Catholicism vs Protestantism

[Jackson123]

The issue with "sola scriptura" is not that we shouldn't look to the Bible as our authority for doctrine, it's that even defining what the Bible is requires looking to the historic authority of the church. There's no escaping tradition, it's just a matter of what tradition you fall into. The Bible does not present itself interpreted in a pretty little box, either and reading it for yourself without some structural support from those who have come before is bound to lead to misinterpretations especially if you can't read it in the original languages to see where theology has driven translation(which happens more than translators would care to admit).

I believe in the teaching of Jesus that say, Holy Spirit will lead us to understand Bible, it is ok to listen to preacher interpretation but one must honestly pray asking god if that interpretation is pure no vested interest

In the history of Christianity always there is an so call expert. Not honest and teach wrong doctrine for money

Example sale certificate of forgiveness.

That is why believe Jesus and test all teaching.

It is historically prof that follow big man teaching without careful examination lead to astray.

Please put your trust in Jesus, not human

 

[Bbrdrd]

I believe in the teaching of Jesus that say, Holy Spirit will lead us to understand Bible, it is ok to listen to preacher interpretation but one must honestly pray asking god if that interpretation is pure no vested interest

In the history of Christianity always there is an so call expert. Not honest and teach wrong doctrine for money

Example sale certificate of forgiveness.

That is why believe Jesus and test all teaching.

It is historically prof that follow big man teaching without careful examination lead to astray.

Please put your trust in Jesus, not human

My trust is in Jesus, but the issue is not purely one of faith. It is my belief that we must be aware of historical traditions and where they stem from, use our own reasoning abilities, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in determining what the Bible says. The issue with the protestant position isn't that they don't have some valid, Biblical points but that many of the doctrines they teach as "That's what the Bible says" were either invented whole cloth by Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and others and then taught as authoritative or they can be traced back to Augustine and an unfortunate latin translation of Romans 5. Looking to what men have said on the issue doesn't determine what the Bible says for me, but I am able to seek discernment and apply reason. Too often "sola scriptura" is used as an excuse for holding to ahistoric interpretations rather than viewing the historical context of a passage.

 

[Jackson123]

My trust is in Jesus, but the issue is not purely one of faith. It is my belief that we must be aware of historical traditions and where they stem from, use our own reasoning abilities, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in determining what the Bible says. The issue with the protestant position isn't that they don't have some valid, Biblical points but that many of the doctrines they teach as "That's what the Bible says" were either invented whole cloth by Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and others and then taught as authoritative or they can be traced back to Augustine and an unfortunate latin translation of Romans 5. Looking to what men have said on the issue doesn't determine what the Bible says for me, but I am able to seek discernment and apply reason. Too often "sola scriptura" is used as an excuse for holding to ahistoric interpretations rather than viewing the historical context of a passage.

So you believe in Augustine teaching?

I believe in Jesus teaching.

Do you believe Jesus teach pray to Mary?

Do you believe Jesus ever teach to sale the certificate of forgiveness?

 

[Bbrdrd]

So you believe in Augustine teaching?

I believe in Jesus teaching.

Do you believe Jesus teach pray to Mary?

Do you believe Jesus ever teach to sale the certificate of forgiveness?

No, I actually reject Augustine's teaching. It's largely what puts me at odds with a lot of Christians and gets me labeled a heretic in the eyes of both Catholics and protestants.

The issue is unless you're hearing and seeing Jesus' teachings for yourself and not through the medium of reading a translated book you're taking on doctrine without even realizing it.

A great example of this is found in how the NIV translates "sarx" the Greek word that means "flesh" but rather than simply leaving it as "flesh" the NIV translators put their doctrinal spin on it and translated it "sinful nature." There are numerous issues like this within the text so if you're reading a translated book, you're trusting someone else's opinion.

 

[Jackson123]

No, I actually reject Augustine's teaching. It's largely what puts me at odds with a lot of Christians and gets me labeled a heretic in the eyes of both Catholics and protestants.

The issue is unless you're hearing and seeing Jesus' teachings for yourself and not through the medium of reading a translated book you're taking on doctrine without even realizing it.

A great example of this is found in how the NIV translates "sarx" the Greek word that means "flesh" but rather than simply leaving it as "flesh" the NIV translators put their doctrinal spin on it and translated it "sinful nature." There are numerous issues like this within the text so if you're reading a translated book, you're trusting someone else's opinion.

I don't speak koine Greek, but I believe

Mark 12:30-31 New International Version (NIV)

30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

This is the principle of Jesus teaching.

Do not murder

you not kill your love one

Do not steal
You not steal from your love one

Matt 22:40
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
So if there are small mistake in the translation we have a tester, if that consistent with this verse?

 

[Bbrdrd]

I don't speak koine Greek, but I believe

Mark 12:30-31 New International Version (NIV)

30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

This is the principle of Jesus teaching.

Do not murder

you not kill your love one

Do not steal
You not steal from your love one

Matt 22:40
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
So if there are small mistake in the translation we have a tester, if that consistent with this verse?

There are just a few little issues with this claim. Unless you're saying that 1200+ pages of the Bible are wasted text, there's a lot more to what God has to say than just that little bit. And it gets filtered to us through men and interpreted by us through our biases. "Sola scriptura" even for the reformers doesn't actually mean only the Bible and the claim that there is no tradition guiding your interpretations is either self-deceit or outright lying. Someone told you that the 66 books that are in the protestant Bible are the real Bible, someone decided the Jewish canon from the council of Jamnia overruled centuries of Christian tradition that included the 7 "apocryphal" books and it wasn't because they loved the Bible but because their opinion of what it said was more important than breaking their doctrine on the pages of Scripture.

 

[Jackson123]

There are just a few little issues with this claim. Unless you're saying that 1200+ pages of the Bible are wasted text, there's a lot more to what God has to say than just that little bit. And it gets filtered to us through men and interpreted by us through our biases. "Sola scriptura" even for the reformers doesn't actually mean only the Bible and the claim that there is no tradition guiding your interpretations is either self-deceit or outright lying. Someone told you that the 66 books that are in the protestant Bible are the real Bible, someone decided the Jewish canon from the council of Jamnia overruled centuries of Christian tradition that included the 7 "apocryphal" books and it wasn't because they loved the Bible but because their opinion of what it said was more important than breaking their doctrine on the pages of Scripture.

So you don't believe what Jesus say?
Matt
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I do believe that verse, and 1200 page is to explain in detail

Say : love your neighbor like yourself.

It mean, do not kill your neighbor, feed them when they hungry, forgive them when they wrong you
If they slap your left cheek, give your right cheek and a lot of application of this one cpsentence

When He say love your God, mean pray to Him alone, worship Him and have faith in Him

And all the story about abraham tell us how to have faith in God, if you don't have in god than read about history of Israel every time they run to idol than there are consequences.

That is basically I believe. Pray to the death is not follow God will, mean not love God.

 

[Bbrdrd]

So you don't believe what Jesus say?
Matt
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I do believe that verse, and 1200 page is to explain in detail

Say : love your neighbor like yourself.

It mean, do not kill your neighbor, feed them when they hungry, forgive them when they wrong you
If they slap your left cheek, give your right cheek and a lot of application of this one cpsentence

When He say love your God, mean pray to Him alone, worship Him and have faith in Him

And all the story about abraham tell us how to have faith in God, if you don't have in god than read about history of Israel every time they run to idol than there are consequences.

That is basically I believe. Pray to the death is not follow God will, mean not love God.

Is part of love in your eyes twisting words and misrepresenting the person you're speaking to? Jesus gives us the lens through which to view the law but we still must encounter it to learn how that is expressed. If that really is all you need, why not just post those verses on your wall and throw out the rest of your Bible?

 

[Jackson123]

Is part of love in your eyes twisting words and misrepresenting the person you're speaking to? Jesus gives us the lens through which to view the law but we still must encounter it to learn how that is expressed. If that really is all you need, why not just post those verses on your wall and throw out the rest of your Bible?

I told you the rest of the Bible tell the detail of those 2 verses

Let me copy what Jesus say and up to you if you believe in Him or not, but I do believe

Matthew 22:36-40 King James Version (KJV)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

let me ask you a question

What is verse 40 mean to you?

Hang All the law and.....

Did Jesus lie?

 

[Bbrdrd]

I told you the rest of the Bible tell the detail of those 2 verses

Let me copy what Jesus say and up to you if you believe in Him or not, but I do believe

Matthew 22:36-40 King James Version (KJV)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

let me ask you a question

What is verse 40 mean to you?

Hang All the law and.....

Did Jesus lie?

It's not a matter of whether I believe in Him, and the fact that you keep impugning my belief because I disagree with your very human ideas about the Bible is rather off-putting. Whether you acknowledge it or not you have thoughts about the nature of man, the nature of sin, the nature of the atonement that are all built on human interpretations and decisions where ambiguity comes into it. You trust men to interpret the Bible for you when you read one translation over another, and in weighting different parts of the Bible when there are conflicts. And as I said, even your decision that the Bible is the protestant 66 books was a decision made purely by Luther who also discounted books that made their way back into the Bible like James, Hebrews, and Revelation. You fail to recognize your dependence on traditions and act like there is no historical faith or that it is each believer on their own discovering the truth anew.

 

[Jackson123]

It's not a matter of whether I believe in Him, and the fact that you keep impugning my belief because I disagree with your very human ideas about the Bible is rather off-putting. Whether you acknowledge it or not you have thoughts about the nature of man, the nature of sin, the nature of the atonement that are all built on human interpretations and decisions where ambiguity comes into it. You trust men to interpret the Bible for you when you read one translation over another, and in weighting different parts of the Bible when there are conflicts. And as I said, even your decision that the Bible is the protestant 66 books was a decision made purely by Luther who also discounted books that made their way back into the Bible like James, Hebrews, and Revelation. You fail to recognize your dependence on traditions and act like there is no historical faith or that it is each believer on their own discovering the truth anew.

So you believe matt 22:36-40 is wrong translation?

Do you speak koine Greek? What is the original translation mean?

You say Luther lie? How about Catholic, are they honest?

 

[Jackson123]

It's not a matter of whether I believe in Him, and the fact that you keep impugning my belief because I disagree with your very human ideas about the Bible

Jesus say all the law and prophet hang on those 2 verses

You do believe or not?

You say my very human idea about the Bible, are there anything else idea beside human?

Bible is for human god know how human capacity to understand bible.

 

[Bbrdrd]

So you believe matt 22:36-40 is wrong translation?

Do you speak koine Greek? What is the original translation mean?

You say Luther lie? How about Catholic, are they honest?

I'm not even discussing Matthew 22. It's a red herring and doesn't really contribute to the question at hand.

My ability to read koine Greek isn't really relevant. The point is unless you're reading it in the koine Greek you're having the message filtered through men's decisions.

It's not that Luther lied, but that he single handledly changed what protestants consider to be the Bible through putting books he didn't like into an appendix. It was his opinion and his opinion alone that mattered in that shaping.

 

[Bbrdrd]

Jesus say all the law and prophet hang on those 2 verses

You do believe or not?

You say my very human idea about the Bible, are there anything else idea beside human?

Bible is for human god know how human capacity to understand bible.

Yes I believe Jesus when He says that. It's not relevant to the question of whether "sola scriptura" as protestants understand it is appropriate though.


By your human opinion I don't mean your reading of the Bible, but your opinion that somehow the Bible is supposed to be read in a vacuum without being informed by tradition. You keep implying that somehow my belief in Jesus rests on whether I accept a proposition that was thought up by Luther.

 

[Jackson123]

I'm not even discussing Matthew 22. It's a red herring and doesn't really contribute to the question at ha

I think by understand bible hang on those 2 verses we have a tool to judge sola scriptura Wong or wright.
Is sola scriptura violate those 2 verses?

My ability to read koine Greek isn't really relevant. The point is unless you're reading it in the koine Greek you're having the message filtered through men's decisions.

That mean unless you able to speak koine Greek you read bible that edited by human, am I correct?

I assumed you do speak koine Greek because you don't want to read message through man decisions, am I correct?

It's not that Luther lied, but that he single handledly changed what protestants consider to be the Bible through putting books he didn't like into an appendix. It was his opinion and his opinion alone that mattered in that shaping.

You mean he don't consider apocrypha as the Bible is a mistake?

I respect your perspective, but I am not agree. To me the book that teach pray to the death is unbiblical

 

[Jackson123]

Yes I believe Jesus when He says that. It's not relevant to the question of whether "sola scriptura" as protestants understand it is appropriate though.


By your human opinion I don't mean your reading of the Bible, but your opinion that somehow the Bible is supposed to be read in a vacuum without being informed by tradition. You keep implying that somehow my belief in Jesus rests on whether I accept a proposition that was thought up by Luther.

So you don't want reading bible by human opinion

But by the guide of tradition

That mean you believe tradition is not human opinion, am I correct?

To me I believe reading bible must guide by Holy Spirit. Vacuum from Holy Spirit guidance will sale forgiveness certificate, guide by greed

 

[Bbrdrd]

I think by understand bible hang on those 2 verses we have a tool to judge sola scriptura Wong or wright.
Is sola scriptura violate those 2 verses?

That mean unless you able to speak koine Greek you read bible that edited by human, am I correct?

I assumed you do speak koine Greek because you don't want to read message through man decisions, am I correct?

You mean he don't consider apocrypha as the Bible is a mistake?

I respect your perspective, but I am not agree. To me the book that teach pray to the death is unbiblical

You're going to have to explain how reading those two verses confirms the distortion that every individual should read the Bible free from any historic doctrine.

I have some ability to read koine Greek, enough to drive accordance software. But yes, I read the Bible in a filtered sense relying on men's translations. This is counter balanced by my awareness of it and ability to look into the original language for myself.

What makes it "apocrypha" and not deuterocanonical as considered by both the Catholics and the Orthodox and just about every writer on the topic prior to Luther and every ecumenical council that addressed the topic? What are you basing your idea of what is and isn't the Bible on?

 

[Jackson123]

You're going to have to explain how reading those two verses confirms the distortion that every individual should read the Bible free from any historic doctrine.

I say, I believe in Jesus that say on those those 2 verse hang all the law, so if there is a law pay me 1000 dollar and I forgive your sin, than I question that law, is that base of love or greed. If the church have power to forgive the sin why not do it free for love sake.

What do you mean by historic doctrine, is that pray to Mary?

I never read in historic apostle (the book of act) they teach pray to Mary

To me historic or document doctrine is bible

 

[Jackson123]

What makes it "apocrypha" and not deuterocanonical as considered by both the Catholics and the Orthodox and just about every writer on the topic prior to Luther and every ecumenical council that addressed the topic? What are you basing your idea of what is and isn't the Bible on?

I never read directly those book but some article that quote that book I did, and to me its not consistent with the Bible

 

[Jackson123]

This is I believe about why Martin Luther protest to Catholic Church and make doctrine sola scriptura

Catholic lie to her own people that she have power to forgive the sin and whosoever want to buy that power, it is a viable for sale.

So luther counter that deception by say sola scriptura, this is antitheses from deceptive doctrine.

In other word, Martin say that is not in the scripture, just believe nothing but scripture.

So the doctrine sola scriptura born of love, love the poor from catholic greed doctrine.

Matthew 22:36-40 King James Version (KJV)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain