Not By Works

[miknik5]

That's not the point of Job at all. Job is to bring comfort to those who are suffering. It's a reminder that though we may not understand God has a plan. God is just and the innocent will be vindicated. Job is a book of hope.

Who will be declaring their innocence

The MAIN POINT of Job is this, sir...

THE HEDGE was (temporarily) removed...

It isn't a matter of innocence...it's a matter of understanding that it will not be by power or might...but by GOD'S SPIRIT...HE will, after HE is taken out of the way for 21 days, avenge, what is not in our power to avenge.

It is a matter of Isaiah 8, sir...and Daniel 11...the wise will understand and will wait...

You are professing that man, after the end of trials will somehow be able to profess themselves

 

[Bbrdrd]

Who will be declaring their innocence

Both the innocent and God. What Job spoke rashly about isn't that he was righteous and innocent, God declared that before Job was ever subject to the devil. Instead Job questioned whether there was such a thing as justice in the world. He doubted God and was reproved for that, but the basic thrust of his protests was vindicated.

 

[miknik5]

I'm well aware the gospel iis simple. God came and forgave our sins and for His righteousness was put to death. He was then vindicated by being judged and is the first of many. My issue isn't the gospel or lack of belief entirely. It's coming to accept that I haven't committed the unforgiveable sin. But regardless of my eternal position it is my duty to obey. Not for rewards or fear of punishment but because He is worthy of it.

Who was vindicated by being judged?

Are you implying CHRIST was judged and found innocent before GOD and is our forerunner to this?

 

[miknik5]

Both the innocent and God. What Job spoke rashly about isn't that he was righteous and innocent, God declared that before Job was ever subject to the devil. Instead Job questioned whether there was such a thing as justice in the world. He doubted God and was reproved for that, but the basic thrust of his protests was vindicated.

GOD answered him saying who are you that even question ME...who are you to open your mouth and even say ANYTHING...

That is what and why GOD answered him...before Job even opened his mouth, GOD did not say anything...Job was better off, waiting out his period of suffering trusting BY FAITH in GOD, that what he did not know at that moment, GOD was working out for his good....

The WORD of GOD does not contradict any of the whole of the WORD of GOD...everything...everything....everything...written in signs and representations and pictures and puzzles and symbols was ever and always pointing to ONE TRUTH and REALITY....CHRIST JESUS....

 

[Bbrdrd]

Who will be declaring their innocence

The MAIN POINT of Job is this, sir...

THE HEDGE was (temporarily) removed...

It isn't a matter of innocence...it's a matter of understanding that it will not be by power or might...but by GOD'S SPIRIT...HE will, after HE is taken out of the way for 21 days, avenge, what is not in our power to avenge.

It is a matter of Isaiah 8, sir...and Daniel 11...the wise will understand and will wait...

You are professing that man, after the end of trials will somehow be able to profess themselves

If you mean to imply that when we stand before God we will not be able to deny His judgment, what does that have to do with our declaration before men? Job's words were the ones God found truth in and he made intercession for all but one of the others. Job has to be understood through the paradigm of retributive justice of that time. It was taught that God/the gods rewarded the righteous and punished the guilty in the here and now so any suffering was proof in and of itself of wickedness. Job pleaded otherwise and when God appeared before him, he was vindicated.

 

[miknik5]

Obedience is good news. He is worthy, His justice is perfect, and He will judge the wicked. If you're righteous, that's great news. It's heartbreaking, but it's still great news.

This is not a good response to THE GOOD NEWS and THE GOSPEL of GOD...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's not the gospel Jesus preached.

But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Um yes it is

we seek first his kingdom by coming to him in faith, and receiving his gospel.

If anyone thinks they will seek it by being good. they are in serious trouble

 

[miknik5]

If you mean to imply that when we stand before God we will not be able to deny His judgment, what does that have to do with our declaration before men? Job's words were the ones God found truth in and he made intercession for all but one of the others. Job has to be understood through the paradigm of retributive justice of that time. It was taught that God/the gods rewarded the righteous and punished the guilty in the here and now so any suffering was proof in and of itself of wickedness. Job pleaded otherwise and when God appeared before him, he was vindicated.

What I mean to imply is that ALL MOUTHS will be silenced on that day...and no man will be able to say ANYTHING....that's why HIS WORD says all have sinned...and that there is NOW a RIGHTEOUSNESS made known which is by faith in JESUS CHRIST for all who believe...

 

[Bbrdrd]

Who was vindicated by being judged?

Are you implying CHRIST was judged and found innocent before GOD and is our forerunner to this?

In a sense. Christ was judged by men, deemed to be speaking blasphemy under their understanding of Deuteronomy 13 and condemned. Yet He was innocent and rose from the dead on that account. It is the resurrection that takes our faith, believing that God can raise a man from the dead despite the seeming permanence of the grave.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God doesn't contradict Himself, but there is tension between justice and mercy. We can't rely on our own understanding of the big or little picture, all we can do is decide whether we will trust Him in obedience or go our own way.

if we do not trust him in salvation everything you said here is a mute point

I think this is where the tension lies between yourself and others

You seem to focus on obedience, and not on salvation. Usually when this happens. it is because a person things they are saved by their own righteousness. Not saying you are. Just saying what is the norm.

 

[miknik5]

In a sense. Christ was judged by men, deemed to be speaking blasphemy under their understanding of Deuteronomy 13 and condemned. Yet He was innocent and rose from the dead on that account. It is the resurrection that takes our faith, believing that God can raise a man from the dead despite the seeming permanence of the grave.

This is not good, sir...your understanding of JESUS implies that HE was just a man, just like we are...and that HE did not come and dwell among us as Philippians mentions...

You do not believe that HE came forth from GOD for the very purpose to lay down HIS FLESH as a substitution for our sinful flesh...that there was no other way for man to come to GOD, if GOD, did not come down, in our covering, so that we might be called up and out of the world, and covered over in HIS COVERING...HIDDEN IN HIM...

You do not believe therefore that HE came down from HEAVEN to give life to the world.

You imply that HE was not from the beginning...what you do imply is that HE was a thought in the mind of GOD that he would come into the world, when the fullness of time might come..


Yet...the angels recognized HIM as the HOLY ONE...prior to HIS coming into the world

And HIS HOLINESS needed to be judged afterwards?

No...HE was and is from the beginning...THE HOLY ONE OF GOD...who came FORTH from GOD and into the world...

 

[Bbrdrd]

Um yes it is

we seek first his kingdom by coming to him in faith, and receiving his gospel.

If anyone thinks they will seek it by being good. they are in serious trouble

I'm not sure what you've read from me that you think implies otherwise. I simply don't think the gospel is what's commonly presented/understood. It is not that Jesus "paid the price" but that God forgives us our sins. Jesus ransomed us and that takes away the sting of death, but that cost was not God's judgment on men it was His judgment on sin. The good news is reconciliation can be had, we can return to God and He will lead us. Understanding that His stripes healed us should both grieve us and put us in awe of His majesty.

 

[Bbrdrd]

This is not good, sir...your understanding of JESUS implies that HE was just a man, just like we are...and that HE did not come and dwell among us as Philippians mentions...

You do not believe that HE came forth from GOD for the very purpose to lay down HIS FLESH as a substitution for our sinful flesh...that there was no other way for man to come to GOD, if GOD, did not come down, in our covering, so that we might be called up and out of the world, and covered over in HIS COVERING...HIDDEN IN HIM...

Not at all, not at all. That's why I put forward the question God asked Job. If we're honest, that's what the cross has us ask ourselves.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not sure what you've read from me that you think implies otherwise. I simply don't think the gospel is what's commonly presented/understood. It is not that Jesus "paid the price" but that God forgives us our sins. Jesus ransomed us and that takes away the sting of death, but that cost was not God's judgment on men it was His judgment on sin. The good news is reconciliation can be had, we can return to God and He will lead us. Understanding that His stripes healed us should both grieve us and put us in awe of His majesty.

The two go hand in hand God forgives our sins because Jesus paid the price

You can not have one without the other

He ransomed us by shedding his blood on our behalf.

As scripture says, He who KNEW no sin, BECAME sin on our behalf. that way may be made righteous through him (paraphrased)

 

[miknik5]

In a sense. Christ was judged by men, deemed to be speaking blasphemy under their understanding of Deuteronomy 13 and condemned. Yet He was innocent and rose from the dead on that account. It is the resurrection that takes our faith, believing that God can raise a man from the dead despite the seeming permanence of the grave.

That wasn't the reason HE rose from the dead...HE rose from the dead not on the account of showing that the men of the law were wrong...

HE laid down and took up HIS LIFE...and did so willingly for those who would believe....no man TOOK IT FROM HIM...

Further, the RESURRECTION was to show us THAT HE LIVES...that HE conquered death...that HE is indeed the SON of GOD, not in the human sense, but by THE SPIRIT, GOD...and HE, who came forth from GOD, opened the WAY for us...for all who come to THE FATHER, through HIM....by, and I repeat....ONE SPIRIT...

ONE SPIRIT, sir...

When was CHRIST of THAT SPIRIT...

Before or after?

 

[Bbrdrd]

The two go hand in hand God forgives our sins because Jesus paid the price

You can not have one without the other

He ransomed us by shedding his blood on our behalf.

As scripture says, He who KNEW no sin, BECAME sin on our behalf. that way may be made righteous through him (paraphrased)

The two go hand in hand, but not the way it seems you've been arguing it. The second sin in the verse you quoted does not mean He made sin a tangible object but that He became a sin offering. And our understanding of that has to come from the Bible which is presented in leviticus and has nothing to do with guilt. The penalty for sin was not a just penalty imposed by God but the unrighteous wages of a blind destructive force.

 

[miknik5]

If you were honest sir, you would have understood that all the rules and rituals and temple practices were simply shadows of ALL THE REALITIES found in JESUS CHRIST...

But you, by what you wrote, showed that you do not understand this...

I am trying to find your post where you tried to explain this...I will and repost it...

 

[miknik5]

Anyone who brings another "gospel"...which is not a gospel....

 

[VCO]

The two go hand in hand God forgives our sins because Jesus paid the price

You can not have one without the other

He ransomed us by shedding his blood on our behalf.

As scripture says, He who KNEW no sin, BECAME sin on our behalf. that way may be made righteous through him (paraphrased)

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[miknik5]

In a sense. Christ was judged by men, deemed to be speaking blasphemy under their understanding of Deuteronomy 13 and condemned. Yet He was innocent and rose from the dead on that account. It is the resurrection that takes our faith, believing that God can raise a man from the dead despite the seeming permanence of the grave.

No.