Is it a sin to drink alcohol

[WithinReason]

WRONG, buckwheat....

Cute kid, but I ain't him. And as for the correctness of my response, it is most accurate, even to the 't' of Calvary.

The host of the wedding asked the groom why he saved the "best" for last....

Already addressed in detail here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...n-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-9#post-4200168

Jesus saved the "καλον" (good, as in morally excellent, as God is) last, which represented Himself, and His life. So, to use your word, Jesus is the 'best', and from Him, the True Vine, it comes pure, and without corruption.

again, King Jimmy... just for you...

Do you pretend that King James I of England (VI of Scotland) personally translated the Bible, in 1611?

"0 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. "

Nothing wrong with the words. It is how you add definition to those words that does not exist contextually, neither in the koine Greek definition.

G2570
καλός
kalos
Thayer Definition:

1) beautiful, handsome, excellent, eminent, choice, surpassing, precious, useful, suitable, commendable, admirable​

1a) beautiful to look at, shapely, magnificent​

1b) good, excellent in its nature and characteristics, and therefore well adapted to its ends​

1b1) genuine, approved​

1b2) precious​

1b3) joined to names of men designated by their office, competent, able, such as one ought to be​

1b4) praiseworthy, noble​

1c) beautiful by reason of purity of heart and life, and hence praiseworthy​

1c1) morally good, noble​

1d) honourable, conferring honour​

1e) affecting the mind agreeably, comforting and confirming​

Part of Speech: adjective​

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity​

​

G1640
ἐλάσσων / ἐλάττων
elassōn / elattōn
Thayer Definition:

​

1) less​

1a) in age (younger)​

1b) in rank​

1c) in excellence, worse​

Part of Speech: verb​

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: comparative of the same as G1646​

​

Unless you are trying to convince us that the "good wine" was cheaper than the not so good wine?

I said no such thing. Your strawman of what I have said, needs no further response, since such was already erroneous to begin with.

There it is ..... in context.

All you did was quote the Bible, and then added your definition, "cheaper". Notice:

Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.​

​

Joh 2:10 AndG2532 saithG3004 unto him,G846 EveryG3956 manG444 at the beginningG4412 doth set forthG5087 goodG2570 wine;G3631 andG2532 whenG3752 men have well drunk,G3184 thenG5119 that which is worse:G1640 but thouG4771 hast keptG5083 theG3588 goodG2570 wineG3631 untilG2193 now.G737​

​

Joh 2:10 και λεγει αυτω πας ανθρωπος πρωτον τον καλον οινον τιθησιν και οταν μεθυσθωσιν τοτε τον ελασσω συ τετηρηκας τον καλον οινον εως αρτι​

​

Joh 2:10 καιG2532 CONJ λεγειG3004 V-PAI-3S αυτωG846 P-DSM παςG3956 A-NSM ανθρωποςG444 N-NSM πρωτονG4412 ADV-S τονG3588 T-ASM καλονG2570 A-ASM οινονG3631 N-ASM τιθησινG5087 V-PAI-3S καιG2532 CONJ οτανG3752 CONJ μεθυσθωσινG3184 V-APS-3P τοτεG5119 ADV τονG3588 T-ASM ελασσωG1640 A-ASM-C συG4771 P-2NS τετηρηκαςG5083 V-RAI-2S τονG3588 T-ASM καλονG2570 A-ASM οινονG3631 N-ASM εωςG2193 ADV αρτιG737 ADV​

Notice, nothing about "cheap" or "expensive". "Kalos" means 'morally excellent', 'worthy', 'honourable', and "ellason" means 'less than the best', lesser quality (of character) or leser in age. There is nothing inherent in these words that speak about 'price'.

Strong's:

G2570
καλός
kalos
Total KJB Occurrences: 97

good, 81​

Mat_3:10, Mat_7:16-19 (4), Mat_12:33 (2), Mat_13:8, Mat_13:23-24 (2), Mat_13:27, Mat_13:37-38 (2), Mat_13:48, Mat_17:4, Mar_4:8, Mar_4:20, Mar_9:5, Mar_9:50, Mar_14:6, Mar_14:21, Luk_3:9, Luk_6:38, Luk_6:43 (2), Luk_8:15, Luk_14:33-34 (2), Joh_10:10-11 (4), Joh_10:14, Joh_10:32-33 (2), Rom_7:16, Rom_7:18, Rom_14:21 (2), 1Co_5:6, 1Co_7:1, 1Co_7:8, 1Co_7:26 (2), Gal_4:18 (2), 1Th_5:21, 1Ti_1:8, 1Ti_1:18, 1Ti_2:3, 1Ti_3:1, 1Ti_3:7, 1Ti_3:13, 1Ti_4:4, 1Ti_4:6 (2), 1Ti_5:4, 1Ti_5:10, 1Ti_5:25, 1Ti_6:12-13 (3), 1Ti_6:18-19 (2), 2Ti_1:14, 2Ti_2:3, 2Ti_4:7, Tit_2:7, Tit_2:14, Tit_3:8 (2), Heb_5:14 (2), Heb_6:5, Heb_10:24, Heb_13:9, Heb_13:18, Jas_3:13, Jas_4:17, 1Pe_2:12, 1Pe_4:10​

​

better, 7​

Mat_18:8-9 (2), Mar_9:42-43 (2), Mar_9:45, Mar_9:47, 1Co_9:15​

​

honest, 5​

Luk_8:15 (2), Rom_12:17, 2Co_8:21, 2Co_13:7, 1Pe_2:12​

​

meet, 2​

Mar_7:26-27 (2)​

​

well, 1​

Gal_6:9​

​

worthy, 1​

Jas_2:7​

​

G1640
ἐλάσσων / ἐλάττων
elassōn / elattōn
Total KJB Occurrences: 4

​

less, 1​

Heb_7:7​

​

under, 1​

1Ti_5:9​

​

worse, 1​

Joh_2:9-10 (2)​

​

younger, 1​

Rom_9:12​

 

[azamzimtoti]

 

[WithinReason]

View attachment 214150

Pssst. Your theological position is showing ... (you might want to tuck that in) ...

 

[Sipsey]

Pssst. Your theological position is showing ... (you might want to tuck that in) ...

In your opinion, is letting alcohol touch ones lips a worse sin than gossip, or stirring up conflict?

 

[notuptome]

In this matter of making wine. Is not the fermentation process a process of rotting? Rotting being a process of corruption? We know that making bread with yeast makes for a tastier bread yet the Jews made some bread without leaven which was yeast. Is it possible to make wine without fermentation? Fermentation back in centuries ago was a means of preservation of the wine.

Drinking alcohol is a sin to him who thinks it is a sin. We ought to defer to the weaker brother and not drink wine in his presence according to scripture. Each must act according to the dictates of his heart before the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[posthuman]

*ahem*

again, from page 1.

Jesus saved the "καλον" (good, as in morally excellent, as God is) last

 

[posthuman]

1b) good, excellent in its nature and characteristics, and therefore well adapted to its ends

in the context of John 2, specifically, the 'good' wine is what makes people intoxicated.
this is the 'normal' practice for a days-long wedding feast. serve the wine 'well adapted to its ends' first, before the guests palates are dulled.

in the context the 'ends' of 'good' wine is mild intoxication.

It is how you add definition to those words that does not exist contextually

​

the context is giving high quality wine to people who are 'well drunk'

you are suggesting this means 'morally excellent' wine is the kind that gets people mildly intoxicated.



thank you for reversing course on your false teachings, and confessing that the wine Christ made at Cana was of the 'good' intoxicating sort. it is refreshing to see someone finally stop eisegeting and come to a knowledge of the truth

 

[WithinReason]

In your opinion

It is either according to scripture or it ain't. My 'opinion' doesn't have anything to do with the matter. Isaiah 8:20.

, is letting alcohol touch ones lips

You keep moving goalposts. The matter is not about letting 'alcohol touch ones lips', nor 'tasting', nor pouring it on wounds, etc. The matter is about drinking alcohol.

a worse sin

There are various kinds of sins in scripture, such as Ignorant and Presumptuous, Natural and Unnatural, kind that can be forgiven and the kind that cannot be forgiven, sins of youth and sins of old age, and also sins, transgressions and iniquities, etc.

Sin is specifically identified and defined in 1 John 3:4, which reads:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.​

Notice the previous context, in verse 3, and the words "purifieth himself". Alcohol does not purify the mind/heart, and neither does it built up the body temple, but assaults it in nearly every front.

than gossip

Are you asking is taking a 'sip' is worse than 'gossip'? What does scripture say?

All sins separate between us and God:

Isa_59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.​

Sin will also divide man and man.

, or stirring up conflict?

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.​

Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.​

Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.​

Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.​

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.​

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.​

​

Such as it is even now.

Yet:

Psa_120:7 I am for peace: but when I speak, they are for war.​

​

I speak the truth (John 17:17), and they must defend their sin, rather than the truth.

It's real simple. And if any man desires to know of the doctrine of Christ, that one shall know the truth. You can know the tree by its fruit.

Alcohol consumption. Study the tree in the matter of health (lays waste), the economic (drains and nothing gained, but only loss, physical, mental, spiritual, then consider the illegalaties associated with it), the societial (woes), the familial (destructions, divisions, death), the personal (sorrow), the religious (associations of the pagans). The fruit is clearly seen to all but those who refuse to remove the 'beer-goggles' they have chosen to wear.

 

[WithinReason]

...

View attachment 214158​

..

"... In a 2012 interview with TheWrap, Freeman was asked if he considered himself atheist or agnostic. He replied, "It's a hard question because as I said at the start, I think we invented God. So if I believe in God, and I do, it's because I think I'm God."[53]..." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Freeman

You might want to rethink the theology of your 'god' - Morgan Freeman.

 

[posthuman]

the context is giving high quality wine to people who are 'well drunk'

Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.
(John 2:4) ​

think about it.
'wine which gladdens men's hearts' given before the appropriate time.

a people dim of understanding, not ready to receive Him -- who, at a later time, 'will see Him, the One they have pierced'
wedding guests who do not recognize The Groom, being blessed with His presence.

This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.
(John 2:11)
​

He will wipe away every tear, and our misery we will remember no more ♥

 

[posthuman]

"... In a 2012 interview with TheWrap, Freeman was asked if he considered himself atheist or agnostic. He replied, "It's a hard question because as I said at the start, I think we invented God. So if I believe in God, and I do, it's because I think I'm God."[53]..." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Freeman

You might want to rethink the theology of your 'god' - Morgan Freeman.

you're a really sad case, Jack.

i indicate i agree with a statement you make, and your response is to slanderously accuse me of idolatry & to shoot the messenger.

childish, tsk.

 

[posthuman]

you add definition to those words that does not exist contextually

is this better, little one?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Morgan Freeman

huh

intelligent man and a great actor. but he does not know the Savior

shame

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Cute kid, but I ain't him. And as for the correctness of my response, it is most accurate, even to the 't' of Calvary.

Already addressed in detail here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...n-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-9#post-4200168

Jesus saved the "καλον" (good, as in morally excellent, as God is) last, which represented Himself, and His life. So, to use your word, Jesus is the 'best', and from Him, the True Vine, it comes pure, and without corruption.

Do you pretend that King James I of England (VI of Scotland) personally translated the Bible, in 1611?

Nothing wrong with the words. It is how you add definition to those words that does not exist contextually, neither in the koine Greek definition.

G2570
καλός
kalos
Thayer Definition:

1) beautiful, handsome, excellent, eminent, choice, surpassing, precious, useful, suitable, commendable, admirable​

1a) beautiful to look at, shapely, magnificent​

1b) good, excellent in its nature and characteristics, and therefore well adapted to its ends​

1b1) genuine, approved​

1b2) precious​

1b3) joined to names of men designated by their office, competent, able, such as one ought to be​

1b4) praiseworthy, noble​

1c) beautiful by reason of purity of heart and life, and hence praiseworthy​

1c1) morally good, noble​

1d) honourable, conferring honour​

1e) affecting the mind agreeably, comforting and confirming​

Part of Speech: adjective​

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity​

​

G1640
ἐλάσσων / ἐλάττων
elassōn / elattōn
Thayer Definition:

​

1) less​

1a) in age (younger)​

1b) in rank​

1c) in excellence, worse​

Part of Speech: verb​

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: comparative of the same as G1646​

​

I said no such thing. Your strawman of what I have said, needs no further response, since such was already erroneous to begin with.

All you did was quote the Bible, and then added your definition, "cheaper". Notice:

Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.​

​

Joh 2:10 AndG2532 saithG3004 unto him,G846 EveryG3956 manG444 at the beginningG4412 doth set forthG5087 goodG2570 wine;G3631 andG2532 whenG3752 men have well drunk,G3184 thenG5119 that which is worse:G1640 but thouG4771 hast keptG5083 theG3588 goodG2570 wineG3631 untilG2193 now.G737​

​

Joh 2:10 και λεγει αυτω πας ανθρωπος πρωτον τον καλον οινον τιθησιν και οταν μεθυσθωσιν τοτε τον ελασσω συ τετηρηκας τον καλον οινον εως αρτι​

​

Joh 2:10 καιG2532 CONJ λεγειG3004 V-PAI-3S αυτωG846 P-DSM παςG3956 A-NSM ανθρωποςG444 N-NSM πρωτονG4412 ADV-S τονG3588 T-ASM καλονG2570 A-ASM οινονG3631 N-ASM τιθησινG5087 V-PAI-3S καιG2532 CONJ οτανG3752 CONJ μεθυσθωσινG3184 V-APS-3P τοτεG5119 ADV τονG3588 T-ASM ελασσωG1640 A-ASM-C συG4771 P-2NS τετηρηκαςG5083 V-RAI-2S τονG3588 T-ASM καλονG2570 A-ASM οινονG3631 N-ASM εωςG2193 ADV αρτιG737 ADV​

Notice, nothing about "cheap" or "expensive". "Kalos" means 'morally excellent', 'worthy', 'honourable', and "ellason" means 'less than the best', lesser quality (of character) or leser in age. There is nothing inherent in these words that speak about 'price'.

Strong's:

G2570
καλός
kalos
Total KJB Occurrences: 97

good, 81​

Mat_3:10, Mat_7:16-19 (4), Mat_12:33 (2), Mat_13:8, Mat_13:23-24 (2), Mat_13:27, Mat_13:37-38 (2), Mat_13:48, Mat_17:4, Mar_4:8, Mar_4:20, Mar_9:5, Mar_9:50, Mar_14:6, Mar_14:21, Luk_3:9, Luk_6:38, Luk_6:43 (2), Luk_8:15, Luk_14:33-34 (2), Joh_10:10-11 (4), Joh_10:14, Joh_10:32-33 (2), Rom_7:16, Rom_7:18, Rom_14:21 (2), 1Co_5:6, 1Co_7:1, 1Co_7:8, 1Co_7:26 (2), Gal_4:18 (2), 1Th_5:21, 1Ti_1:8, 1Ti_1:18, 1Ti_2:3, 1Ti_3:1, 1Ti_3:7, 1Ti_3:13, 1Ti_4:4, 1Ti_4:6 (2), 1Ti_5:4, 1Ti_5:10, 1Ti_5:25, 1Ti_6:12-13 (3), 1Ti_6:18-19 (2), 2Ti_1:14, 2Ti_2:3, 2Ti_4:7, Tit_2:7, Tit_2:14, Tit_3:8 (2), Heb_5:14 (2), Heb_6:5, Heb_10:24, Heb_13:9, Heb_13:18, Jas_3:13, Jas_4:17, 1Pe_2:12, 1Pe_4:10​

​

better, 7​

Mat_18:8-9 (2), Mar_9:42-43 (2), Mar_9:45, Mar_9:47, 1Co_9:15​

​

honest, 5​

Luk_8:15 (2), Rom_12:17, 2Co_8:21, 2Co_13:7, 1Pe_2:12​

​

meet, 2​

Mar_7:26-27 (2)​

​

well, 1​

Gal_6:9​

​

worthy, 1​

Jas_2:7​

​

G1640
ἐλάσσων / ἐλάττων
elassōn / elattōn
Total KJB Occurrences: 4

​

less, 1​

Heb_7:7​

​

under, 1​

1Ti_5:9​

​

worse, 1​

Joh_2:9-10 (2)​

​

younger, 1​

Rom_9:12​

does anyone actually read all of that?

I certainly don't

much better to spend that amount of time reading the actual Bible so that you know the truth and reject lies

 

[7seasrekeyed]

In your opinion, is letting alcohol touch ones lips a worse sin than gossip, or stirring up conflict?

what you mention are sins of the heart.....heart matters

I think it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, then for some Christians to give up their gossip, backbiting and gluttony

so we have those who camouflage their nature with outward religiosity

you may know them by how hard they work at outward appearances

 

[7seasrekeyed]

In this matter of making wine. Is not the fermentation process a process of rotting? Rotting being a process of corruption? We know that making bread with yeast makes for a tastier bread yet the Jews made some bread without leaven which was yeast. Is it possible to make wine without fermentation? Fermentation back in centuries ago was a means of preservation of the wine.

Drinking alcohol is a sin to him who thinks it is a sin. We ought to defer to the weaker brother and not drink wine in his presence according to scripture. Each must act according to the dictates of his heart before the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

well yes and basically, that is what scripture states

for example, while attended a Messianic congregation, I didn't eat pork in front of those who thought they need to abide by that injunction

but don't be bound by another's conscience

it is sin if you do what you think is sin as you say and scripture agrees

 

[posthuman]

well yes and basically, that is what scripture states

for example, while attended a Messianic congregation, I didn't eat pork in front of those who thought they need to abide by that injunction

but don't be bound by another's conscience

it is sin if you do what you think is sin as you say and scripture agrees

yes

Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat,
and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats;
for God has received him.
(Romans 14:3)​

 

[notuptome]

well yes and basically, that is what scripture states

for example, while attended a Messianic congregation, I didn't eat pork in front of those who thought they need to abide by that injunction

but don't be bound by another's conscience

it is sin if you do what you think is sin as you say and scripture agrees

You have no idea how difficult it is for me to be so accommodating of others. Me being perfect and all. We are admonished not to offend the weaker in the faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You have no idea how difficult it is for me to be so accommodating of others. Me being perfect and all. We are admonished not to offend the weaker in the faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

man

rough life!

 

[azamzimtoti]

Pssst

No, I only had the one beer