Not By Works

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Bbrdrd said:
Some are, actually. Why would they accuse me of preaching a "works gospel" if they're not denying that works are a part of salvation? Not the cause, but a result I agree but still necessary.
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If they are "necessary" for salvation then you preach a works gospel, if they are a necessary as a result still a works gospel.

The thief on the cross "saved" with no works he simply believed in Christ as Saviour.
 
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Phoneman-777 said:
We got it from the Bible..Paul says the Cross takes care of "sins that are past". Of course, you think it means "sins that are past the point of affecting our salvation" which is the core philosophy of OSAS: "Salvation doesn't change me, just God's opinion of the sin that remains in me."
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Where is that verse in scripture that it is only sins past?
 
Phoneman-777 said:
You asked if Paul contradicts John, and I said no, they both teach the saints can forfeit salvation. Now you want proof, so here you go:
In Romans 6:16, Paul says to the saints who choose to give sin dominion over themselves that it's "unto death".
In 1 John 2: 24, John says, "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."

Now, 11th hour came up with that kooky idea that Paul's "unto death" ain't referring to spiritual death :rolleyes: even though it's contrasted with "righteousness", a clearly spiritual concept. I'm sure you'll have something similar to show how if what we've "heard from the beginning" fails to "remain in" us, we can still "continue" in God, right?
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John said if that which you HEARD from the begining

He did not say that which you entrusted.

so sorry your wrong

I already showed you where John said a child of God can not live in sin.

Let me show you something else he said

remember John said he who is born og God can not sin. because he has been born of God

Well he says later that they have also overcome the world. Not because they works, or stopped sinning, but because they entrusted their lives to Jesus

1 John 5: 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

John also shows that whoever is born of God, through their faith, also Has eternal life.

1 John 5: 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, [e]and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Now of course, Explain why Jphn said we can KNOW WE have life eternal. if he really as you claim, teaches our life is conditional?


Nope, he said a saint "cannot sin". A backslider by definition is no longer a saint.
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Nope. he said a saint can not live in habitual sin.

A backslider is still a christian, he is just a christian who is under chastening.

Any person who is born of God, is by definition a saint (set apart) we are set apart by God, and given the power to become his sons and daughters because he gave us that right, when we believed in him (john 1)

Really? What if the loving wife you kissed goodbye before boarding a bi-plane and sitting down behind a pilot in whom you placed your implicit trust - sends you a text of her flipping you off while running a train with 3 dudes, and you decide to end it all? Does that mean you never trusted the pilot? See what I did there?
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yeah I saw what you did

You tried to compare a loving all powerful God with some pilot of some plane to try to prove to yourself that you are correct.

But it will not work on others, because we have come to Know the living God..
 
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miknik5 said:
Who gave us the works to begin with? And again, when öur works"into the light, we can see what is wrought in GOD, can´t we?
So will we boast that we......worked for our salvation?

Never...

The part where it says that these works were prepared in advance that we should walk in...
Can we boast that these were our works even...or that GOD, for the perfecting of the saints, until we all reach the unity of FAITH (which is directed in and on CHRIST JESUS alone for salvation) prepared who HE prepared, and gave gifts according to HIS PURPOSE for HIS GLORY alone...
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ok lets take a look at these works

are these works done in order to gain or maintain the salvation we have already recieved By grace through faith

or are the works that a person who has trusted God and been saved by grace through that trust are created to walk in?

I think these are two apposing views. and both of them are being introduced in this conversation.

do you agree?
 
miknik5 said:
Actually the whole of it as it explains that we are (supposed to be ) ONE BODY...and that we are all growing up into THE HEAD, who is CHRIST JESUS...

Itś just that not all of us have grown up...
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Yes

But even those who have not grown up are children of God. Saved by his grace, and born of God, who has become their abba father, not the spirit of fear that some here want to place us under.

Eph 1 and 2 shows us how we became children of God and what we received when we were converted.

eph 3, paul explains the mystery

and starting in chapter 4, he shows what we as children of God should do.

do you agree?
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Yes

But even those who have not grown up are children of God. Saved by his grace, and born of God, who has become their abba father, not the spirit of fear that some here want to place us under.

Eph 1 and 2 shows us how we became children of God and what we received when we were converted.

eph 3, paul explains the mystery

and starting in chapter 4, he shows what we as children of God should do.

do you agree?
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i understand that completely...however works,and the discussion of works, stems from a fleshly mind to begin with....
 
Bbrdrd said:
Some are, actually. Why would they accuse me of preaching a "works gospel" if they're not denying that works are a part of salvation? Not the cause, but a result I agree but still necessary.
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because you appear to be teaching that salvation can be lost. and insisting those who entrust themselves wholly through their faith in Christ are somehow wrong,


if salvation can be lost, it must be earned. This is is by works.
 
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Bbrdrd said:
You're doing more than that, and it's a subtle poison. It's how you're casting belief that changes things. If one believes Jesus they will follow Him. They will recognize that salvation is not on their terms, but on His and He commands righteousness. He commands obedience.
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Your projections upon others are annoying at best, self-condemning at worst. If only you were correct in your projections. Sigh 😔.
 
Forgive me, but my computer is not responding...I responded to Phonemanś post, as well as a more in depth response to your post, and both posts seem to be missing.

Luke 12...since GOD already knows the works HE prepared and gave us, if we are, at the last hour, becoming discouraged, and start beating our servants, and we knew our MASTERŚ GOOD WILL...guess who will receive more stripes...the baby in CHRiST, or the one who knew and yet didn´t do what he/she was supposed to do..

That response was to @Phoneman-777 who asked me to explain my response (however, I no longer see his post)...
 
miknik5 said:
i understand that completely...however works,and the discussion of works, stems from a fleshly mind to begin with....
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Thank you

Works are an issue here I believe because people are insisting they are required to gain or maintain our salvation.

Sadly, if we just had a discussion about christian growth, I know myself and most of the people here. Would love to discuss how God grows us into his grace and truth,

But this thread is concerning salvation by works, so is really not appropriate here.

I hope you can understand this
 
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miknik5 said:
The works were prepared in advance by GOD for HIS PURPOSE...all for the perfecting of the saints and the building up of THE BODY...which is...ONE BODY..
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Amen

For true believers

Those not born again, these works are not yet prapaired for them.
 
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eternally-gratefull said:
Thank you

Works are an issue here I believe because people are insisting they are required to gain or maintain our salvation.

Sadly, if we just had a discussion about christian growth, I know myself and most of the people here. Would love to discuss how God grows us into his grace and truth,

But this thread is concerning salvation by works, so is really not appropriate here.

I hope you can understand this
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Exactly ... Thank you

The discussion is paramount.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
because you appear to be teaching that salvation can be lost. and insisting those who entrust themselves wholly through their faith in Christ are somehow wrong,


if salvation can be lost, it must be earned. This is is by works.
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Then you are misinterpreting what I'm saying, I'm not saying salvation can be lost but that our perspective limits the usefulness of knowledge that all who Christ intends to save will be saved. Paul regularly encouranged believers to remain in the faith, made conditional statements about if they continue in the faith, etc. He did not judge men saved, not even himself until the end was in sight. The question I have in mind is not if they trust Christ but if they trust an event rather than Christ. And that's where works come in, because if they have no works then they may need to question where their faith actually lies. If there is resistance to the idea that we must obey God, if they react to that with hostility then it doesn't seem to me they've repented and put their faith in the gospel. I will judge a man no more saved than damned, and so exhort Godliness as well as trust.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Yes

But even those who have not grown up are children of God. Saved by his grace, and born of God, who has become their abba father, not the spirit of fear that some here want to place us under.

Eph 1 and 2 shows us how we became children of God and what we received when we were converted.

eph 3, paul explains the mystery

and starting in chapter 4, he shows what we as children of God should do.

do you agree?
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those who have not grown up, it is GODŚ WORK to purify, refine and launder them...so that they will grow up into their most HOLY FAIth...

GOD is a launderer...and HE purifies us so that our faith (more precious than gold) will rest entirely in and on HIM...and will result in HIS GLORY...

It is when we are purified that we come back to what we began in is what we will end in...FAITH

From first ----------> to last
From Faith --------> to faith
 
EleventhHour said:
If they are "necessary" for salvation then you preach a works gospel, if they are a necessary as a result still a works gospel.

The thief on the cross "saved" with no works he simply believed in Christ as Saviour.
Click to expand...

You create a false division between belief and works. What we believe, we will live. If we don't live it, we don't really believe it.
 
Hi!
Phoneman-777 said:
We got it from the Bible..Paul says the Cross takes care of "sins that are past".
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You keep mentioning the Apostle Paul:

Gal 5:17 For the flesh has desires that are opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit has desires that are opposed to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you cannot do what you want.
---
Rom 7:15 For I don’t understand what I am doing. For I do not do what I want – instead, I do what I hate.

Even he (Paul) wrestled with "the flesh"
As all those who are His hate when we "miss the mark", you break one you broke them all.....
That why we have 1 john 1:9...cleanse the "garment stained by the flesh"...
 
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