Not By Works

[Micaiah-imla]

so the only way possible is for them to repent of their belief system and come solely to the foot of the cross. like the tax collector did

This is not a fair comment to make. Everyone will confess that salvation cannot be obtained without the cross. It's the "after" the cross part where there is disagreement.

And I suspect, like you and yours, believe we get our belief system from the Bible.

The question is:

How did each party reach their understanding of salvation in light of the complete testimony of the gospel as it is written?

That's the point that probably will not make a difference anyway though.

In my experience most people who spend a lot of time using many words to explain a simple Bible passage have been taught how to explain it that way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is not a fair comment to make. Everyone will confess that salvation cannot be obtained without the cross. It's the "after" the cross part where there is disagreement.

And I suspect, like you and yours, believe we get our belief system from the Bible.

The question is:

How did each party reach their understanding of salvation in light of the complete testimony of the gospel as it is written?

That's the point that probably will not make a difference anyway though.

In my experience people who spend a lot of time using many words to explain a simple Bible passage have been taught how to explain it that way.

sorry bro, I disagree with you

There are those who believe we obtain salvation at the cross

then their are those who believe we obtain salvation at the cross plus....

that is the focus of disagreement here

Justification is the issue, not sanctification

Since they believe we are justified by faiht plus works. They HAVE to believe we preach a license to sin. There is no way around it, unless the repent

 

[Phoneman-777]

i don't see a similarity here at all -- forgiveness is not 'for sale' and redemption is accomplished - price paid in full

The similarity between OSAS and the RCC is not "how" forgiveness for future sins is obtained, but that both claim it can be obtained, the former by a license and the latter by legalism.

when Christ hung on the cross, sir, every single one of your sins was 'future' -- He isn't crucified a second time. we're not 'adding sins' to His shoulders every time we repent of another one; 'by one sacrifice' He has made perfect -- taking upon His shoulder the iniquity of us all.

Agreed. He bears the iniquity of the saints, not former saints.

so the old practice of '

selling indulgences' was in fact predicated on the very same notion you are implying, which is, that sin is 'not yet' forgiven, not yet dealt with, not yet atoned for ...

So? Lots of false practices are predicated on true circumstances. The fact that the RCC allows advance purchase of forgiveness for future sins we intend to indulge doesn't detract in the least from the truth that Jesus offers forgiveness totally free to any saint who falls down on the Path of the Just but repents and gets up and continues on.

-- as though Christ must be crucified anew for every misstep.

Pretty sure Hebrews 6 says that the saints who fall away do that very thing. If your theory were correct, then Christ would never be crucified afresh because the saints' future sins are already forgiven, right?

this is why they said, here's an advance for you to go and sin some more, if you give us money.

And OSAS says, here's a license to go and sin some more, free of charge.

if the RCC in those days had been preaching the good news of a Savior who '

in one single day took away all our iniquity' ((re: Zech. 3:9)) then there would be no need to make merchandise of the future.

Verse 4 says iniquity is forgiven. Verse 7 plainly lays out a an 'if/then" condition going forward - "If thou wilt walk in My ways...then shalt thou judge...keep...and walk among those who stand by." It seems OSAS always wants plainly stated covenant conditions to be interpreted as just inconsequential suggestions.

the RCC, as you also, were making atonement '

contingent' on **extras** rather than resting in the finished work of the cross and the empty tomb.

The "extras" the RCC requires is "good works" in order to lessen one's time in Purgatory (God, moved by His satisfaction with Jesus' mission, bestowed the authority to forgive upon the priesthood to distribute freely as they see fit).

The Bible says no such thing, nor do I. The Bible says if we want to escape punishment, we need only to seek Jesus in confession and repentance, all of which is an exercise in thought, not works.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Since they believe we are justified by faiht plus works. They HAVE to believe we preach a license to sin. There is no way around it, unless the repent

I do not believe you or anyone who believes OSAS preach a license to sin.

But certainty you can see how some could come to this conclusion, right?

then their are those who believe we obtain salvation at the cross plus....

Well, is it not written that you are to be diligent in adding to your faith in order to make your calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:5-10)?

 

[EleventhHour]

I do not believe you or anyone who believes OSAS preach a license to sin.

But certainty you can see how some could come to this conclusion, right?



Well, is it not written that you are to be diligent in adding to your faith in order to make your calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:5-10)?

No one needs a "license" to sin

 

[Micaiah-imla]

No one needs a "license" to sin

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lawlessness...

Some do, and turn the grace of our God into a manifestation of it.

 

[posthuman]

Verse 7 plainly lays out a an 'if/then" condition going forward - "If thou wilt walk in My ways...then shalt thou judge...keep...and walk among those who stand by.

how about post the whole verse instead of selectively editing it to try to make it say something it doesn't say?

The Angel of The LORD gave this charge to Joshua: This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘If you will walk in obedience to Me and keep My requirements, then you will govern My house and have charge of My courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.' ​

(Zechariah 3:6-7)​

​

this isn't an "if/then" regarding removing sin.
this is an "if/then" regarding Joshua the high priest being given charge over the temple and its courts.


what you have done here, @Phoneman-777, by deleting some of the Bible to try to present it as something it isn't, is a classic example of what's called "perverting scripture"
doing this is what's called, "bad fruit" -- and we know it.

 

[posthuman]

So?

so?

really?

so you were 100% wrong to compare the old practice of the RCC of selling indulgences to Christ having atoned for all sin, past present and future.
so it is your belief, the belief that Christ's sacrifice on the cross is insufficient to cover sins not yet committed, that is actually in spirit identical to that wicked practice of the old catholics.

that's significant dude. it's not something for you to just brush off.

 

[EleventhHour]

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lawlessness...

Some do, and turn the grace of our God into a manifestation of it.

They did not need a "license" to do so... license implies permission, no permission is given

 

[VCO]

Ishtar, Babylonian fertility goddess. Jesus didn't come to start the Christian religion. Manmade religion is always combining the sacred and the profane. Demons know He died and rose again but they reject holiness, the Kingdom of God and the preeminence of the Holy Spirit. Sound like Christianity at all?

"Easter" has helped obscure what the fulfillment of Christ as our Passover is intended to do in our lives. We must come out of Egypt. We must come through the water. We must receive the pillar of fire/cloud, moving only at His direction, following Him wholeheartedly so that we can go in and take this Land of Promises found in the Word of God. His Kingdom must come. His will must be done on earth - and by us - just as it is done in heaven. The Lord Jesus didn't come for a day to be celebrated once a year, for buildings to be built, for children to wear pretty dresses and hunt fertility symbols in the tall grass. Satan tosses his head back in gleeful laughter. Jesus didn't come for us to sit in a pew an hour and a half a week and look at the back of someone's head, stand up, sit down, stand up sit down, listen to "the pastor" lecture and walk out until we do it again next week. It's all an inspired mockery.

The Bible is our Constitution. God tells us to pray without stopping, that His Word is always to be on our lips, to do nothing on our own initiative, to stop sinning, that a man's hair is to be short and woman's long. To eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. To be perfect. That the husband in the head of the wife just as Christ is the Head of the Church. That a church in a locality consists solely of men who are elders, of deacons (servers) and sheep. And on and on with many things "God's people" reject and that are alien to them.

Sola Scriptura. Jesus Christ is Lord and our spiritual act of worship is the presentation of our bodies to Him as living sacrifices. Yes, He is Head over ALL things for His (true) Church. Narrow is the gate and difficult the Way to life, and few are they that find it.

Acts 12:4 KJV

View attachment 214244

You do know that the KJV was a Paraphrase of the Older 5 or 6 early English versions, done largely to UPDATE the language and correct KNOWN ERRORS. Their Original Translation Team, admitted it in their PREFACE to the 1611 KJV. I see they inserted some errors too.

Acts 12:4 (HCSB)
4 After the arrest, he put him in prison and assigned four squads of four soldiers each to guard him, intending to bring him out to the people after the Passover.


http://www.ccel.org/bible/kjv/preface/pref1.htm

In that above website, look at the SECOND SENTENCE in SECTION 10.

SEE, is it not a TRANSLATION, it is a Paraphrase from the older English Versions, updating the language, correcting some KNOWN ERRORS, Missing some other errors, and added some PHRASES to the BIBLE. In other words, the exact same thing modern KJV Only people have ACCUSED the NIV of doing to the BIBLE.

1 John 5:7-8 (KJV)
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. {Added Phrases.}
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 John 5:7-8 (HCSB)
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do not believe you or anyone who believes OSAS preach a license to sin.

But certainty you can see how some could come to this conclusion, right?

No.

If we really look at it, All beliefs could believe this, They can just do whatever sin they want, and confess it, Or do some sacrament, or do whatever they think is needed for that sin to be forgiven, and they are ok..

thats why it is not a valid argument fr anyone to use

Well, is it not written that you are to be diligent in adding to your faith in order to make your calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:5-10)?

who said otherwise? But are we doing that so God can know we are serious. or so WEE can know we are serious. is it for Gods benefit or ours?

if we thin God needs to see it, so he can be sure our election and calling is true, then we have some serious problems, don;t we> Does that ot call Gods omniscience in question?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lawlessness...

Some do, and turn the grace of our God into a manifestation of it.

yep they did

why?

They never had faith,

They were what we call "play acting" trying to act like a christian so they can join the club, but in reality they loved their sin and lived in it.

THEY turned Gods grace to licentious, by denying it with their lack of faith

This is different than a person getting saved, Being filled and sealed with the spirit. then later falling into sin and losing salvation

 

[EleventhHour]

Fruit is the expected and obligatory sign that accompanies salvation.
Just as being wet is the expected and obligatory sign of having gone swimming.

Are you familiar with the two main 'signs' in the old covenant?

Just as physical circumcision was the sign of being born into the nation of Israel, so it is that spiritual circumcision (the putting off of the deeds of the flesh) is the sign of being born into the kingdom of God.

Just as Sabbath keeping was the sign of the obedient resident of Israel, so it is that entering into the spiritual Sabbath (rest from the taskmaster of sin) is the sign of the obedient resident of the household of Christ.

taskmaster of sin

How much sinlessness proves salvation?

How much sin causes the loss of salvation?

The fact is in your dogma, no person really knows when they have lost salvation.......... because God did not give a clear statement when this happens in scripture.

So all you have done, is give fear some nebulous, unclear line that cannot be crossed but no one really knows when one crosses that line ever.

 

[star]

Unfortunately this is true of all parties involved on CC. You do not mention the word law because then you have to do works to enter the Kingdom. Mention Leviticus and you open a can of worms. Thing is we all have truths and if we accommodate each other’s views we might come to the conclusion that we are actually agreeing more than we disagree. Satan is using this thread and website to sow discord amongst God’s followers and even if we are not doing it purposefully we are sometimes guilty of fitting the bill.

Even Peter was an instrument of that when Jesus rebuked him Matthew 16:23.

God bless friends

I'm on this thread because there are those here (as well as the owner of the thread) who believe as I do. It is comforting to me to be able to converse with one another of like minds about our faith. If you feel that this site and this thread is being used by Satan to sow discord and division, why are you on it?

Division and discord come about whenever false doctrine, twisting the Word of God, trolls and unbelivers posing as believers come on board.

 

[star]

I'm not going to stop being on this site because there are those who disagree with me and those who are giving false doctrine. I also will not get into arguments with those who malign my posts. A servant of God must not strive.

 

[Lightskin]

I know I am a sinner , saved by Gods amazing grace , and knowing His mercy and grace are new every morning reminds me that He gives this to us because we need it daily , and that comforts me Amen...
...xox...

This right here ^^^^^ is God’s Word in action. His spirit is alive in you, Rosemaryx, providing you comfort, joy and peace, and all of it in Truth. In turn you’re sharing the Gospel with others. I praise God for His love and your eternal joy.
😊❤️

 

[VCO]

The similarity between OSAS and the RCC is not "how" forgiveness for future sins is obtained, but that both claim it can be obtained, the former by a license and the latter by legalism.

Agreed. He bears the iniquity of the saints, not former saints.
So? Lots of false practices are predicated on true circumstances. The fact that the RCC allows advance purchase of forgiveness for future sins we intend to indulge doesn't detract in the least from the truth that Jesus offers forgiveness totally free to any saint who falls down on the Path of the Just but repents and gets up and continues on.
Pretty sure Hebrews 6 says that the saints who fall away do that very thing. If your theory were correct, then Christ would never be crucified afresh because the saints' future sins are already forgiven, right?

And OSAS says, here's a license to go and sin some more, free of charge.

Verse 4 says iniquity is forgiven. Verse 7 plainly lays out a an 'if/then" condition going forward - "If thou wilt walk in My ways...then shalt thou judge...keep...and walk among those who stand by."

It seems OSAS always wants plainly stated covenant conditions to be interpreted as just inconsequential suggestions.

The "extras" the RCC requires is "good works" in order to lessen one's time in Purgatory (God, moved by His satisfaction with Jesus' mission, bestowed the authority to forgive upon the priesthood to distribute freely as they see fit).

The Bible says no such thing, nor do I. The Bible says if we want to escape punishment, we need only to seek Jesus in confession and repentance, all of which is an exercise in thought, not works.

Now you have out did yourself. THREE bold faced, ABSOLUTE LIES about OSAS Theology, when we TEACH THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

Don't YOU EVER GET TIRED OF LYING ? ? ?

What does GOD THINK OF LIARS ? ? ?

Revelation 21:8 (HCSB)
8 But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars—their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Psalm 63:11 (ESV)
11 But the king shall rejoice in God; all who swear by him shall exult, for the mouths of liars will be stopped.

Psalm 58:3 (HCSB)
3 The wicked go astray from the womb; liars err from birth.

Psalm 5:6 (HCSB)
6 You destroy those who tell lies; the LORD abhors a man of bloodshed and treachery.

John 8:44 (HCSB)
44 You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars.

1 Timothy 1:10 (HCSB)
10 for the sexually immoral and homosexuals, for kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and for whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching

1 Timothy 4:1-2 (ESV)
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,

1 John 4:20-21 (NRSV)
20 Those who say, "I love God," and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen.
21 The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters also.

 

[Judges1318]

How much sinlessness proves salvation?

"in increasing measure" - 2 Peter 1:8

What I want to know is how many times I have to tell you this.
You keep asking this question and I keep answering it.

How much sin causes the loss of salvation?

Whatever amount of sin it takes to harden you to unbelief.

The fact is in your dogma, no person really knows when they have lost salvation.......... because God did not give a clear statement when this happens in scripture.

So all you have done, is give fear some nebulous, unclear line that cannot be crossed but no one really knows when one crosses that line ever.

Nobody knows at which point any one person will be hardened to unbelief by willful, unrepentant, or even careless sin.
We just know the Bible warns us to not let that happen.
The Bible shows us that the less firmly and deeply rooted the word of God is in your heart the more easily that word can be uprooted from your heart by love for other things, trials, etc.

If the believer is about increasing the word of God in his life he doesn't wonder where the line is, nor does he have to.

 

[posthuman]

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lawlessness...

Some do, and turn the grace of our God into a manifestation of it.

yes -- but note that they turn the actual grace of God into this.
they do not 'invent a false doctrine of grace' that doesn't exist; they abuse the truth.
God has wiped away our sin -- the reaction we have to that ought to be to do what's right, not go on being wicked and certainly not add more and more evil to our lives! but the fact that some react wrongly, and teach others to, does not destroy the redeeming work of God; it despises it.

 

[EleventhHour]

yes -- but note that they turn the actual grace of God into this.
they do not 'invent a false doctrine of grace' that doesn't exist; they abuse the truth.
God has wiped away our sin -- the reaction we have to that ought to be to do what's right, not go on being wicked and certainly not add more and more evil to our lives! but the fact that some react wrongly, and teach others to, does not destroy the redeeming work of God; it despises it.

"They abuse the truth"

Exactly!!