooled themselves by their own Doctrine which "does not" match the Doctrine Jesus Preached!

There are a few on here who do attack one another, but I think for the most part we debate and learn from each other.
How we will get along in heaven is that we will be perfected, and there will be no sin. With out our own flaws and failings, and without sin we will be in perfect harmony. Plus we will be in the presence of the Lord fully and completely, and he will teach us all things, including where we errord. We must keep our faith in him, we ourselves are not sufficient, He alone is.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

We are not against faith at all. I'm against unbiblical teaching about what faith is. Just because you speak it doesn't declare it into existence. Prosperity was never promised either. It is putting God as a waiter or Genie. People have spiritual gifts. Not everyone has the gift of healing or tongues etc. You can pray for healing but just because you believe it doesn't mean it is the will of God. To assume the will of God is dangerous.

I say look at the examples of the apostles. They were beaten and imprisoned and killed. They didn't ride around in snazzy chariots, and have gold rings. Peter said to one beggar silver and gold, I have none, but what I do have I give to you. And the man was healed. Paul warned against those who suppose the gospel is a means to financial gain.

 

[biker]

We are not against faith at all. I'm against unbiblical teaching about what faith is. Just because you speak it doesn't declare it into existence. Prosperity was never promised either. It is putting God as a waiter or Genie. People have spiritual gifts. Not everyone has the gift of healing or tongues etc. You can pray for healing but just because you believe it doesn't mean it is the will of God. To assume the will of God is dangerous.

Faith is not a spiritual gift, it is not something we are given, it is something we all have.
How can you accept Jesus as your Savior, you can only do so by Faith, but not practice Faith?

Faith is believing in what has not taken place yet (Old Testament people believed in the coming "Messiah")
Faith is expecting only what God can do (I can walk on water because Jesus showed us how)
Faith is unseen at the current moment (many Believers have been diagnosed with cancer to later have the dr. say not sure how but you are cancer free)

We can go on and on concerning Faith. Peter told the beggar, silver and gold have I none, but such as I have I give thee and the beggar was healed immediately.

I am not sure what your objection is to Faith comprises of, but Faith is spoken to us by every prophet, every Apostle, and most importantly, God Himself in the flesh.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I say look at the examples of the apostles. They were beaten and imprisoned and killed. They didn't ride around in snazzy chariots, and have gold rings. Peter said to one beggar silver and gold, I have none, but what I do have I give to you. And the man was healed. Paul warned against those who suppose the gospel is a means to financial gain.

Agree

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

First of all, I am not a Joel Osteen fan!

Jesus is about the NEW COVENANT, the D-B-R is how He changed the process. And what do you think a New Covenant is vs the Old? A NEW BEGINNING. Why are you nitpicking on something you should be applying?

His focus is on man's response, rather than what Jesus has done.

It is not picking nits. The job of the pastor is to point toward Jesus, and what he has done.

And, he has defeated sin and death at the resurrection. He rose triumphantly.

It's the difference between having a man-centered theology rather than a God-centered theology.

Which seems to be something you are pointing toward, too. You are pointing toward what I need to do, rather than what Jesus has done.

But, I expect this mentality from people who have a man-centered theology. This is the fundamental difference between Reformed theology versus free-willer theology.

Does this mean that I think believers should not be pursuing holiness? No.

However, if one is giving a sermon on Easter, the focus needs to be on WHAT JESUS HAS DONE. He has defeated sin and is the victorious one. It is an occasion for giving thanks for his conquering of sin.

Now, this can and should be accompanied by an evangelistic appeal to the unbelievers who might be in the congregation. That is traditional on Easter. But the fundamental focus is on what JESUS HAS DONE.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Faith is not a spiritual gift, it is not something we are given, it is something we all have.
How can you accept Jesus as your Savior, you can only do so by Faith, but not practice Faith?

Faith is believing in what has not taken place yet (Old Testament people believed in the coming "Messiah")
Faith is expecting only what God can do (I can walk on water because Jesus showed us how)
Faith is unseen at the current moment (many Believers have been diagnosed with cancer to later have the dr. say not sure how but you are cancer free)

We can go on and on concerning Faith. Peter told the beggar, silver and gold have I none, but such as I have I give thee and the beggar was healed immediately.

I am not sure what your objection is to Faith comprises of, but Faith is spoken to us by every prophet, every Apostle, and most importantly, God Himself in the flesh.

I didn't say faith was a gift but that we are given spiritual gifts. But just to clarify scripture does speak on two types of faith. Faith as a gift and faith that is responsible by mankind. If all had faith then all would be saved.

I'm not sure what your objection is. I agree on your words about faith.

But I am assuming you dont understand the doctrines of word faith or prosperity Gospel. You are misguided because that is how the false teachings get people. The doctrine uses much of the same language but twists the conclusions. I have nothing against faith.

I am against the doctrine of prosperity and word faith movements.

 

[biker]

Let me say this. I do not think it is wrong that a full time Pastor is given a salary, a place to live, and even a vehicle to drive. I am totally against it being a million dollar home, million dollar salary, and a rolls royce 200k vehicle. But if you are a pastor over 15 people or 100, the salary and gifts should be minimal. If your church groes to multi-thousand, I believe a raise is deserved.

What I am absolutely against is I have something, a Book I wrote, that is guaranteed to help you. All you have to do is give me a hundred bucks for it and it is yours. NO NO NO NO NO!!

That Book can be paid for by the church (publishing fees) and then given freely to anyone who wants it.

I am not against a Pastor living a comfortable life, but I am absolutely against the "for Profit" idea by those we see on television.

 

[know1]

The reason I tend to uplift a Pastor is because he is being judged greater than everyone else is. He is responsible for those souls who sit under him. I give them a break because if you are caught in a bar, people just shake it off. If a Pastor is caught in a bar, all hell is about to break loose. There is a "Double Standard" between a Pastor and a member of a church body. It would be wise if you learn this and never forget it.

It is not just pastors who are held under stricter standard by God, but those who teach God's word as well.

Jas 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

And who cares what the world says or judges, they are only hypocrites. Doing the very thing they condemn other of doing.
What matters is what God sees as sin and chastises or judges that person for.
One reason why a teacher of God's word is held to a higher standard than say a baby Christian, is the same reason why a child of God is held to a higher standard than a sinner.
They know more of what God likes and doesn't like, and what He sees as bad or sin, than the other one does.
The more one knows, the more that which he knows will be expected of him.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[know1]

Prosperity gospel, or word faith is false and who teach it are false teachers either by ignorance or intentional.

Is that what the bible says, or just you?

 

[know1]

You have to defend your claim. Ludicrous isn't a defense.

Wait a minute!!!???
I have to defend my statements but you don't?
You started out making ignorant assumptions, but you want me to be the first to prove my statements scripturally?
Okay, I will start with one for now.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach!!!!!!!;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If word of faith is a false doctrine, then why did Paul preach it to everyone?

 

[MattforJesus]

Hillsong, Bethal, and Elevation worship. All have in common a huge follower base drawn in by music.

This will be a debate forum. Share your thoughts with facts, evidence, and opinions.

Premise:
These bands are linked to the new age, millionale, prosperity, word faith, charismatic
theology. Their music is very shallow in theology but the churches behind it are as many claim theologically inaccurate.

Here are a few questions to consider.

1. How theologically accurate are the songs?
2. How theologically accurate are the churches that sponsor these bands?
3. Are these bands a serious threat to unite over or are they within ones conscious judgment?
4. Are they a possible stepping stone to mature theology? (Many people have started for example with Joel Osteen but graduated to local churches.)
5. Are they leading people to Hell or Heaven?
6. Lead pastor's of these churches are Brian Houston, Bill Johnson, Steven Furtick.

Conclusion:
Will you defend or debate against the topic of are these groups a wolf in sheep's clothing?

It is going to happen so of course they are worldly churches.

The Bible says that hypocrisy is going to increase among people that claim Christ.

If it is not those mega churches then who is it.

And America the way they operate are going to produce those hypocritical people.

So it is no wonder that they shall appear.

They display the world and then say it is of God, and this is according to worldliness, and the pleasures of it, and then say it is approved of by God.

 

[breno785au]

This Easter song by Theocracy has more heart than any of those church bands put together...

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Wait a minute!!!???
I have to defend my statements but you don't?
You started out making ignorant assumptions, but you want me to be the first to prove my statements scripturally?
Okay, I will start with one for now.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach!!!!!!!;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If word of faith is a false doctrine, then why did Paul preach it to everyone?

What are you talking about. I have been answering you. But your not saying anything I reject so I in my last post was wondering do you even understand what these doctrines teach?

Ignorant assumption claim isnt a defense either. Again that kind of faith is Biblical. Here I guess you dont understand the doctrine.

The core is this

At the heart of the Word of Faith movement is the belief in the "force of faith." It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what they believe Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God’s sovereign will and that God Himself is subject to these laws. This is nothing short of idolatry, turning our faith—and by extension ourselves—into god.

Unfortunately it gets more unbiblical with certain word faith preachers.

 

[Ella85]

To be honest I feel as these may be for the younger generation to get new followers to be interested in their church. Music is fun and inviting, so I can see where they are going with it. Although sometimes what they fail to understand is that it can take away from the bible and what God has taught us and how He wants us to worship Him. I have no problem with music but it needs to be done right and biblical.

Hillsong, Bethal, and Elevation worship. All have in common a huge follower base drawn in by music.

This will be a debate forum. Share your thoughts with facts, evidence, and opinions.

Premise:
These bands are linked to the new age, millionale, prosperity, word faith, charismatic
theology. Their music is very shallow in theology but the churches behind it are as many claim theologically inaccurate.

Here are a few questions to consider.

1. How theologically accurate are the songs?
2. How theologically accurate are the churches that sponsor these bands?
3. Are these bands a serious threat to unite over or are they within ones conscious judgment?
4. Are they a possible stepping stone to mature theology? (Many people have started for example with Joel Osteen but graduated to local churches.)
5. Are they leading people to Hell or Heaven?
6. Lead pastor's of these churches are Brian Houston, Bill Johnson, Steven Furtick.

Conclusion:
Will you defend or debate against the topic of are these groups a wolf in sheep's clothing?

 

[Diakonos]

Bethel churches believe and practice foreign and weird and cultic things like "grave-soaking" and "tarot cards".
Because of their popular influence, I don't allow Bethel Music at our church anymore. I made this decision about 2 months ago.
I'm not saying that all of their music is unbiblical, but enough of it is to make many Bible-reading Christians uncomfortable, and rebellious Christians deceived. Better to be safe and not associate with groups who do satanic things

 

[biker]

The core is this

At the heart of the Word of Faith movement is the belief in the "force of faith." It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what they believe Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God’s sovereign will and that God Himself is subject to these laws. This is nothing short of idolatry, turning our faith—and by extension ourselves—into god.

Can you give a short list of those who preach this?
Especially if they are television Preachers I can find on youtube making this "force of faith" claim.
I now see what you're getting at, but still am not aware of anyone doing as such.

 

[biker]

Bethel churches believe and practice foreign and weird and cultic things like "grave-soaking" and "tarot cards".
Because of their popular influence, I don't allow Bethel Music at our church anymore. I made this decision about 2 months ago.

Were you paying for the "rights" to use Bethel's Music or just using it?
I can see making a move to discontinue financing Bethel if you were paying for it.

 

[Diakonos]

Were you paying for the "rights" to use Bethel's Music or just using it?
I can see making a move to discontinue financing Bethel if you were paying for it.

No, but many young adult come into our church and easily assume that we condone entire groups and organizations because we played their music. Our leadership has discussed this in depth and are in unanimous agreement. Their music is ok doctrinally...Their teaching is worse. I.e. their music draws people in to come to their churches and then they're fed deceptions like:
-Kenosis
-Retanism
-Kenyonism
-Montanism
...and more

 

[biker]

No, but many young adult come into our church and easily assume that we condone entire groups and organizations because we played their music. Our leadership has discussed this in depth and are in unanimous agreement. Their music is ok doctrinally...Their teaching is worse. I.e. their music draws people in to come to their churches and then they're fed deceptions like:
-Kenosis
-Retanism
-Kenyonism
-Montanism
...and more

I definitely can see what you're saying.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Can you give a short list of those who preach this?
Especially if they are television Preachers I can find on youtube making this "force of faith" claim.
I now see what you're getting at, but still am not aware of anyone doing as such.

The founder was E. W. Kenyon, who studied the metaphysical New Thought teachings of Phineas Quimby. Mind science (where "name it and claim it" originated) was combined with Pentecostalism, resulting in a peculiar mix of orthodox Christianity and mysticism. Kenneth Hagin, in turn, studied under E. W. Kenyon and made the Word of Faith movement what it is today.

Study these folks and you will begin to see who is borrowing their philosophical and theological views.