Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?

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Jan 17, 2020
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Calvin’s fatalism false doctrine.
Calvin believed as you do on the atonement. That is was for everyone and no one in particular. Scripture proved him wrong on this point. A simple passage often overlooked is John 10.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)


“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

= Jesus did not die for these who could not believe, because Jesus didn't die for them.

compare to; “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Matthew 26:27–28 (KJV 1900)
 
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Really?

How do you read Ephesians 2:11ff then, which suggests that the Gentiles were NOT included in the commonwealth of Israel, and were without hope?

It is true that a few Gentiles joined the commonwealth, but even then they were very limited..for instance, a foreigner could not own land permanently, as it always reverted back to the Israelite family it was originally given to, and never went outside of the tribe.

And, there were specific issues with regards to priests and Levites that would apply.

Try reading the Bible.

Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
(ESV Strong's)
You are missing the point. Gentiles could convert to Judaism in the OT. But the promise to Abraham that all nations (the whole world) would be blessed in him began fulfillment in the gospels and went global in Acts 10 and especially with Paul.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Calvin believed as you do on the atonement. That is was for everyone and no one in particular. Scripture proved him wrong on this point. A simple passage often overlooked is John 10.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)


“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

= Jesus did not die for these who could not believe, because Jesus didn't die for them.

compare to; “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Matthew 26:27–28 (KJV 1900)
The body of Christ is never referred to as sheep. You really need to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth.

Remission of sins is also a Jewish thing. Sins that are in remission are still there, just not in action, like cancer. Under the law, sins could be forgiven but not washed away. The sins were in remission but still needed to be dealt with.
 
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The body of Christ is never referred to as sheep. You really need to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth.

Remission of sins is also a Jewish thing. Sins that are in remission are still there, just not in action, like cancer. Under the law, sins could be forgiven but not washed away. The sins were in remission but still needed to be dealt with.
Jesus' sheep that he died for are not believers? They are not his body?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Jesus' sheep that he died for are not believers? They are not his body?
The nation of Israel...and stop with the replacement theology. The body of Christ is not the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Christ came to redeem Israel, but only after their rejection did He choose to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles.
 
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The nation of Israel...and stop with the replacement theology. The body of Christ is not the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Christ came to redeem Israel, but only after their rejection did He choose to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles.
“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:23 (KJV 1900)
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:23 (KJV 1900)
Speaking of the Jews in Acts 3, verse 25-26.
 
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Speaking of the Jews in Acts 3, verse 25-26.

“Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.” Acts 3:25–26 (KJV 1900)

These are believers.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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“Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.” Acts 3:25–26 (KJV 1900)
These are believers.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Gentiles are not the children of the prophets, nor were they given the covenant. Yes, the whole earth would be blessed through the seed of Abraham even the Gentiles, but he is specifically addressing the Jews here. It is plain to see. No Gentile in the audience.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. Obviously to the Jews. Jesus was not sent but only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, not Samaritans or Gentiles. See Matthew 10. That would only come after the Jews rejection.
 
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25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Gentiles are not the children of the prophets, nor were they given the covenant. Yes, the whole earth would be blessed through the seed of Abraham even the Gentiles, but he is specifically addressing the Jews here. It is plain to see. No Gentile in the audience.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. Obviously to the Jews. Jesus was not sent but only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, not Samaritans or Gentiles. See Matthew 10. That would only come after the Jews rejection.
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: For they shall all know me, From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: For I will forgive their iniquity, And I will remember their sin no more.” Jeremiah 31:31–34 (KJV 1900)
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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You are missing the point. Gentiles could convert to Judaism in the OT. But the promise to Abraham that all nations (the whole world) would be blessed in him began fulfillment in the gospels and went global in Acts 10 and especially with Paul.
The point is that Gentiles were not included in the commonwealth of Israel as a general rule.

They were WITHOUT HOPE.

Gentiles are included in the people of God by being united with Christ, and accounted as sons of Abraham as a result of this.

By the way, this brings up the subject of the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16.

Only the sins of the Israelites were atoned for on the Day of Atonement ceremony mentioned in Leviticus 16.

The Day of Atonement was typological of Jesus' sacrifice, so if we consider this aspect of the Day of Atonement (that it did not apply to the surrounding Gentile nations), we can see that non-believers' sins are not covered by Jesus' sacrifice in any manner.

This would support the concept of limited atonement.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: For they shall all know me, From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: For I will forgive their iniquity, And I will remember their sin no more.” Jeremiah 31:31–34 (KJV 1900)
This is the new covenant between the LORD and the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The promise of the restoration has not been transferred to the body of Christ. The covenant is obviously going to take effect at the Lord’s second coming. The phrase “after those days” refers to the days of the great tribulation, Hebrews 10:16-17.

In the millennium, there will be no need to teach your neighbor or evangelize for the Lord Jesus Christ will be here in person ruling on the earth and all will know Him.
 

Lightskin

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Aug 16, 2019
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This is your interpretation. Any believing Jew in the first century would know the promise to Abraham would include all nations in the New Covenant, and not just the Jews as it did in the Old covenant.
1 John 2:1-2 refutes Calvinism:

My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous. He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins – and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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Additionally, the concept of union with Christ affects the teaching of limited atonement.

It is only those who are joined to Christ that participate in his death and resurrection.

Unbelievers are never joined to Christ.

I doubt half of free-willers even understand the concept of union with Christ, so I am probably wasting my time explaining this, but the Christian teaching is that believers are united with Christ through faith, and thus participate in his death and resurrection. They die to sin, and they are resurrected to righteousness and newness of life.

They do this through being associated with HIS death, burial and resurrection.

An unbeliever is never associated with his death, burial and resurrection. It is only believers who are associated with it.

Like I said, though, at the shallow, Sunday school, traditionalist, religionist level of understanding, this probably won't even make sense. i suggest reading the book Union with Christ by Rankin Wilbourne in this regard. It doesn't talk about limited atonement, but the concept definitely applies.

The unbeliever never experiences this union, so they don't participate in his crucifixion, death, burial or resurrection. Therefore, atonement of the Cross doesn't apply to them.

Romans 6:1-14 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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This is the new covenant between the LORD and the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The promise of the restoration has not been transferred to the body of Christ. The covenant is obviously going to take effect at the Lord’s second coming. The phrase “after those days” refers to the days of the great tribulation, Hebrews 10:16-17.

In the millennium, there will be no need to teach your neighbor or evangelize for the Lord Jesus Christ will be here in person ruling on the earth and all will know Him.
Again, you are a dispensationalist, and your interpretation of this Scripture is dispensational.

Notice, folks, that he is claiming that the New Covenant doesn't apply to the Church.

In fact, even most dispensationalists today don't believe that.

I totally reject dispensationalism for this reason.

And the Scripture he presented prove the massive holes in their theology.

A believer is already a son of Abraham by virtue of union with Christ. At the moment he is saved, he becomes a descendant of Abraham through union with Christ. See Eph 2, Gal 3.
 
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1 John 2:1-2 refutes Calvinism:

My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous. He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins – and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
Calvin believed as you do. So it does not refute Calvinism.

But you are trying to read scripture as you would a cookbook. In scripture, you must consider all of it on a matter and not just an isolated phrase. The whole world to a Jew = all nations, not just Israel. Why? This was the promise God made to Abraham. All nations, = the whole world, = not each and every person.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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This is the new covenant between the LORD and the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The promise of the restoration has not been transferred to the body of Christ. The covenant is obviously going to take effect at the Lord’s second coming. The phrase “after those days” refers to the days of the great tribulation, Hebrews 10:16-17.

In the millennium, there will be no need to teach your neighbor or evangelize for the Lord Jesus Christ will be here in person ruling on the earth and all will know Him.
There is no millennium. It is a false doctrine of phariseeism. The kingdom is here now but only the born again can see it.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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The word of the cross is Christ crucified, the power and wisdom of God, to save those who believe in the preached message. What did you think it means?
The power of the cross is that Jesus made himself a sacrifice to God, for God's acceptance, not for man's acceptance, in atoning for the sins of those that his Father gave him, and His sacrifice was successful in the redemption of all of those that he died for in securing them a home in an everlasting heaven. Only those that have been born of the Spirit will believe in the preached message about spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14).
 

Lightskin

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Aug 16, 2019
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“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” = Jesus did not die for these who could not believe, because Jesus didn't die for them.
I like how you cunningly snuck in the words, could not believe, rather than, refused to believe. You actually make the claim they were pre-destined by God to not have the ability to believe. Sigh 😔.
 
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The point is that Gentiles were not included in the commonwealth of Israel as a general rule.

They were WITHOUT HOPE.

Gentiles are included in the people of God by being united with Christ, and accounted as sons of Abraham as a result of this.

By the way, this brings up the subject of the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16.

Only the sins of the Israelites were atoned for on the Day of Atonement ceremony mentioned in Leviticus 16.

The Day of Atonement was typological of Jesus' sacrifice, so if we consider this aspect of the Day of Atonement (that it did not apply to the surrounding Gentile nations), we can see that non-believers' sins are not covered by Jesus' sacrifice in any manner.

This would support the concept of limited atonement.
Those who converted were Israel. Just as all believers today are Israel.