Are Women Not Allowed to Preach in Every Case?

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OneOfHis

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Mar 24, 2019
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I'd rather hear sound doctrine from my sisters in Christ, than the nonsense I hear many peddle with their false "gospels".

So many hours I have spent sharing the gospel or clashing with other "gospels" ...


To say God hasn't given any of His daughters things to share, or the right to spread the truth of Christ is not biblical.


Thank you to all my sisters who give glory to Jesus, regardless how many people you speak in front of when you do it.
 

Diakonos

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Jan 19, 2019
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I don't accept your interpretation of Genesis 1 as valid. I don't agree with your chain of reasoning in 1 Timothy 2; the phrase, "first among equals" is an oxymoron. I think you're using circular reasoning in your understanding of 1 Timothy 5.
“first among equals,” or primi inter pares, meaning “first ones among equals.”
The principle of “first among equals” is observed first in our Lord’s dealings with the twelve apostles. Jesus chose twelve apostles, all of whom He empowered to preach and heal, but He singled out three for special attention—Peter, James, and John (“first ones among equals”). Among the three, as well as among the Twelve, Peter stood out as the most prominent (“first among equals”). Consider the following facts:

• Among the twelve apostles, Peter, James, John, and sometimes Andrew are “first ones among equals.” On key occasions Jesus chose only Peter, James, and John to accompany Him to witness His power, glory, and agony (Luke 8:51; 9:28; Mark 14:33).
• Among the three, as well as the Twelve, Peter is unquestionably first among his equals. In all four lists of the apostles’ names, Peter’s name is first (Matt. 10:2–4; Mark 3:16–19; Luke 6:14–16; Acts 1:13). Matthew actually refers to Peter as “the first” (Matt. 10:2). By calling Peter “the first,” Matthew means “first among his equals.” We must not, in reaction to Roman Catholicism’s mistaken elevation of Peter, underestimate Peter’s outstanding leadership among the Twelve. The Gospel writers don’t.
• In all four Gospels, Peter is indisputably the prominent figure among the Twelve. Outside of Jesus, Peter is mentioned most often as speaking and acting. If you doubt this, look up the name Peter in a Bible concordance, then look up the names of the other apostles. You will immediately see Peter’s prominence among the Twelve in the four Gospels and in Acts.
• Jesus charged Peter to “strengthen your brothers” (Luke 22:32). Jesus acknowledged Peter as first among his brothers, the natural leader and motivator. He knew that they would need Peter’s leadership to help them through the dark days immediately following their Lord’s departure.
• The book of Acts richly demonstrates Peter’s leadership. Among the Twelve who jointly shared the leadership of the first church (Acts 2:14, 42; 4:33, 35; 5:12, 18, 25, 29, 42; 6:2–6; 8:14; 9:27; 15:2–29), Peter is the chief spokesman and natural leader throughout the first twelve chapters of Acts (Acts 1:15; 2:14; 3:1 ff; 4:8 ff; 5:3 ff; 5:15, 29; 8:14–24; 9:32–11:18; 12:3 ff; 15:7–11; Gal. 2:7–14). Some scholars even divide the book of Acts according to its two central figures: the acts of Peter (Acts 1–12) and the acts of Paul (Acts 13–28).. They view the book of Acts as the record of that promise fulfilled (especially Acts 10:1–11:18).
• In Paul’s letter to the Galatians, Paul speaks of James, Peter, and John as the acknowledged “pillars” of the church in Jerusalem (Gal. 2:9; see also Gal. 2:7, 8).

The “first among equals” leadership relationship can also be observed among the Seven who were chosen to relieve the apostles in Acts 6. Philip and Stephen stood out as prominent figures among the five other brothers (Acts 6:8–7:60; 8:4–40; 21:8). Yet, as far as the account records, the two held no special title or status above the others.
The concept of “first among equals” is further evidenced by the relationship of Paul and Barnabas on their first missionary journey. Paul and Barnabas were both apostles (Acts 13:1–3; 14:4; 15:36–39; 1 Cor. 9:1–6), yet Paul was first between the two because he was “the chief speaker” and dynamic leader (Acts 13:13; 14:12). Although Paul was plainly the more gifted of the two apostles, he held no formal ranking over Barnabas; they labored as partners in the work of the gospel. A similar relationship seems to have existed between Paul and Silas, who was also an apostle (1 Thess. 2:6).
Finally, the “first among equals” concept is evidenced by the way in which congregations are to honor their elders. Paul wrote specific instructions concerning elders to the church in Ephesus: “Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, ‘You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,’ and The laborer is worthy of his wages’ ” (1 Tim. 5:17, 18). All elders must be able to teach the Word, but not all desire to work fully at preaching and teaching. Those who are gifted in teaching and spend the time to do so should be properly acknowledged by the local church. They should receive double honor.
This doesn’t mean, however, that elders who are first among their equals do all the thinking and decision-making for the group, or that they are the pastors while the others are merely elders. To call one elder “pastor” and the rest “elders” or one elder “the clergyman” and the rest “lay elders” is to act without biblical precedence. To do so will not result in a Biblical eldership. It will, at least in practice, create a separate, superior office over the eldership, just as was done in the early second century when the division between “the overseer” and “elders” occurred.
The advantage of the principle of “first among equals” is that it allows for functional, gift-based diversity within the eldership team without creating an official, superior office over fellow elders. Just as the leading apostles, such as Peter and John, bore no special title or formal distinctions from the other apostles, elders who receive double honor form no official class or receive no special title. The differences among the elders are functional, not formal.

I'm surprised that this has never crossed you mind??

Like I mentioned before, There is equality, yet submission within the Godhead. That's why Jesus said "the Father is greater than I" (not in equality, but in position/role.)
 
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The authority/headship/covering of man over all things (especially in marriage) is a mirror of the headship of God.

"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. (1 Cor 11:3).

The order of creation and gender roles are pre-law and pre-fall because they are rooted in the character of God Himself. Man and women are equal in essence, but different in responsibility......just as Christ is is equal to the Father yet submits to Him.....just as the Church are co-heirs with Christ, yet they serve Him.
There is submission even within the Godhead, most people don't see that. All 3 members of the Trinity work together and in unison. e.g. Ephesians ch 1: The Father planned the Church (vs 3, 5), the Son payed for the Church (vs 7) and the Spirit protects the Church (vs 13-14). He wants us to know our role and participate in His wonderful plan.

When giving the reason for "not allowing women to teach or exercise authority over a man", Paul says the reason is because Adam was created "first". By stating in 1 Timothy 2:13 that Adam was created first, Paul means that in the creation design of male and female Adam, the male, was first among equals. God uniquely designed the man, physically, emotionally, and spiritually, to be head of the relationship and the woman to complement his headship position. It is profoundly significant that God did not create Adam and Eve at the same time. Instead, woman was made after the man, from the man, for the man, brought to the man, and named by the man (Gen. 2:20–23; cf. 1 Cor. 11:8, 9). So......the bottom line is therefore:

Since 1 Timothy 5:17 states that elders lead and teach the church and since women are not to teach or lead men, it follows, therefore, that women cannot be elders in the church.
This is really just a bang on explanation. Makes me remember also that man is the Imago Dei, created in the image of God. Woman is then the image of man, for she is called woman because she was taken out of man. This is important because this is the order God made them, and under God's order was life eternal.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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I don't accept your interpretation of Genesis 1 as valid. I don't agree with your chain of reasoning in 1 Timothy 2; the phrase, "first among equals" is an oxymoron. I think you're using circular reasoning in your understanding of 1 Timothy 5.
Dino.....I have yet to see you agree to much of ANYTHING posted on this board. Amazing really.
BTW....Diakonos is mostly right in his discourse.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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Allowed by whom? By God or by men?
Refer back to Romans 14. Whatsoever you're doing out of faith is not sin, and vice versa if your motives aren't clean then it is sin.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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Allowed by whom? By God or by men?
Refer back to Romans 14. Whatsoever you're doing out of faith is not sin, and vice versa if your motives aren't clean then it is sin.
So the question is, will God forbid what is done out of faith? Because it says in the Word that faith pleased God... people like cut and dry answers but to really judge righteously one needs to know the heart...
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Dino.....I have yet to see you agree to much of ANYTHING posted on this board. Amazing really.
I don't often comment on things with which I agree, though I post a fair number of "Like" and "Agree" icons. You likely wouldn't see that unless you specifically looked.

BTW....Diakonos is mostly right in his discourse.
Thanks for your opinion. :)

I'm surprised that you're commenting on my posts at all, as I thought you had put me on Ignore months ago.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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I don't often comment on things with which I agree, though I post a fair number of "Like" and "Agree" icons. You likely wouldn't see that unless you specifically looked.


Thanks for your opinion. :)

I'm surprised that you're commenting on my posts at all, as I thought you had put me on Ignore months ago.
Heaven forbid Sir.
 
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This is really just a bang on explanation. Makes me remember also that man is the Imago Dei, created in the image of God. Woman is then the image of man, for she is called woman because she was taken out of man. This is important because this is the order God made them, and under God's order was life eternal.
Man is suppose to be superior to woman somehow because he was made first?
It was by man that sin entered this world.
And Eve was made from the same stuff as Adam. And Adam was made of the stuff that was created by God. And that stuff came from and was of God. Therefore, in matters of creation, Adam and Eve were equals.
"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
 
Feb 1, 2020
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Man is suppose to be superior to woman somehow because he was made first?
It was by man that sin entered this world.
And Eve was made from the same stuff as Adam. And Adam was made of the stuff that was created by God. And that stuff came from and was of God. Therefore, in matters of creation, Adam and Eve were equals.
"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
Man is the image of God, woman is the image of man. Woman was made for man, not man for the woman. This is the correct order of God, when this order is maintained there is peace, when this order is turned on its head, there is hell for everyone.

Yes, sin entered through a man because he disobeyed God and hearkened to the voice of his wife whom was deceived by the ancient dragon's three lies, but the man was not deceived. This is very important to understand. Let's not lose sight of whom is really to fault here, the dragon named Satan.

They were not created as equals, they were as counterparts with God-defined roles and it was good! Man was made to be head over the wife, and both were made to have dominion over the earth and the animals.

So one can see how in the Garden how this got totally thrown out of whack. Eve should have never listened to the animal, Satan, whom she was put in authority over. This failing anyways, man should have never listened to the woman whom he was put in authority over. They should have listened to God. Instead the woman listened to the dragon and the man listened to the woman and this flipped the order that God set forth totally around, and now every single thing, and even the earth and heavens themselves, have to die.

Now if the wicked men will stop conforming to the authority of women, and thereby making themselves servants of the kingdom of Satan, and will instead let Christ be his head then God will forgive him and save him for life eternal. Now if wicked women will repent of their evil and submit to the authority of their husbands and their fathers and let them be their heads, rather than be deceived into being under the authority of the dragon and a prey to his every lie, then shall God save her for life eternal. But there will be no forgiveness for Satan, and all his children in his pathetically backwards kingdom will be thrown into the lake of fire with him to burn in torment forever and ever, in the name of Jesus, amen.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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“first among equals,” or primi inter pares, meaning “first ones among equals.”
The principle of “first among equals” is observed first in our Lord’s dealings with the twelve apostles. Jesus chose twelve apostles, all of whom He empowered to preach and heal, but He singled out three for special attention—Peter, James, and John (“first ones among equals”). Among the three, as well as among the Twelve, Peter stood out as the most prominent (“first among equals”). Consider the following facts:

• Among the twelve apostles, Peter, James, John, and sometimes Andrew are “first ones among equals.” On key occasions Jesus chose only Peter, James, and John to accompany Him to witness His power, glory, and agony (Luke 8:51; 9:28; Mark 14:33).
• Among the three, as well as the Twelve, Peter is unquestionably first among his equals. In all four lists of the apostles’ names, Peter’s name is first (Matt. 10:2–4; Mark 3:16–19; Luke 6:14–16; Acts 1:13). Matthew actually refers to Peter as “the first” (Matt. 10:2). By calling Peter “the first,” Matthew means “first among his equals.” We must not, in reaction to Roman Catholicism’s mistaken elevation of Peter, underestimate Peter’s outstanding leadership among the Twelve. The Gospel writers don’t.
• In all four Gospels, Peter is indisputably the prominent figure among the Twelve. Outside of Jesus, Peter is mentioned most often as speaking and acting. If you doubt this, look up the name Peter in a Bible concordance, then look up the names of the other apostles. You will immediately see Peter’s prominence among the Twelve in the four Gospels and in Acts.
• Jesus charged Peter to “strengthen your brothers” (Luke 22:32). Jesus acknowledged Peter as first among his brothers, the natural leader and motivator. He knew that they would need Peter’s leadership to help them through the dark days immediately following their Lord’s departure.
• The book of Acts richly demonstrates Peter’s leadership. Among the Twelve who jointly shared the leadership of the first church (Acts 2:14, 42; 4:33, 35; 5:12, 18, 25, 29, 42; 6:2–6; 8:14; 9:27; 15:2–29), Peter is the chief spokesman and natural leader throughout the first twelve chapters of Acts (Acts 1:15; 2:14; 3:1 ff; 4:8 ff; 5:3 ff; 5:15, 29; 8:14–24; 9:32–11:18; 12:3 ff; 15:7–11; Gal. 2:7–14). Some scholars even divide the book of Acts according to its two central figures: the acts of Peter (Acts 1–12) and the acts of Paul (Acts 13–28).. They view the book of Acts as the record of that promise fulfilled (especially Acts 10:1–11:18).
• In Paul’s letter to the Galatians, Paul speaks of James, Peter, and John as the acknowledged “pillars” of the church in Jerusalem (Gal. 2:9; see also Gal. 2:7, 8).

The “first among equals” leadership relationship can also be observed among the Seven who were chosen to relieve the apostles in Acts 6. Philip and Stephen stood out as prominent figures among the five other brothers (Acts 6:8–7:60; 8:4–40; 21:8). Yet, as far as the account records, the two held no special title or status above the others.
The concept of “first among equals” is further evidenced by the relationship of Paul and Barnabas on their first missionary journey. Paul and Barnabas were both apostles (Acts 13:1–3; 14:4; 15:36–39; 1 Cor. 9:1–6), yet Paul was first between the two because he was “the chief speaker” and dynamic leader (Acts 13:13; 14:12). Although Paul was plainly the more gifted of the two apostles, he held no formal ranking over Barnabas; they labored as partners in the work of the gospel. A similar relationship seems to have existed between Paul and Silas, who was also an apostle (1 Thess. 2:6).
Finally, the “first among equals” concept is evidenced by the way in which congregations are to honor their elders. Paul wrote specific instructions concerning elders to the church in Ephesus: “Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, ‘You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,’ and The laborer is worthy of his wages’ ” (1 Tim. 5:17, 18). All elders must be able to teach the Word, but not all desire to work fully at preaching and teaching. Those who are gifted in teaching and spend the time to do so should be properly acknowledged by the local church. They should receive double honor.
This doesn’t mean, however, that elders who are first among their equals do all the thinking and decision-making for the group, or that they are the pastors while the others are merely elders. To call one elder “pastor” and the rest “elders” or one elder “the clergyman” and the rest “lay elders” is to act without biblical precedence. To do so will not result in a Biblical eldership. It will, at least in practice, create a separate, superior office over the eldership, just as was done in the early second century when the division between “the overseer” and “elders” occurred.
The advantage of the principle of “first among equals” is that it allows for functional, gift-based diversity within the eldership team without creating an official, superior office over fellow elders. Just as the leading apostles, such as Peter and John, bore no special title or formal distinctions from the other apostles, elders who receive double honor form no official class or receive no special title. The differences among the elders are functional, not formal.

I'm surprised that this has never crossed you mind??


Like I mentioned before, There is equality, yet submission within the Godhead. That's why Jesus said "the Father is greater than I" (not in equality, but in position/role.)
The superior office is seen by faith, the office of the Holy Spirit. He informs us we do not need men to teach us .He warns of of that kind of idea of serving the antichrists. Men who look to be venerated. . . . for the work God performs in them

No such thing as first among equals .The first will be last. That is a Catholic doctrine needed to build venerable men to lord it over the pew sitters. Peter the denier would be my last choice.

The word twelve is number that means the authority of God . The Holy Spirit uses 12 apostles out of the 27 listed and hundreds that were available to do the work of the apostle. Bring the word of God. .Sent them out two by two. The twelve minus Judas who was used to represent the spirit of judgement were set aside to be used in the Revelation 21 parable revealing the bride of Christ. Apostles are used as wall to the city prepared as his bride.

Twelve the key number in that parable as tribes to represent gates with the tribe of Dan set aside to represent the spirit of judgement together paint a picture of the chaste virgin bride the church . Again the one reason set aside for the twelve.

Outside of that use there is not need to divide apostles from apostles.
 
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Man is the image of God, woman is the image of man. Woman was made for man, not man for the woman. This is the correct order of God, when this order is maintained there is peace, when this order is turned on its head, there is hell for everyone.

Yes, sin entered through a man because he disobeyed God and hearkened to the voice of his wife whom was deceived by the ancient dragon's three lies, but the man was not deceived. This is very important to understand. Let's not lose sight of whom is really to fault here, the dragon named Satan.

They were not created as equals, they were as counterparts with God-defined roles and it was good! Man was made to be head over the wife, and both were made to have dominion over the earth and the animals.

So one can see how in the Garden how this got totally thrown out of whack. Eve should have never listened to the animal, Satan, whom she was put in authority over. This failing anyways, man should have never listened to the woman whom he was put in authority over. They should have listened to God. Instead the woman listened to the dragon and the man listened to the woman and this flipped the order that God set forth totally around, and now every single thing, and even the earth and heavens themselves, have to die.

Now if the wicked men will stop conforming to the authority of women, and thereby making themselves servants of the kingdom of Satan, and will instead let Christ be his head then God will forgive him and save him for life eternal. Now if wicked women will repent of their evil and submit to the authority of their husbands and their fathers and let them be their heads, rather than be deceived into being under the authority of the dragon and a prey to his every lie, then shall God save her for life eternal. But there will be no forgiveness for Satan, and all his children in his pathetically backwards kingdom will be thrown into the lake of fire with him to burn in torment forever and ever, in the name of Jesus, amen.
You need to give God more credit than making him in the image and likeness of your misogyny. If you read your bible, as I've done since I joined here and it has been many years since I did do that, you will find out you will be held accountable for everything you say on God's behalf.
Eve was never made in the image of man. That isn't even in the bible. You have an issue with origin. Adam was made from the dust of the ground. The dust of the ground was created by and from GOD!
Anything on Adam, be it his rib or his face, is from GOD! Man and woman were made in the image and likeness of God because all that they were created from and of is of and from God.

Stop gender baiting! You look ridiculous.
 
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Yes, superior in responsibility, not in value.
Well man failed huge on that score! Because it was by a man that sin entered into this world. Not by a woman. A man! Is what made it necessary for God to sacrifice himself to save all of humankind whom he chooses to save.
 
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just for us, we've come to think that it just 'fits-in' that a man and a woman who Love and live for Jesus Christ,
that they would be the best unit and team that they could through Him, amen...
for us, it is never a 'us and them', for 'WE are ONE in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour', amen...
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Eve was never made in the image of man. That isn't even in the bible.
Indeed... Genesis 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Unless he's working from a a different translation, he's probably misreading 1 Corinthians 11:7...

For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

But that says "woman is the glory of man", not "made in the image of man".
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Indeed... Genesis 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Unless he's working from a a different translation, he's probably misreading 1 Corinthians 11:7...

For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

But that says "woman is the glory of man", not "made in the image of man".
Adam was formed from the dust of the ground. Eve was made from Adams flesh and bone.

What we need to see is Gods anointing on women to preach.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Adam was formed from the dust of the ground. Eve was made from Adams flesh and bone.

What we need to see is Gods anointing on women to preach.
If you don't believe it can happen, you won't see it when it does. You will rely instead on your interpretation of certain passages and reject reality as strident, grasping, rebellious, or demonic.
 

Whispered

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Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
Adam was formed from the dust of the ground. Eve was made from Adams flesh and bone.

What we need to see is Gods anointing on women to preach.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
And as husband and wife the two become one. And of course, as the Saint Apostle Paul said, there is no male or female, no slave or free, no Gentile nor Jew, we are all one in Christ.. Why would anyone argue there is a division then in bringing the message of Christ?

God calls people to preach. Sure, there are women that are out there in it for the money. They're frauds, not preachers. Listening to them speak allows us to discern that rather quickly.
However, when there are actual anointed women pastors in the world, who are we to say God didn't call them? Who are we to second guess God because some wish to make scripture to say what they believe about women? When Paul had women serving the ministry of the Gospel as what were prophetesses then, because the word preacher wasn't in scripture, we can't say Paul said women aren't allowed to preach.
Well, we can. But we can't expect to be taken seriously when Paul never did say it. And proved that by praising women "preachers".
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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And as husband and wife the two become one. And of course, as the Saint Apostle Paul said, there is no male or female, no slave or free, no Gentile nor Jew, we are all one in Christ.. Why would anyone argue there is a division then in bringing the message of Christ?

God calls people to preach. Sure, there are women that are out there in it for the money. They're frauds, not preachers. Listening to them speak allows us to discern that rather quickly.
However, when there are actual anointed women pastors in the world, who are we to say God didn't call them? Who are we to second guess God because some wish to make scripture to say what they believe about women? When Paul had women serving the ministry of the Gospel as what were prophetesses then, because the word preacher wasn't in scripture, we can't say Paul said women aren't allowed to preach.
Well, we can. But we can't expect to be taken seriously when Paul never did say it. And proved that by praising women "preachers".
We have an example of bad interpretation and application of the scriptures. Yes there is no gender distinction when it comes to salvation. Yes there is no ethnic favor between Jew and Gentile in the matter of salvation. It is wholly incorrect to apply that to God using women and men interchangeably. Men are not more suited for childbirth than women are suited to pastor a church.

God has from the beginning of man established the man to be the head of the family. The man acts as the family priest in matters of the Spiritual. In fact God holds man responsible to teach his family the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger