Not By Works

[Micaiah-imla]

One of the biggest questions is obedience to what, exactly? Obedience to the written laws? Much of the NT seems to deny this. So what are we to be obedient to? Or better, who? And this is a dividing line because many who profess obedience aren't following the Holy Spirit, and that's where our obedience should be. And what does He confess? Nothing but Christ crucified and resurrected.

Obedience to the faith (Romans 1:5; 16:26).

Obedience unto righteousness, not sin unto death (Romans 6:16).

Obedience of your thoughts to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5).

Obedience to Christ.

Jesus said:

And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say? (Luke 6:46).

This would extend to the Bible as a whole since Jesus' words are God's words (John 14:24) and Christ came to magnify the law and make it honorable (Isaiah 42:21); moreover, Paul said that the we establish the law (Romans 3:31).

Make of it what you will.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree that the true believer will do whatever is necessary to remain faithful to God.

The only people who can reject anything are those who never accepted it. Those who have accepted something can only discard it.

It is not a matter of changing eternal life into conditional life; it's a matter of true doctrine verses false doctrine. Anyone who finds the pure doctrine in scripture and allows anyone to cause him to stumble in the truth of the Bible will be just as responsible for their actions as the false teacher at the judgment.

Ezekiel 14:
[10] And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeks unto him.

It's a serious issue. And both sides believe they are arguing the truth.

I appreciate your input.

It is still a question of eternal life (OSAS) proponents vs conditional life (nosas) proponents

Only one of them can be right, there are not multiple ways to heave, would you agree?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One of the biggest questions is obedience to what, exactly? Obedience to the written laws? Much of the NT seems to deny this. So what are we to be obedient to? Or better, who? And this is a dividing line because many who profess obedience aren't following the Holy Spirit, and that's where our obedience should be. And what does He confess? Nothing but Christ crucified and resurrected.

its a simple solution

The law of love

Anyone doing something out of love for another is obedient

Anyone doing it not out of love, is in sin.

I can be obeying a commandent of God, and still be in sin. Ie, I can be keeping the law and commandments and still be an unrighteous sinner. (in this example. the requirement of perfection is not in question. just a person who appears to be morally good because he doe not break Gods commands, But in reality, is not morally good at all. he just appear that way,)

 

[Micaiah-imla]

It is still a question of eternal life (OSAS) proponents vs conditional life (nosas) proponents

Only one of them can be right, there are not multiple ways to heave, would you agree?

Christ is the only way to eternal life. No question.

I do not view myself as a proponent of "conditional life", as you put it.

I view myself as a proponent of the truth, the Bible.

Do you see yourself as a proponent of OSAS?

 

[Bbrdrd]

Obedience to the faith (Romans 1:5; 16:26).

Obedience unto righteousness, not sin unto death (Romans 6:16).

Obedience of your thoughts to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5).

Obedience to Christ.

Jesus said:

And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say? (Luke 6:46).

This would extend to the Bible as a whole since Jesus' words are God's words (John 14:24) and Christ came to magnify the law and make it honorable (Isaiah 42:21); moreover, Paul said that the we establish the law (Romans 3:31).

Make of it what you will.

Definitely obedience to Christ, but some of what Christ said in the flesh points to a righteousness that goes beyond applying laws. His treatment of the woman caught in adultery, His pointing to David's eating the show bread, the manner He quotes Micah and Hosea all point to a relationship with the law that isn't strict application. Obedience to Christ requires us to shift our thinking and listen not only to words in a book but to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. And that goes well beyond simply reading verses and seeing how they apply.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Christ is the only way to eternal life. No question.

I do not view myself as a proponent of "conditional life", as you put it.

I view myself as a proponent of the truth, the Bible.

Do you see yourself as a proponent of OSAS?

I am a proponent of eternal life, Eternal Security in Christ.

Some would call that OSAS..

 

[Bbrdrd]

its a simple solution

The law of love

Anyone doing something out of love for another is obedient

Anyone doing it not out of love, is in sin.

I can be obeying a commandent of God, and still be in sin. Ie, I can be keeping the law and commandments and still be an unrighteous sinner. (in this example. the requirement of perfection is not in question. just a person who appears to be morally good because he doe not break Gods commands, But in reality, is not morally good at all. he just appear that way,)

I'd say this gets close, but its still not quite there. Certainly doing things from a motive of love is a part of obedience, but we must also be making positive steps. An example would be providing an addict with money may be done out of love, but because the action in fact leads to a destructive end for the person it would not be obedience. Obedience requires both a knowledge and sensitivity to the ends and a heart motivation of love. Through the law we learn what is best for man, and holding others to it is for their benefit.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Obedience to Christ requires us to shift our thinking and listen not only to words in a book but to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. And that goes well beyond simply reading verses and seeing how they apply.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost...he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26).

And the sword of the Spirit is the word (Ephesians 6:17).

The phrases "words in book" and "beyond simply reading verses" are a strange way of speaking of the Bible.

Especially when the scripture says:

Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God (Luke 4:4).

And Jesus often rebuked the Pharisees with "have ye not read?"

We are to desire the word to grow by it (1 Peter 2:2 KJV). Most other versions alter this verse.

 

[Bbrdrd]

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost...he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26).

And the sword of the Spirit is the word (Ephesians 6:17).

The phrases "words in book" and "beyond simply reading verses" are a strange way of speaking of the Bible.

Especially when the scripture says:

Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God (Luke 4:4).

And Jesus often rebuked the Pharisees with "have ye not read?"

We are to desire the word to grow by it (1 Peter 2:2 KJV). Most other versions alter this verse.

I have the utmost respect for the Bible, but it must be read with the Spirits guiding. Anyone can pick up the Bible and read the words, come up with contextual applications. But it must come alive for us, we must digest it and internalize it. To live Scripture not merely apply it. And this means seeing past the words to the heart of the Creator they reveal.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'd say this gets close, but its still not quite there. Certainly doing things from a motive of love is a part of obedience, but we must also be making positive steps. An example would be providing an addict with money may be done out of love, but because the action in fact leads to a destructive end for the person it would not be obedience. Obedience requires both a knowledge and sensitivity to the ends and a heart motivation of love. Through the law we learn what is best for man, and holding others to it is for their benefit.

i disagree

If we truly acted in love, we never would have given them money if it would be destructive.

The law can not show you how to be obedient, It was not made for that purpose.

The law says do not commit adultry

It does not tell you how to accomplish this

it does not tell you ever possible way you can break this law

All it was designed to do was to show a person who has committed the act. that they have failed to keep the law. And thus are cursed by the law. which is the purpose for which it was given. As paul said, by the law came knowledge of sin That's all it can do..

I tried to live y life by the law because that is what my church taught, I failed because it never helped me. And eventually I left the church because why bother.

After God called me back I look at the law of love, Not only do I no longer feel like a failure, I also do not have the same issues I had when I was trying to obey the law.. Because I am doing what jesus said, Not trying to obey a law which was never given to show me HOW to be righteous.

 

[Bbrdrd]

i disagree

If we truly acted in love, we never would have given them money if it would be destructive.

The law can not show you how to be obedient, It was not made for that purpose.

The law says do not commit adultry

It does not tell you how to accomplish this

it does not tell you ever possible way you can break this law

All it was designed to do was to show a person who has committed the act. that they have failed to keep the law. And thus are cursed by the law. which is the purpose for which it was given. As paul said, by the law came knowledge of sin That's all it can do..

I tried to live y life by the law because that is what my church taught, I failed because it never helped me. And eventually I left the church because why bother.

After God called me back I look at the law of love, Not only do I no longer feel like a failure, I also do not have the same issues I had when I was trying to obey the law.. Because I am doing what jesus said, Not trying to obey a law which was never given to show me HOW to be righteous.

The question here is how we understand the law. When I say the law I do not simply mean the commandments and statutes, but the entire narrative that contains them. It certainly doesn't show us everything, and as you said it brought sin to its full sinfulness but I don't recall Paul saying that was its purpose merely what happened when sin grasped hold of the law. We can only understand the law if we appreciate that it is part of the story of God's relationship with man and that through the law we discover the things that God considers righteousness.

And perhaps that's what separates you and I, I grew up with no discipline. I never tested the limits of love as a young child and by the time I came to I found that those who were supposed to be setting boundaries for me were too busy with themselves to do so. And so I came to appreciate the necessity of a law and its limits, because I saw what became of me when those limits weren't there.

 

[Rosemaryx]

I'd say this gets close, but its still not quite there. Certainly doing things from a motive of love is a part of obedience, but we must also be making positive steps. An example would be providing an addict with money may be done out of love, but because the action in fact leads to a destructive end for the person it would not be obedience. Obedience requires both a knowledge and sensitivity to the ends and a heart motivation of love. Through the law we learn what is best for man, and holding others to it is for their benefit.

That is where wisdom come in , Godly wisdom...
I would not give a drug addict money because I know I would be enabling him , but I would offer some hot food and a hot drink , and even a prayer if he/she was open for prayer...
...xox...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The question here is how we understand the law. When I say the law I do not simply mean the commandments and statutes, but the entire narrative that contains them. It certainly doesn't show us everything, and as you said it brought sin to its full sinfulness but I don't recall Paul saying that was its purpose merely what happened when sin grasped hold of the law. We can only understand the law if we appreciate that it is part of the story of God's relationship with man and that through the law we discover the things that God considers righteousness.

And perhaps that's what separates you and I, I grew up with no discipline. I never tested the limits of love as a young child and by the time I came to I found that those who were supposed to be setting boundaries for me were too busy with themselves to do so. And so I came to appreciate the necessity of a law and its limits, because I saw what became of me when those limits weren't there.

The problem I have is if we use the law to set our limits, or we are using the law to attempt to know how to be righteous. We are going to be setting ourselves up for failure.

If the law an not show us all sin, We can be following the law. yet still be sinful, and fully convinced we are righteous, when we are not. Thats what happened to the jews. and why, although they were considered morally good by the law. They were extreme sinners. And when we use it to set limits. If we think about it, we set our limits to low. it is limited to the law.

and yes, I am including the entire narrative,,

 

[Bbrdrd]

The problem I have is if we use the law to set our limits, or we are using the law to attempt to know how to be righteous. We are going to be setting ourselves up for failure.

If the law an not show us all sin, We can be following the law. yet still be sinful, and fully convinced we are righteous, when we are not. Thats what happened to the jews. and why, although they were considered morally good by the law. They were extreme sinners. And when we use it to set limits. If we think about it, we set our limits to low. it is limited to the law.

and yes, I am including the entire narrative,,

The pharisees weren't using the law to set limits, though. They were looking at it as being effectual in making them righteous and thinking they were indebting God by following it, that He would owe them for their sacrifices and their long prayers and the like. Jesus rebuked them for not following the law through making exceptions like when it was permitted to lie depending on what in the temple was sworn by. The law is not our guide for righteousness, but through it we discover the heart of what it means to be righteous. As Jesus said: "So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. "

The condemnation of the pharisees was never about the law the espoused, but that they used the law to put themselves into places of honor they didn't belong and to enrich themselves.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The pharisees weren't using the law to set limits, though. They were looking at it as being effectual in making them righteous and thinking they were indebting God by following it, that He would owe them for their sacrifices and their long prayers and the like. Jesus rebuked them for not following the law through making exceptions like when it was permitted to lie depending on what in the temple was sworn by. The law is not our guide for righteousness, but through it we discover the heart of what it means to be righteous. As Jesus said: "So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. "

The condemnation of the pharisees was never about the law the espoused, but that they used the law to put themselves into places of honor they didn't belong and to enrich themselves.

Your not getting what I am saying.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

I would not give a drug addict money because I know I would be enabling him , but I would offer some hot food and a hot drink

When someone asks me for money, if I have it, I will give it to them. This is for conscience toward God; because the scripture says "give to him that asketh of thee" (Matthew 5:42). The Lord did not place any conditions.

Here are some reasons for giving without questioning.

• This may prevent someone from being robbed by this person later.
• To not give because of what you think the beggar might purchase is to become a judge of evil thoughts. And charity "thinketh no evil".
• God gave you salvation without considering what you would do with it.
• Proverbs states to "give wine" to those with heavy hearts in poverty to forget their misery. This would cancel the concern one might have about what will be purchased with what you give.
• God gave this person breath and oxygen, why can't you do the least and just give some money?

In fact, if someone were to take from you, you are to let them take whatever they want and then some (Luke 6:29).

 

[Bbrdrd]

Your not getting what I am saying.

I see the danger you're speaking of, but it doesn't speak to what I've been saying. Yes, when we hold up the law we risk sending the message that righteousness comes through it. But that doesn't separate righteousness from the law, it just means we have to view the law with Christ as the lens. The law is still righteous and just, sin didn't change that. Yet it is just as we cannot allow the risk of licence dissuade us from preaching security so must we not let the fear of abuse of the law dissuade us from preaching obedience.

 

[Rosemaryx]

When someone asks me for money, if I have it, I will give it to them. This is for conscience toward God; because the scripture says "give to him that asketh of thee" (Matthew 5:42). The Lord did not place any conditions.

Here are some reasons for giving without questioning.

• This may prevent someone from being robbed by this person later.
• To not give because of what you think the beggar might purchase is to become a judge of evil thoughts. And charity "thinketh no evil".
• God gave you salvation without considering what you would do with it.
• Proverbs states to "give wine" to those with heavy hearts in poverty to forget their misery. This would cancel the concern one might have about what will be purchased with what you give.
• God gave this person breath and oxygen, why can't you do the least and just give some money?

In fact, if someone were to take from you, you are to let them take whatever they want and then some (Luke 6:29).

Like I said , we need to be wise...
I could not have my conscience that I gave someone money knowing they were going to use it for drink/drugs because it could be them pennies of mine that could cost them their last breath...

We are to be wise as serpents , and gentle as doves...

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Like I said , we need to be wise...

Give to every man that asketh of thee (Luke 6:30).

Hear ye, and give ear; be not proud: for the LORD hath spoken (Jeremiah 13:15).

They are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge (Jeremiah 4:22).

Love thinketh no evil (1 Corinthians 13:5).

 

[Rosemaryx]

Give to every man that asketh of thee (Luke 6:30).

Hear ye, and give ear; be not proud: for the LORD hath spoken (Jeremiah 13:15).

They are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge (Jeremiah 4:22).

Love thinketh no evil (1 Corinthians 13:5).

Yes I would give , like I said it is wise to be cautious...