Luther is an interesting case. Certainly he revived a debate, but between his hatred of the jews and desire to throw out books of the Bible there is grounds for questioning if he truly understood grace. He is definitely a giant in the history of doctrine but the offspring of the reformation are rather mixed and the picture of God they present can be just as much of a distortion as the one presented by Catholics.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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Luther is an interesting case. Certainly he revived a debate, but between his hatred of the jews and desire to throw out books of the Bible there is grounds for questioning if he truly understood grace. He is definitely a giant in the history of doctrine but the offspring of the reformation are rather mixed and the picture of God they present can be just as much of a distortion as the one presented by Catholics.
Attacking OSAS has become an absolute obsession with you.Continuously attacking the OSAS doctrine, along with insulting and telling off OSAS believers isn’t helping your case.
Those on here who "attack", bully those of us who believe in eternal salvation once and for all, are trying to twist and turn our words to suit their own doctrine(s).
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Luthran still held to some of the churches sacraments, like the eucharist and baby baptism. among others.. so I have always questioned his true belief in faith myself
It seems to me the faith of all the reformers can be questioned on some grounds. The business of Michael Severetus certainly raises a specter of doubt for Calvin, for instance. It seems to me the only way we can know someone's eternal position is through confession of the Spirit, and that's rare. Those we're in intimate relationships with we can be reasonably certain given their dispositions and doctrines but neither proves a man has true faith to anyone but himself. Even our own doctrine may be in error no matter how solid it may seem to us. All we can do is preach Christ crucified and love each other as best we can.
2 Corinthians 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us
2 Corinthians 1: 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Isaiah 12: 2 Behold, God is my salvation. I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 8:38-39 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
I believe every verse.
2 Corinthians 1: 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Isaiah 12: 2 Behold, God is my salvation. I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 8:38-39 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
I believe every verse.
And they are FLIP-FLOP Artists, changing their story just like democratic politicians.
YOU FORGOT ONE THING. The works or deeds HAVE TO BE MOTIVATED BY AGAPE LOVE, after you were SAVED in the beginning.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
Loss of salvation not even in view.
No mention of the Lake of Fire .... again adding to the text.
No mention that each individual branch refers to people again adding to the text
He made the comparison to men for a reason... He did not state I will throw in the Lake of Fire
He speaking the useful of those branches.. to the vineyard keeper, they are not useful and burned.
Usefulness if the point.
It is about fruit and abiding... what is in us that in not abiding, falls and is burned. By abiding in Him we produce good fruit.
He bears the fruit..
If that's not good enough to you to prove burned agriculture metaphors are referring to the damned vs. the not damned, there is always this passage:
"7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation." - Hebrews 6:7-9
Fruitfulness accompanies salvation, not un-fruitfulness.
In the end, unfruitful land, trees, vines, etc. get burned in the fires of hell because, ultimately, un-fruitfulness signifies the lost person, not the saved person.
This wasn't even an issue 30 years ago.
Everybody understood that the sign of salvation is fruitful works of righteousness.
The new osas changed all that.
Now the necessity for fruitful works of righteousness in salvation is you trying to earn your own salvation in a boasting, self-righteous gospel.
Which James defines as the faith that does not work and which can not save a person.
Of course, a convenient 'new osas' doctrinal interpretation of what is saved by the faith that does work prevents the passage from meaning 'saved' as in salvation.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
The entire passage is about the vine dresser and abiding and how He supports the branches to bear fruit.
That passage is out of context and again not about eternal damnation.
Your problem is you are convinced there is only the osas way to understand these passages.
Hardly true.
I can understand these passages in light of non-osas doctrine which does not make them untrue, just understood in light of the whole counsel of scripture.
What is it about 'things that accompany salvation' that you do not understand?
In the end, fruitless, barren fields don't accompany salvation.
Fruitfulness does.
The passage says so.
So if you’re saved by grace through faith but don’t do good works do you lose your salvation?
