Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

I have no idea what you're talking about. I know OSAS is a false Gospel that blinds people to the truth that our freewill choice ever remains ours to exercise.

OSAS appeals so greatly to irresponsible, carnally minded people b/c it allows them to cling to Jesus and their sinful habits/attitudes simultaneously. The reasonable, responsible, mature man who loves God says my freewill choice is never revoked and I must make the choice to remain surrendered to God if I am to claim the promises of God.

CHOICE IS NOT WORKS...IT'S THOUGHT.

As well,
Paul very clearly states we cannot earn salvation because it puts God in our debt.
It is the one who does not work for salvation that has salvation.


Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation.
However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.…
Romans 4:4

Thinking you are saved does not save you
It is faith in Christ Jesus as Saviour in His completed work, the object of our faith that saves.

 

[Judges1318]

Was turning away their final answer after getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers? Your argument is INCONCLUSIVE. We have already been over this.

Uh, dan, they stopped trusting in Christ for justification and went back to the law for justification.
Your interpretation of 1 John 2:19 says they were never really saved to begin with.
Paul says they were.

 

[Phoneman-777]

So you are earning your salvation?

Choosing to resist temptation earns nothing...it's "reasonable service" given to God by His "unprofitable servants."

You accuse us of making Grace a license to sin. Always the same ole tired accusation and another irony is that you do not even know what you are actually claiming.

That's exactly what OSAS means by name! "Once I'm saved, I'm free from the consequences of any sinful choices I make thereafter."

Those that make this false accusation "grace" of God which has been turned into licentiousness are actually promoting their own worthiness.

Our God given responsibility to choose the grace held out to us to stop doing the things that made necessary the death of Jesus has nothing to do with any degree of worthiness...it's reasonable service. Since when is striving to do what the rest of the entire 14+ Billion light years spanned God-surrendered universe is doing defined as trying to establish self worth?

Paul states that those who argue grace is a license to sin, argue from a heart of disbelief.

Yes, Paul said that because he knew people were preaching OSAS 600 years before his day (Ezekiel 13:22 KJV) and that they would continue preaching it in 2020. OSAS makes grace a disgrace. No sane person would suggest burning out and slinging rocks in the face of a cop that let's you off of a speeding ticket, but the insanity of OSAS does worse than that. It lets you get away with doing ANYTHING.

 

[EleventhHour]

Another Pharisee.....plain as day!!

I am not so sure why you would come to this conclusion?

Oh wait .. let me see....

@Phoneman-777

OSAS appeals so greatly to irresponsible, carnally minded people b/c it allows them to cling to Jesus and their sinful habits/attitudes

Sounds like someone who is focused on their own righteousness and ability, because that is workers do ...." look at me Jesus, what you did was not enough I am adding to it everyday" ........yup modern day Pharisee

 

[SoulWeaver]

The problem is that those who advocate "let go and let God" don't mean "let go of sin and let God transform you into the image of Jesus"....they mean "let go of your responsibility to resist unto blood striving against sin and let God change His opinion of the sin that remains in you rather than change you from a sinner to a saint".

We do not change ourselves to saint by striving and resisting - God performs it by His Spirit.
Our effort, may be only to discipline our minds to focus on God, take thoughts captive, study the Scriptures.
This is the battlefield where we arm up and fight. Even in this, God is leading the process.
Everything else that changed in my life, I am pretty sure I am not to be credited with.
I tried to quit cigarettes many times when I just became Christian, and was extremely disturbed and felt guilty for going back to it. This went on for a while. My desire to get rid of this sin and striving had no result. I was getting very afraid and stressed. And God let it go on and on.
The moment He decided it was time to get rid of it, I was commanded to crumple the box I had started, throw it into trash and never buy another. I've never lit one since, it's been 10 years.
He let it go on so I would learn to trust His process and have peace, even if I don't see it happen immediately He finishes what He started, and I knew God had a sovereign reign over my life.
Zechariah 4:6 ...Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I already thoroughly covered the parable of the unmerciful servant in multiple posts from pages 6550 - 6553. If you still refuse to see the big picture because of your biased agenda, then I can't help you any further. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-6550

In this parable, being made "alive again" foreshadows the "born again" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. People in the NOSAS camp typically interpret this parable as the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation).

Yet I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS). Luke chapter 15 opens up with rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes, not believers who lost their salvation. Think about that.

Brother Dan, there's no amount of hair splitting that can change the plain words of the parable and the obvious symbolism of it: that the forgiven man was found once again condemned for that which he was previously forgiven and that it refers to sin, salvation, and the rejection thereof by freewill choice.

Christians are supposed to be "more than conquerors"...so why does OSAS INVARIABLY line up in opposition to those of us who rally the army of God with shouts of "victory over sin by God's grace!" and instead focus on the supposed impossibility of it? It is because they do not know yet that "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me."

 

[Phoneman-777]

You're hitting home runs, dude.
Good work.

This is building the household of God at it's finest.



There are certainly those who never believed to begin with.
But there are also those who did believe but who then stopped believing.
Case in point, the Galatians.
Even if you wanted to argue that they would not have stayed in their rejection of justification through Christ, if what you say above is true they would have never stopped believing in Christ in the first place.

Ever notice how rude to their opposition are those OSAS who claim to hold a corner on the market of understanding God's love, mercy, and grace? LOL

 

[EleventhHour]

Choosing to resist temptation earns nothing...it's "reasonable service" given to God by His "unprofitable servants."
That's exactly what OSAS means by name! "Once I'm saved, I'm free from the consequences of any sinful choices I make thereafter."
Our God given responsibility to choose the grace held out to us to stop doing the things that made necessary the death of Jesus has nothing to do with any degree of worthiness...it's reasonable service. Since when is striving to do what the rest of the entire 14+ Billion light years spanned God-surrendered universe is doing defined as trying to establish self worth?
Yes, Paul said that because he knew people were preaching OSAS 600 years before his day (Ezekiel 13:22 KJV) and that they would continue preaching it in 2020. OSAS makes grace a disgrace. No sane person would suggest burning out and slinging rocks in the face of a cop that let's you off of a speeding ticket, but the insanity of OSAS does worse than that. It lets you get away with doing ANYTHING.

Just stick to the scripture and answer these questions

Did Jesus atone for all sin past, present and future in the life of the believer?

Yes of No?

Because you preach salvation is not secure, you are then working to keep it?

Yes of No?

 

[EleventhHour]

Ever notice how rude to their opposition are those OSAS who claim to hold a corner on the market of understanding God's love, mercy, and grace? LOL

Yeah we do not like Jesus Christ and His work, His promises, His faithfulness being devalued .. I can think of nothing more horrendous really!

You devalue grace because you do not think His work is sufficient to save to the uttermost.

NOSAS distort grace and accuse us of preaching "evil that good my come" ... Paul states that people who make this accusation...their condemnation is just.

Let that sink in next time you make that accusation!!

 

[mailmandan]

But of course, your believing is not self preservation, right?
Just mine is?

If it was not for the Father drawing us (John 6:44) and enabling us (John 6:65) we would never have come to believe all by ourselves, so what makes you think it's all up to you now? Is Jesus our Shepherd or just our cheerleader?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Thinking you are saved does not save you

Agreed..we must KNOW we are saved. And does the Bible tell us how we can know?
"Hereby we do know that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him and keepeth not His commandmetns is a liar and the TRUTH (Jesus) is not in him." 1 John 2:3-4 KJV

 

[mailmandan]

Uh, dan, they stopped trusting in Christ for justification and went back to the law for justification.
Your interpretation of 1 John 2:19 says they were never really saved to begin with.
Paul says they were.

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Those who "permanently" fall away fit 1 John 2:19. Paul did not say these Galatians lost their salvation and it's all over for them. When Jesus was arrested, the 11 remaining disciples were said to "fall away" in Matthew 26:31-35. Did they lose their salvation?

 

[EleventhHour]

Ever notice how rude to their opposition are those OSAS who claim to hold a corner on the market of understanding God's love, mercy, and grace? LOL

Do you ever notice how we continually defend Jesus and His WORK ... and the NOSAS continually defends their own works.

Oh I know you like to change it up so it in not works, it's choice, its perpetual belief........

All of this adds up to an ongoing requirement....working for salvation.

 

[SoulWeaver]

But there are also those who did believe but who then stopped believing.

No, the Bible doesn't teach this.
What I just posted was Jesus referring to all professing believers who weren't followed by fruit.
Jesus plainly says He never knew them.

Case in point, the Galatians.

The Galatians are actually scolded for preaching that you can lose salvation, bondage, all the things we are arguing against on this thread...

Even if you wanted to argue that they would not have stayed in their rejection of justification through Christ, if what you say above is true they would have never stopped believing in Christ in the first place.

First, not ALL individuals among the Galatians were of equal opinion and spiritual status.
It was a mixed group with some unrest and confusion going on "but there be some that trouble you".
Those who had received grace ultimately heard the Spirit and rejected this teaching (otherwise the Word of God would be void and sent in vain, and just because you believe it doesn't mean you'll never face doubt or temptation), and those who struggled to receive grace kept on in error because they could never receive it to begin with, and part of these might have repented later and finally received grace and salvation for the first time.
Paul never claimed "this whole group isn't saved" he didn't pronounce such, in fact He warned us not to pronounce such because it brings Christ down (Rom 10 if I'm not mistaken). So I'd rather take Jesus' words and judgment about these things.
You are stretching the Bible a lot to find what isn't there.
There is no believe-stop-believe.

 

[Phoneman-777]

We do not change ourselves to saint by striving and resisting - God performs it by His Spirit.

Why are you bringing up Christian Origination when the discussion is about Christian Obligation? Everyone already knows about Ephesians 2:6-9 - the problem is that OSAS/Antinomianists keep skipping over verse 10.

Our effort, may be only to discipline our minds to focus on God, take thoughts captive, study the Scriptures. This is the battlefield where we arm up and fight. Even in this, God is leading the process. Everything else that changed in my life, I am pretty sure I am not to be credited with. I tried to quit cigarettes many times when I just became Christian, and was extremely disturbed and felt guilty for going back to it. This went on for a while. My desire to get rid of this sin and striving had no result. I was getting very afraid and stressed. And God let it go on and on. The moment He decided it was time to get rid of it, I was commanded to crumple the box I had started, throw it into trash and never buy another. I've never lit one since, it's been 10 years. He let it go on so I would learn to trust His process and have peace, even if I don't see it happen immediately He finishes what He started, and I knew God had a sovereign reign over my life.
Zechariah 4:6 ...Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.

I especially like the part about "I was commanded to crumple the box...." and you obeyed His voice. That's what God is looking for - obedience, which is the highest form of worship - "Behold to obey is BETTER than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." However, I don't think God was showing you a "process", I think He was demonstrating His "longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish". Alas, I have no doubt that if you as a grace saved, blood washed smoking saint would have told God "I'll put EVERYTHING on the altar but these smokes, Lord", you would have wound up in the Resurrection of the Damned, because God's mercy and longsuffering "shall in no wise clear the guilty". Remember, only "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved", friend.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Why are you bringing up Christian Origination when the discussion is about Christian Obligation? Everyone already knows about Ephesians 2:6-9 - the problem is that OSAS/Antinomianists keep skipping over verse 10.
I especially like the part about "I was commanded to crumple the box...." and you obeyed His voice. That's what God is looking for - obedience, which is the highest form of worship - "Behold to obey is BETTER than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." However, I don't think God was showing you a "process", I think He was demonstrating His "longsuffering to usward, not will that any should perish". However, I have no doubt that if you as a grace saved, blood washed smoking saint would have told God "I'll put EVERYTHING on the altar but these smokes, Lord", you would have wound up in the Resurrection of the Damned, because God's mercy and longsuffering "shall in no wise clear the guilty". Remember, only "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved", friend.

The whole point of the story of cigarettes was it was not my power. I am sure that God didn't like me smoking before that, too. Right? But it somehow wasn't happening on my terms even though I wanted it to go away so badly! How does that make sense? Striving to get rid of sin produces nothing but aggravation. The only work of a saint is to trust. Work of faith, that's the only work God likes. Obedience is trust. But striving/effort does not produce obedience, nor is it obedience itself... and this is the confusion, people thinking striving is obedience. It isn't. Trust is obedience.

 

[EleventhHour]

Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

Amen, the Galatians were believers who had fallen into error this can happen it does not mean God abandons them, they received correction.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Just stick to the scripture and answer these questions.

I say this without any indignation, but for your benefit, sister. You should not order anyone around, for it conveys a prideful, unChristlike demeanor. Christ's method is not to compel, but to invite.

Did Jesus atone for all sin past, present and future in the life of the believer? Yes of No?

Yes, for "he that shall endure to the end", not for those who cease to endure while presuming on God's mercy.

Because you preach salvation is not secure, you are then working to keep it? Yes of No?

I don't preach insecure salvation - I preach Conditional Salvation - it's on condition that we remain surrendered to God. I don't buy into that nonsense that the lost were never saved. Too many examples of that not being the case, such as the Sanitized Saint that escaped the pollution of sin, but returned to the vomit and the mire. Paul accusing the Galatians of reverting back to faithlessness, those were once made partakers of the Holy Spirit, yet revert back to crucifying the Son of God afresh. Peter failing miserably the night of Jesus' capture and having to repent and become converted once again, etc.

 

[miknik5]

I say this without any indignation, but for your benefit, sister. You should not order anyone around, for it conveys a prideful, unChristlike demeanor. Christ's method is not to compel, but to invite.
Yes, for "he that shall endure to the end", not for those who cease to endure while presuming on God's mercy.
I don't preach insecure salvation - I preach Conditional Salvation - it's on condition that we remain surrendered to God. I don't buy into that nonsense that the lost were never saved. Too many examples of that not being the case, such as the Sanitized Saint that escaped the pollution of sin, but returned to the vomit and the mire. Paul accusing the Galatians of reverting back to faithlessness, those were once made partakers of the Holy Spirit, yet revert back to crucifying the Son of God afresh. Peter failing miserably the night of Jesus' capture and having to repent and become converted once again, etc.

We don't do that...we don't crucify the Son anew...if we believe the Gospel, then we won't shipwreck our faith, which should be directed on HIM, and HIM alone...

 

[EleventhHour]

I say this without any indignation, but for your benefit, sister. You should not order anyone around, for it conveys a prideful, unChristlike demeanor. Christ's method is not to compel, but to invite.
Yes, for "he that shall endure to the end", not for those who cease to endure while presuming on God's mercy.
I don't preach insecure salvation - I preach Conditional Salvation - it's on condition that we remain surrendered to God. I don't buy into that nonsense that the lost were never saved. Too many examples of that not being the case, such as the Sanitized Saint that escaped the pollution of sin, but returned to the vomit and the mire. Paul accusing the Galatians of reverting back to faithlessness, those were once made partakers of the Holy Spirit, yet revert back to crucifying the Son of God afresh. Peter failing miserably the night of Jesus' capture and having to repent and become converted once again, etc.

I was not ordering it was a polite request... next I will put a smiley face if that helps

What is "surrendered to God" mean.
in practical terms?