Catholicism vs Protestantism
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The claim is a historical one, but it doesn't trace back to the original church. It can be shown to be a late arrising doctrine so it can be demonstrated false both historically and Biblically. Just because the Catholic churches claims on history are false doesn't mean we should retreat into not checking our own assumptions against the backdrop of historic thought.
That's an interesting observation, and it seems to me the proper attitude is somewhere in between those two extremes. The church can err, and we as individuals can err. The Holy Spirit guides us both personally and collectively.
Though given my experience, it seems to me that there's a hidden tradition among protestants that can't be strayed from or else you'll be declared a heretic. An example of this is if you dispute the doctrine of original sin and the idea of vicarious guilt/righteousness put forward in the reformations peculiar position on grace you're deemed to be going against Scripture no matter how Scriptural your arguments. I can't tell you how many times I've been told I wasn't a Christian because I don't accept penal substitution as presented by protestants.
Though I keep using the word "protestant" as if I don't belong to the group in a sense as I also reject the absolute authority of any church to dictate doctrine(especially one that is so liberal with its recasting of history as the Catholic church)
Though given my experience, it seems to me that there's a hidden tradition among protestants that can't be strayed from or else you'll be declared a heretic. An example of this is if you dispute the doctrine of original sin and the idea of vicarious guilt/righteousness put forward in the reformations peculiar position on grace you're deemed to be going against Scripture no matter how Scriptural your arguments. I can't tell you how many times I've been told I wasn't a Christian because I don't accept penal substitution as presented by protestants.
Though I keep using the word "protestant" as if I don't belong to the group in a sense as I also reject the absolute authority of any church to dictate doctrine(especially one that is so liberal with its recasting of history as the Catholic church)
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Mostly a casting of Christus Victor. If it were as simple as Christ died as a legal substitute, I would accept penal substitution alongside Christus Victor because that is Biblical. the aspect I reject is the idea that it was a satisfaction for God's wrath. The picture that conjures for me is a pagan deity demanding virgin blood even when it is smoothed out to claim Christ's role as our king was in mind.
I know not all,history are lie, but I don't belirv history about Peter being in rome an die as a martyr in rome
Read this article
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/peters-jerusalem-tomb.htm
Read this article
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/peters-jerusalem-tomb.htm
Somewhat, though it still seems to pit God the Father against God the Son with God the Son determined to save but God the Father unable to forgive without pouring out wrath. In my estimation it distorts the picture of God's justice which is restorative not retributive and puts a limitation on God. What it seems to me is going on as far as the legal substitution goes is that those who recognize righteousness sell themselves under the law, but the law leaves no room for mercy. So Jesus died according to an accusation of the law, demonstrating that while it is righteous it lacks a necessary quality for God's righteousness. Sin was judged by God via the law through both the cross and the prior working of God in the nation of Israel. In Christ we were ransomed from the law which would have no mercy on us. It served as a schoolmaster teaching us what sin was, but in itself was not a fit judge because it had the capacity of convicting an innocent man. That is of course just how I conceive of the penal aspects of the atonement from what I can piece together of previous covenants and is in no way something I am teaching as fact.
Eh, I got no skin in that game really. Whether Peter truly was martyred in Jerusalem or Rome makes no difference, though I fail to see why the churches in Jerusalem, Antioch, the cities of Anatolia, and Alexandria would all claim that Peter was in Rome in the early days especially since Paul's foundation and leadership of the church was enough to establish an apostolic tradition. My axe is more directed at the ahistorical definition of grace proposed by the reformers thats taken root in protestant churches that pits James against Paul.
To me, I base my believe in the Bible. Bible never mention Peter in Rome, when Paul there Jews never heard abou Christianity, catholic claim Peter there since AD 32 seem impossible after Peter preach for 28 years a group (not one) of Jews never hear about Christianity
Very important conference act 15 some say about AD 40 in Jerusalem, not in Rome indicate the center of Christianity was Jerusalem.
Never in the book of act say Peter in Jerusalem. Catholic say he is the boss, the boss must get more publication. Say Trump and his minister travel to Los angles today,
News paper will mention Trump not minister travel to LA without mention Trump
Or Trump not with him. If both there, news my mention only Trump, but not only mention minister
If the boss (Peter there) with Paul the boss will be mention. And a lot more indicator
Very important conference act 15 some say about AD 40 in Jerusalem, not in Rome indicate the center of Christianity was Jerusalem.
Never in the book of act say Peter in Jerusalem. Catholic say he is the boss, the boss must get more publication. Say Trump and his minister travel to Los angles today,
News paper will mention Trump not minister travel to LA without mention Trump
Or Trump not with him. If both there, news my mention only Trump, but not only mention minister
If the boss (Peter there) with Paul the boss will be mention. And a lot more indicator
VATICAN CITY (CNS) — Here is a CNS translation of the prayer Pope Francis recited by video March 11 for a special Mass and act of prayer asking Mary to protect Italy and the world during the coronavirus pandemic.
O Mary,
you always shine on our path
as a sign of salvation and of hope.
We entrust ourselves to you, Health of the Sick,
who at the cross took part in Jesus’ pain, keeping your faith firm.
You, Salvation of the Roman People,
know what we need,
and we are sure you will provide
so that, as in Cana of Galilee,
we may return to joy and to feasting
after this time of trial.
Help us, Mother of Divine Love,
to conform to the will of the Father
and to do as we are told by Jesus,
who has taken upon himself our sufferings
and carried our sorrows
to lead us, through the cross,
to the joy of the resurrection. Amen.
VATICAN CITY (CNS) — Here is a CNS translation of the prayer Pope Francis recited by video March 11 for a special Mass and act of prayer asking Mary to protect Italy and the world during the coronavirus pandemic.
O Mary,
you always shine on our path
as a sign of salvation and of hope.
We entrust ourselves to you, Health of the Sick,
who at the cross took part in Jesus’ pain, keeping your faith firm.
You, Salvation of the Roman People,
know what we need,
and we are sure you will provide
so that, as in Cana of Galilee,
we may return to joy and to feasting
after this time of trial.
Help us, Mother of Divine Love,
to conform to the will of the Father
and to do as we are told by Jesus,
who has taken upon himself our sufferings
and carried our sorrows
to lead us, through the cross,
to the joy of the resurrection. Amen.
Catholic entrust the self to Mary and tell Mary :
Quote
You, salvation of the Roman people
End quote
My question is who is jesus?
O Mary,
you always shine on our path
as a sign of salvation and of hope.
We entrust ourselves to you, Health of the Sick,
who at the cross took part in Jesus’ pain, keeping your faith firm.
You, Salvation of the Roman People,
know what we need,
and we are sure you will provide
so that, as in Cana of Galilee,
we may return to joy and to feasting
after this time of trial.
Help us, Mother of Divine Love,
to conform to the will of the Father
and to do as we are told by Jesus,
who has taken upon himself our sufferings
and carried our sorrows
to lead us, through the cross,
to the joy of the resurrection. Amen.
VATICAN CITY (CNS) — Here is a CNS translation of the prayer Pope Francis recited by video March 11 for a special Mass and act of prayer asking Mary to protect Italy and the world during the coronavirus pandemic.
O Mary,
you always shine on our path
as a sign of salvation and of hope.
We entrust ourselves to you, Health of the Sick,
who at the cross took part in Jesus’ pain, keeping your faith firm.
You, Salvation of the Roman People,
know what we need,
and we are sure you will provide
so that, as in Cana of Galilee,
we may return to joy and to feasting
after this time of trial.
Help us, Mother of Divine Love,
to conform to the will of the Father
and to do as we are told by Jesus,
who has taken upon himself our sufferings
and carried our sorrows
to lead us, through the cross,
to the joy of the resurrection. Amen.
Catholic entrust the self to Mary and tell Mary :
Quote
You, salvation of the Roman people
End quote
My question is who is jesus?
It makes no difference as to where Peter is or was. Even jesus when men tried to put in in the place of our Good master or father in heaven ,he refused to stand in that holy place un sen the place of faith . he said one id Good master and world not be identified as a Daysman or what we call a Pope.
Dead asleep Peter is not the center of the universe as Catholic make him and some queen they named Mary. And the bible named the strange woman . . the Masters of the universe.
That's a Catholic foundation built on "necromancy" copied from the Hebrew law of fathers. Its built on the abomination of desolation.The kind that when King Josiah discovered them he was moved by sola scriptura (the book of the law ) to make them disappear . This revealed Josiah was walking by faith the unseen spiritual manner.
The Vatican's patron workers with familial spirit. What Catholicism calls saints (3500 and rising the Legion) It is full of idol images to give men the illusion they are communing with others who have left this realm under the Sun . I would venture to say the biggest delusion that God sends a strong delusion exposing the lying wonders daily .
No necromancy . . the Catholic foundation of another manner of spirit (legion) other than the Spirit of Christ, the Holy spirit of God .
It would seem even with the ever growing 3500 not one patron saint is named after Josiah. The saint of (sola scriptural)
We must be careful how we hear the one This manner our father in heaven. . . who can hear and work in us giving us his desire .
2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.
Yes, to replace Judas they prayed, fasted, and rolled some dice. And of course they also carefully researched the situation first.
Acts 1: 21 "Of the men therefore who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John, to the day that he was received up from us, of these one must become a witness with us of his resurrection." 23 They put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
For Paul and Barnabas (both were apostles of course),
Acts 13: 1 Now in the assembly that was at Antioch there were some prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen the foster brother of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they served the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Separate Barnabas and Saul for me, for the work to which I have called them." 3 Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
I agree with the possibility of needing apostles today, if that's what you were saying.
Did the holy Spirit stop telling the church to set apart certain people as apostles? Does the Bible talk about this? I can't find a place that it does.
Acts 1: 21 "Of the men therefore who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John, to the day that he was received up from us, of these one must become a witness with us of his resurrection." 23 They put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
For Paul and Barnabas (both were apostles of course),
Acts 13: 1 Now in the assembly that was at Antioch there were some prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen the foster brother of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they served the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Separate Barnabas and Saul for me, for the work to which I have called them." 3 Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
I agree with the possibility of needing apostles today, if that's what you were saying.
Did the holy Spirit stop telling the church to set apart certain people as apostles? Does the Bible talk about this? I can't find a place that it does.
I think you're confusing two separate issues.
From The New York times article,
"It specified that “the Catholic Church neither conducts nor supports any specific institutional mission work directed towards Jews.” "
I'm pretty sure Catholics try to evangelize and convert everyone. The article is just saying that the church is not going to have a specific mission towards Jews.
I found this article which I think really clearly explains the Catholic position on the necessity of Jesus for salvation.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/o...ally-no-salvation-outside-the-catholic-church
"The Catholic Church teaches infallibly, “extra ecclesiam nulla salus,” or, “outside the Church there is no salvation.”
The article has lots of interesting parts and deals with the part of lumen gentium that you quoted, also. I think it would be great if we were to look at it together!
From The New York times article,
"It specified that “the Catholic Church neither conducts nor supports any specific institutional mission work directed towards Jews.” "
I'm pretty sure Catholics try to evangelize and convert everyone. The article is just saying that the church is not going to have a specific mission towards Jews.
I found this article which I think really clearly explains the Catholic position on the necessity of Jesus for salvation.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/o...ally-no-salvation-outside-the-catholic-church
"The Catholic Church teaches infallibly, “extra ecclesiam nulla salus,” or, “outside the Church there is no salvation.”
The article has lots of interesting parts and deals with the part of lumen gentium that you quoted, also. I think it would be great if we were to look at it together!
While you may see it as basing your belief on the Bible, it's extending things(your logical analysis) onto the text that aren't there. The Bible doesn't say Peter was there, but neither does it deny it so the tradition is possibly true. Rome certainly wasn't the center of Christianity until a few hundred years after the fact and is not the center now, but that's a separate issue from whether Peter was or wasn't there. The major error the Catholics make is claiming that a man was given all of the authority to dictate authoritative church doctrine and that claim is unsupportable both Biblically and historically. Peter, great apostle that he was, is demonstrably in error in Acts proving that there is no infallible source of doctrine besides the Holy Spirit. That said, it seems to me whether Peter was in Rome really only matters to someone trying to establish the papacy on that basis, which as I've said we can look through church history and see that the argument came from Leo 1 and was extended by Gregory VI and VII. The papacy is absolutely a false doctrine on multiple accounts.