Refuting The Cessationism Doctrine: Spiritual Gifts, Tongues, Miracles Haven’t Ceased Since Pentecost!!

[Guojing]

Are you saying that this was THE purpose for signs? Miracles and healing are also given to the body 'to profit withal' and they had an impact on those hearing the gospel who also saw the signs. Some Gentiles also believed after they saw the signs. Healing also benefited those who were healed, sometimes their families and other people (e.g. a man with a family who needed to support his family, Peter's mother-in-law being able to serve Jesus and his disciples.)

Signs and wonders were given to Moses in Exodus 4 for the Jews to believe that God is sending him to rescue them.

Signs and wonders were given to Jesus for the Jews to believe that he was indeed their promised Messiah (Luke 7:20-22, John 20:31)

Signs and wonders were given to the 12 after Jesus ascended to the heavens, for the Jews to believe that the Gospel of the Kingdom was still at hand, even after Israel put Jesus on the cross (Acts 3:16, Acts 4:16)

And I have already stated the reason why signs and wonders were also made available to Paul, for the Jews to accept his new gospel of the uncircumcision.

So God still heals today, that is correct, no one is denying that. But it is important for the Body of Christ to know that signs and wonders are no longer present today, such healings are not guaranteed to happen. They serve no purpose now. We are to believe in God by faith and not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7

 

[presidente]

Signs and wonders were given to Moses in Exodus 4 for the Jews to believe that God is sending him to rescue them.

Signs and wonders were given to Jesus for the Jews to believe that he was indeed their promised Messiah (Luke 7:20-22, John 20:31)

Signs and wonders were given to the 12 after Jesus ascended to the heavens, for the Jews to believe that the Gospel of the Kingdom was still at hand, even after Israel put Jesus on the cross (Acts 3:16, Acts 4:16)

And I have already stated the reason why signs and wonders were also made available to Paul, for the Jews to accept his new gospel of the uncircumcision.

So God still heals today, that is correct, no one is denying that. But it is important for the Body of Christ to know that signs and wonders are no longer present today, such healings are not guaranteed to happen. They serve no purpose now. We are to believe in God by faith and not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7

Sergius Paulus after Paul spoke the words and Elymas was blind. Sergius Paulus was a proconsul of the Roman empire. There is no reason to think he was Jewish. In Romans 15 we read:

18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.


Signs were not exclusively the Jews. Paul said the Jews required a sign, but that does not imply that from God's perspectives, signs existed to fulfill their desires. I find that argument as a basis for cessationism to be ridiculous, honestly. You pick one small facet of the function(s) of miracles and make that out to be the sole reason for the gifts. Other scriptures are troo, too. Like I pointed out earlier, gifts of the working of miracles and healing were for the benefit of the body of Christ.

We are to believe in God by faith and not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7

Paul, a miracle worker, wrote that. Peter walked by faith and not by sight when he walked on the water. When he looked around and saw the wind and the waves and doubted, he sank.

 

[Guojing]

Sergius Paulus after Paul spoke the words and Elymas was blind. Sergius Paulus was a proconsul of the Roman empire. There is no reason to think he was Jewish. In Romans 15 we read:

18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Signs were not exclusively the Jews. Paul said the Jews required a sign, but that does not imply that from God's perspectives, signs existed to fulfill their desires. I find that argument as a basis for cessationism to be ridiculous, honestly. You pick one small facet of the function(s) of miracles and make that out to be the sole reason for the gifts. Other scriptures are troo, too. Like I pointed out earlier, gifts of the working of miracles and healing were for the benefit of the body of Christ.

Paul, a miracle worker, wrote that. Peter walked by faith and not by sight when he walked on the water. When he looked around and saw the wind and the waves and doubted, he sank.

Well, when I accepted that Christ died for my sins and rose again on the 3rd day, as following 1 Cor 15:1-4, I did not ask the preacher to "show me a sign so that I can believe that is true". I simply took that as true by faith.

Maybe you had non-believers now asking you to show signs to them. Thus, if you feel there is still a role for signs and wonders under the gospel of grace, we can agree to disagree.

 

[presidente]

Well, when I accepted that Christ died for my sins and rose again on the 3rd day, as following 1 Cor 15:1-4, I did not ask the preacher to "show me a sign so that I can believe that is true". I simply took that as true by faith.

Maybe you had non-believers now asking you to show signs to them. Thus, if you feel there is still a role for signs and wonders under the gospel of grace, we can agree to disagree.

Do you think anyone had a right to demand God grant a sign through the apostles before they believed in God or accepted the Gospel. God doesn't owe anyone signs. Sometimes, He has granted them out of grace, mercy, or for his own purposes.

Do you think the apostles were not preaching 'the gospel of grace' when they were preaching in Acts? Do we live under a different gospel from the one in the Bible?

 

[Guojing]

Do you think anyone had a right to demand God grant a sign through the apostles before they believed in God or accepted the Gospel. God doesn't owe anyone signs. Sometimes, He has granted them out of grace, mercy, or for his own purposes.

Do you think the apostles were not preaching 'the gospel of grace' when they were preaching in Acts? Do we live under a different gospel from the one in the Bible?

If you read Exodus 4, it will enlighten you on how God used signs to convince Jews and it carried on before Christ, during Christ, as well as after Christ resurrection, basically all the way until Acts 28, until it was clear that even the Jewish diaspora rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Acts 28 marked the time where signs and wonders were being withdrawn.

It is not a weakness of Israel, it was how they were taught by God and it was what they expect. Israel is unique in that way. That is why, even during the Tribulation after the rest of us is raptured into heaven, God will make sure that signs and wonders will be activated once again in the presence of the Jews, by the 2 witnesses, as stated in Revelations 11.

 

[Dave-L]

Sod doyou think they could just drink milk shakes and eat french fries all the time back then since they had the apostles with them?

He healed a sick man in Lystra or Derbe at the beginning of Acts 14. I believe he said he did great miracles in Ephesus, after getting sick in Galatia.

If Paul's having an infirmity caused him to go to Galatia for the first time, whether you hold to the north or south Galatian theory, the latest was Acts 16 for his first visit there since Galatia is clearly named. South Galatian theory has better support and the epistle was likely written to the churches started in Acts 14.

We need scripture to say what you think. And it's not there.

 

[garee]

Signs and wonders are always given for a specific purpose. Paul, after he was saved and commissioned to reach the Gentiles with the Gospel of Grace, was given signs and wonders in order for the apostles, as well as the other Jewish believers, to know that he was indeed sent by God and his new gospel of the uncircumcision is a valid one.

If you recall Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council, what was one important reason how the Jewish believers were convinced by Paul and Baranabas? Vs 12 clearly states

All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

Notice that, unlike for us today, they cannot be convinced anyone telling them to "accept Paul by faith". If you are unable to produce signs, the Jews are not going to believe you. It was true from Moses in Exodus 4.

Many ignore the commandment not to seek after a signs and wonders gospel as if it did not apply to Christians .

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

That sign was fulfilled in Christ.

Notice its a "evil generation" natural unconverted mankind that does seek after signs and wonders or sign with a wonderment . We are warned to marvel not .We walk by faith the unseen

In the previous chapter the sign when seen by the spectators they turned the apostles into gods in the likeness of men. the sign revealed their unbelief as well as the prophecy that did work in the person Stand upright on thy feet. .

One of the main problems with sign and wonders seekers. Is the improper use of the word wonder. The word sign has a separate value from wonder.There are signs like signs of the times . And there are signs and wonders or a sign with a wonder. .Wonders are used as a source of faith .

Signs are for those who rebel making a mockery of the word of God prophecy. Prophecy the Tongue of God for those who believe not. Making the word of God without effect through the signs and lying wonders of men

 

[Guojing]

Many ignore the commandment not to seek after a signs and wonders gospel as if it did not apply to Christians .

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

That sign was fulfilled in Christ.

Notice its a "evil generation" natural unconverted mankind that does seek after signs and wonders or sign with a wonderment . We are warned to marvel not .We walk by faith the unseen

In the previous chapter the sign when seen by the spectators they turned the apostles into gods in the likeness of men. the sign revealed their unbelief as well as the prophecy that did work in the person Stand upright on thy feet. .

One of the main problems with sign and wonders seekers. Is the improper use of the word wonder. The word sign has a separate value from wonder.There are signs like signs of the times . And there are signs and wonders or a sign with a wonder. .Wonders are used as a source of faith .

Signs are for those who rebel making a mockery of the word of God prophecy. Prophecy the Tongue of God for those who believe not. Making the word of God without effect through the signs and lying wonders of men

The entire book of John recorded at least 7 specific signs, and the aim of those signs, as stated in John 20:30-31, is so that the Jews could believe Jesus is the Son of God.

So if your thesis is true, John should not have been written?

 

[garee]

Are you saying that this was THE purpose for signs? Miracles and healing are also given to the body 'to profit withal' and they had an impact on those hearing the gospel who also saw the signs. Some Gentiles also believed after they saw the signs. Healing also benefited those who were healed, sometimes their families and other people (e.g. a man with a family who needed to support his family, Peter's mother-in-law being able to serve Jesus and his disciples.)

We walk by faith not by seeing signs .Some did know Christ after what the eyes see,

Jesus spent his whole life discouraging the believer to not walk by sight after the the temporal .He informed us unless he left the work of the Holy Spirit would be limited to the group that were following after his teaching he received from the father. Propmised gearter works once he did disappeared. (God is not a man as us)

Jesus as the Son of man refused to stand in the unseen holy place of the father an abomination of desolation .



Mark 10:16-18 King James Version (KJV And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

When men bowed or kneeled down to him they blasphemed the Son of man .Which was forgivable for the 33 year window. Many today are still hoping God is a man as us and will return for some kind of another outward demonstration?? .

Where that idea comes from as a sign and wonder is a mystery.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

 

[garee]

The entire book of John recorded at least 7 specific signs, and the aim of those signs, as stated in John 20:30-31, is so that the Jews could believe Jesus is the Son of God.

So if your thesis is true, John should not have been written?

Its how we hear that which is written .Not through signs and wonders a pagan form of worship. We walk by faith the unseen eternal.

That work of dispelling a oral traditions of sinful men like Peter which would make the word of God without effect.

Peter the serial denier lied. Again Jesus did the work of dispelling. He forgave him of blasphemy in Mathew 16.

If every time the Spirit of Christ did the work of revealing the lies coming from the oral tradition of men . We would need a bigger world to hold the books that could of been written .

It is not a blank check for adding signs and wonders .That's is a Catholic idea of trying to give Peter some place that none of the apostles had to begin with .

Cant serve sings as wonderment gospel and prophecy as two teaching masters .A clear division must be made. The 12 as remnant of all are set aside for another one purpose ( Revelation 21)

He was not thanking Peter for making his word without effect . One demonstration is all that was needed.

Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. John 21:21-25

 

[Guojing]

Its how we hear that which is written .Not through signs and wonders a pagan form of worship. We walk by faith the unseen eternal.

That work of dispelling a oral traditions of sinful men like Peter which would make the word of God without effect.

Peter the serial denier lied. Again Jesus did the work of dispelling. He forgave him of blasphemy in Mathew 16.

If every time the Spirit of Christ did the work of revealing the lies coming from the oral tradition of men . We would need a bigger world to hold the books that could of been written .

It is not a blank check for adding signs and wonders .That's is a Catholic idea of trying to give Peter some place that none of the apostles had to begin with .

Cant serve sings as wonderment gospel and prophecy as two teaching masters .A clear division must be made. The 12 as remnant of all are set aside for another one purpose ( Revelation 21)

He was not thanking Peter for making his word without effect . One demonstration is all that was needed.

Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. John 21:21-25

Yes, we walk by faith now in the Body of Christ under the gospel of grace.

But Jews required a sign, they were brought up by God to expect signs, as already explained.

 

[garee]

Yes, we walk by faith now in the Body of Christ under the gospel of grace.

But Jews required a sign, they were brought up by God to expect signs, as already explained.

The jews were brought up to believe prophecy ,he warns them about sign and wonders seekers.

They made Jesus into a circus seal .

Perform something and when we see it then we will believe.

Prophecy for those who believe by faith. Signs like making a noise without meaning and then fall backward mocking God for those who rebel .

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him,(circus seal) What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

The law of signs verses prophecy .One teaching master .Which one? Signs or prophecy

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe 1 Corinthians 14:21 -33

The sign they use for mocking God "falling backward" is the one promised to expose them who have another kind of authority of hearing themselves. (refusing sola scriptura) hearing God.

Just ask them where they got the idea of falling backward from ? Why mock God for a little wonderment called self edifying. (self righteousness )

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I think we handle it as the word of God says he is false and in error pray for him and leave him alone unless you are led to confront him.

yes

I was wondering though, how people who watch him or think they can sift out the bad from the good, handle the false witness

I mean it's basically a lie what he stated and he just goes on to the next one

smh

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Paul wrote the one who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets. With interpretation it is edifying to the body.

I agree some have over-exaggerated the importance of speaking in tongues.

I am not sure what you've seen. But I know some Pentecostals would teach against coaching people to speak in tongues. I've seen someone try to coach someone on how to yield to it. I haven't seen Charismatics say, "bla bla bla' or whatever and try to get someone to utter something. I'm sure many Charismatics would be against the idea of trying to get someone to 'speak in tongues' by telling them to repeat certain syllables.

I also wouldn't assert that everything that claims to be speaking in tongues necessarily is, either. I believe in the Bible, but men are capable of all kinds of things.

Well, there isn't such a great divide between us in some ways because you are at least aware of the problems with these thing.

I am not convinced that the Pentecostal/charismatic/Word of Faith expression is biblical, though, and I really have issues with the credibility of any charismatic or Pentecostal I know, in terms of giving them that kind of credibility. Most are making outlandish claims and are internally inconsistent. Some are childish or immoral and others have mental illness. And, by the way, I am not deciding these things myself..they themselves have told me about their bouts with mental illness.

My grandma was a Pentecostal, and as much as I loved her, she was childish in her thinking, and so were the women that gathered for her occasional prayer meetings in her home.

Let me give you an example...my aunt divorced her husband due to infertility and his refusal to adopt. She married another man, and had a child by him. The child was born with cerebral palsy. It is my understanding that my grandma claimed to be speaking for God when she issued a curse against my aunt, in some type of altered voice, and the child was claimed to be the result.

This is according to my memory, which may be fallible, but if my grandma played such games with God, this is abominable. It is not wise to claim you are speaking for God regarding the details of someone's life.

Additionally, I was a member of a cult after this, and the cult often made fun of charismatic behavior. Well....the cult itself had bad doctrine and was in no position to be criticizing others, but seeing the behavior of Pentecostals/charismatics/Word of Faith people on TV did no help in regards to me being able to see that Christians had a reasonable basis for their faith.

For me, that came with being involved with Baptists, Calvary Chapel people, and ultimately Reformed people. Each of these groups had reasonable teachings at some level.

It may be that I was seeing extremes within charismatic circles, but at the same time, it seems like virtually every single charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith person I've met displays peculiarities in critical areas, including maturity, morality, or mental health. So, this is a significant barrier to my openmindedness.

I think it is also presumptuous for charismatics to expect us to believe that their understanding of these spiritual gifts is correct. If their experience are the "spectacles" through which they view Scripture, these experiences guide their understanding of the Scripture, rather than vice versa.

The use of the word "tongues" doesn't help me either..it seems like an ignorant term, as the word "language" is what is meant by the Greek words. Additionally, the first manifestation involved actual human languages. Clearer Scriptures should be the determining factor in viewing less clear Scriptures.

God is free to correct me on any of these issues, but I think He certainly expects me to judge whether any man who is trying to correct me is reasonable. For instance, if I knew the stability and reliability of a claimant through a long relationship with the person and knowing his mental and spiritual health status, then that person would have more credibility with me than some joker on a forum who makes claims. Especially since I have found that some of them are involved in gross immorality or have had issues with mental health.

Anyways those are some of my thoughts on this issue.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

God speaking to someone audibly is a Biblical phenomenon, so I hope you wouldn't discount someone based on that. For point 2, if it was that was all he said, that sounds pretty cooky. God unable to redeem homosexuals? That's unbiblical.

But, honestly, I don't want to say anything bad about the guy or his beliefs since i am getting this second hand, and I've seen in your posts that you don't make fine distinctions and lump things together too much in your mind for me to be comfortable with your interpretation of someone's statements you are relating second-hand. You seem to have a lot of unbiblical thinking, too. I quoted a verse from John, and that was evidence to you that Charismatics were loony. You also lump all Pentecostals in with WOFers, even though Pentecostals disagree with WOF theology. Of course, you have problems with points of doctrine that both groups hold in common. I'm sure you hold some basic beliefs in common with Pentecostals and even WOFers. You wrote that you believed in the resurrection, for example.

Don't let your attitudes towards these groups bias you. The scripture says that the Spirit gives gifts, including the working of miracles, gifts of healing, prophecy, tongues, interpretation, etc. as He wills. The same chapter (I Corinthians 12:28) indicates that there are non-apostle, non-prophet people gifted to heal and some gifted to work miracles. Can you show me scripture that gives you the right to declare that the Spirit does not or will not gifts people the way the scripture teaches he does? Is your cessationism based on scripture or based on not liking preachers you see on TV and some individuals you have met?

Again, the inability to make, or retain, fine distinctions. I believe faith is a factor in healing. There may be cases where someone is healed because he doesn't ask, because he asks and doesn't believe, or because of sin. You seemed unaware of scriptures that say things like 'according to your faith be it unto you' and the many other scriptures that tie healing to faith. I showed numerous scriptures, but only some of them. Do you find fault with these scriptures? How does what I said not align with them? I don't say sickness is definitely because of sin. Of a blind man, Jesus said neither this man sinned nor his parents, that he should be born blind. But to another individual he said go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon thee. There were many sick and many who fell asleep among the Corinthians because of sin. James also mentions sin in the passage about elders anointing with oil, "if they have committed sin, they shall be forgiven him.'

But there may be people who are not healed because they do not ask God in faith. There may be people not healed because the elders who anoint them do not believe God when they pray. Read James and tell me how you could think that would be contrary to what he wrote.

Jesus said, "...all things are possible to him that believes..."

If someone does not ask in prayer in faith for something they need or that would benefit them, I would not necessarily say that person is in sin, either. You are making assumptions that I do not.

Firstly, I have not discounted that faith could be a factor in healings. If an unbeliever is seeking healing from God, with no intention of having a relationship with him, then this may be an example of faithlessness being a cause of not being healed.

My basic issue is individuals who claim that suffering is not a normative part of the Christian life. It most certainly is, and it is something God uses to further the person's spiritual growth.

Secondly, I have little regard for charismatics and their opinion of me. If you tell me I hold unsound doctrine, that is like a 1000 pound man telling me I need to go on a diet. That might be true, as no one is perfect in doctrine, but a charismatic telling me I hold unbiblical doctrine amuses me. Like I said, they are like the 1000 pound man telling others they need to go on a diet.

Thirdly, it is true that I tend to lump charismatics/Pentecostals/WoF people all in one group, but the problem is that these groups tend to comingle themselves. I think you are making a big assumption that there isn't comingling of the groups. I doubt that many of them have actually thought out their theology that well, and can discern the differences themselves. Their theology is not very systematic, to start with. I doubt that there are any systematic theology books written by charismatics, for this reason.

There's only a few charismatics that I would pay any attention to....Gordon Fee has a pretty good reputation, and Sam Storms has some good teachings in some areas. Wayne Grudem is reputed to be a continuationist, but I am unsure how far his continuationism extends. I think he claims to speak in tongues. I would use his systematic theology volume for some purposes, though.

Fourthly, I believe in all the core teachings of Christianity including the bodily resurrection. You may want to see my profile and the remarks I make in the profile regarding this. I describe my position in depth on a number of areas.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I like this verse " Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them."

Praise God glory to Jesus we don't get to say who enters the kingdom huh

I have over 59 years listen to him off and on. I just don't agree with some things they teach. We had a fire here few years ago. Had to leave our homes. Well we get this phone call "Copeland ministries" They said "What do you need? What ever it is ask we will get it to you. Ask anything". What got us was ...how did they get our number? NO ONE from ANY other ministrey call us or those around us from what we know. I then searched seems they do this for storms, earthquakes you name it. Seems they take truck loads of things to these people...anyone in need.

So.. not my kid were talking about..

Roman Catholics do good works, too.

However, i wouldn't vouch for their theology.

In fact, I'd rather go to a Roman Catholic church than a Word of Faith church if given a choice between those two, and only those two.

I know many evangelicals would strongly disagree with that view, and I wouldn't attend a Roman Catholic church anyways as long as there are conservative Baptist or Presbyterian churches around...but given a choice between the two, I would choose the Roman Catholic church.

 

[presidente]

If you read Exodus 4, it will enlighten you on how God used signs to convince Jews and it carried on before Christ, during Christ, as well as after Christ resurrection, basically all the way until Acts 28, until it was clear that even the Jewish diaspora rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Acts 28 marked the time where signs and wonders were being withdrawn.

It is not a weakness of Israel, it was how they were taught by God and it was what they expect. Israel is unique in that way. That is why, even during the Tribulation after the rest of us is raptured into heaven, God will make sure that signs and wonders will be activated once again in the presence of the Jews, by the 2 witnesses, as stated in Revelations 11.

The problem is, as a theory for cessationism, the Bible doesn't teach this. It shows God performing signs in Egypt. God gave Moses signs to show the Israelites, stick into snake, the leprous hand. But Moses did signs before Pharaoh as well. God split the Red Sea and caused it to close over the Egyptian army, and He had said when He gained glory over Pharaoh and all his army, the Egyptians shall "know I am the LORD."

Signs were also for Gentiles back then.

When Paul wrote Romans 11, the situation was the same is it is now, in that there are those of Israel who are blinded and do not believe, and there is the remnant according to the election of grace. In the first century, there was actually a recognizable community among Israelites who believed in Yeshua. But in more recent centuries, such people may have generally had to join churches the Jews anathemized. But the situation still fits Paul's words in the passage.

You have theory that assumes a once-for-all rejection of Christ by the Jewish people later in the first century, while Romans 11 lays out the situation of the blinded and the remnant while Paul was alive. You have a theory that has signs and wonders removed (if I understand you right) after that historical point in time. The scriptures do not teach that.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Concerning my lack of precision in labeling groups, there is a problem.

I am addressing common issues with Pentecostals, charismatics and Word of Faith.

I have no generic word to use for these groups.

The word "continuationist" doesn't work because I believe in continuity of the spiritual gifts, so I don't want to be labeled as a cessationist. The difference for me is whether specific spiritual gifts still exist, and if so, then what is their precise manifestation? I don't believe contemporary continuationists are reflecting the real manifestation of these gifts, if they still exist. I think their behavior is being governed by their indoctrination. And, if a person is raised in a continuationist environment, they may not realize that this is true.

Additionally, I look for purpose. If the gift of language ( I won't use the word tongues) exists today, and is not related to the apostles and prophets, then it must have reasonable purpose. God doesn't give gifts for no purpose. I don't find much explanation about the purpose of such gifts.

At Pentecost, the gift of language had purpose. It showed the apostles that different groups of "outsiders" were being brought into the fold, in the same exact manner as the apostles themselves were brought in.

It also pointed to a reversal of the Curse. At the Tower of Babel, mankind was separated by human language. At Pentecost, we see language barriers being rescinded, at least at the moment of conversion, to show that all mankind was being brought back together again. The Church is a new humanity without racial barriers.

So, I look for purpose in Scripture, not just disjointed experiences that don't make any sense. And, I don't believe the continuationist metanarrative is coherent.

 

[presidente]

Firstly, I have not discounted that faith could be a factor in healings.

Why would you be critical of my position, then?

If an unbeliever is seeking healing from God, with no intention of having a relationship with him, then this may be an example of faithlessness being a cause of not being healed.

Does that mean you are telling the little grandma from some other religion that has artrhitis, "It's your fault you have athritis"?

Secondly, I have little regard for charismatics and their opinion of me. If you tell me I hold unsound doctrine, that is like a 1000 pound man telling me I need to go on a diet. That might be true, as no one is perfect in doctrine, but a charismatic telling me I hold unbiblical doctrine amuses me. Like I said, they are like the 1000 pound man telling others they need to go on a diet.

I would ask you to pray about your heart attitude toward other believers and consider whether you are a bit of a snob, and think of yourself more highly than others. If certain men take up a lot of airtime promoting certain doctrinal error, and they believe in gifts of the Spirit, that doesn't mean that the apostles were wrong for believing in gifts of the Spirit. If someone utters a false prophecy, now, that doesn't make all prophecy false. It doesn't make Isaiah a false prophet. Nor does it make all who believe in gifts of the Spirit now false.

I try to put myself in your shoes. If I hadn't grown up hearing sound Bible teaching and fellowshipping with people who were devoted to Christ who believed in and in some cases operated in these gifts of the Spirit, and I just saw certain men on TV promoting the idea who were preaching money into their pockets, I might be skeptical. But someone who goes to a type of church I grew up in who only encountered really left-wing clergy from European state churches could have similar views about movements like Anglicanism, Lutheranism, or the various Calvinist state churches may have a negative attitude about those whole movements. If all we saw of Baptists or Calvinism was Westboro Baptist people protesting at funerals, what kind of impression would we have?

Thirdly, it is true that I tend to lump charismatics/Pentecostals/WoF people all in one group, but the problem is that these groups tend to comingle themselves. I think you are making a big assumption that there isn't comingling of the groups. I doubt that many of them have actually thought out their theology that well, and can discern the differences themselves. Their theology is not very systematic, to start with. I doubt that there are any systematic theology books written by charismatics, for this reason.

I wouldn't say there is no comingling among different groups. There are Pentecostals who would have WOFers speak at their churches and those that would reject it. There are also different Pentecostal denominations.

How many theologians have written a systematic theology, anyway? Sam Storms, who you are familiar with, has written on the topic. He might not call himself 'Charismatic' but believes in the exercise of spiritual gifts in the church. I believe Gordan Fee's background is Assemblies of God, a Pentecostal denomination. Craig Keener is a continuationist, also. He works at Asbury Theological Seminar. He is known for his Bible commentaries. He has written a work entitled Miracles also. Cessationism is an untenable position to hold, Biblically. There are continuationists of all kinds of theological backgrounds.

As far as 'Charismatics' go, the largest group that takes that label is in the RCC. There are Charismatic Lutherans. Not all Calvinists have always been cessationists. There were the 'French Prophets'. There are accounts of prophecies and miracles in the Scottish Reformation. During the Covenanter movement, Alexander Peden was known as 'prophet Peden', who prophesied or received similar revelation, predicting John Brown's death and knowing it happened from far away when it occurred, and reportedly praying over the deceased body of a young Irish nobleman until he came back to life.

Cessationism evolved over time. Something I notice with Protestant denominations that tended toward cessationism early on is that many of them have moved toward liberalism==not believing in the authority of scripture and eventually embracing left-wing moral stances on issues like abortion and gay marriage. Some of the denominations have 'co-mingling' with conservatives and those who hold to unChristian viewpoints on issues of faith and morality. I wonder if the steps go from not believing God's power can or will work in certain ways today to being skeptical about whether the power of God worked in the past. Cessationism and the arguments for it we see today seem to have grown out of 'Englightenment' thinking. Cessationism is a convenient way of thinking for those surrounded by Deists or Modernists who either believe God does not interfere with the world, or that everything is explained by natural phenomenon. The cessationist can think the world operates the way a Deist or Modernist think it does now, and just relegate all the stuff that doesn't fit that thinking to the past. It's one more step to say God didn't really operate like that back then, either.

Historically, the church was not cessationist, either. Augustine made a comment used by cessationists when he was young, but later recorded a number of supernatural healings (lots of fistula healings for some reason) and encouraged people to testify of their healings.

Fourthly, I believe in all the core teachings of Christianity including the bodily resurrection. You may want to see my profile and the remarks I make in the profile regarding this. I describe my position in depth on a number of areas.

That's great. The resurrection of Christ is a core teaching. I agree with you. I would also point out that believing all the other teachings of scripture is important, too. In this thread, one topic discussed is that the scriptures teach that the Spirit gifts members of the body of Christ 'as the Spirit wills.'

 

[presidente]

The use of the word "tongues" doesn't help me either..it seems like an ignorant term, as the word "language" is what is meant by the Greek words. Additionally, the first manifestation involved actual human languages. Clearer Scriptures should be the determining factor in viewing less clear Scriptures.

I agree that 'tongues' means 'languages', but I also grew up using the KJV, so I use certain terminology. I don't use 'Thee' when I pray, though. Historically, Pentecostals saw tongues as 'languages.' I think most in the US still do if they consider or study the issue at all. There were a number of testimonies from Azusa Street of people speaking in languages recognized by other people who spoke them. LA was an international city even back then. One of the people there, interviewed probably in the late '60's or early '70's said the people speaking in foreign languages is what drew the crowds. I've known a number of people who have had similar experiences.

God is free to correct me on any of these issues, but I think He certainly expects me to judge whether any man who is trying to correct me is reasonable. For instance, if I knew the stability and reliability of a claimant through a long relationship with the person and knowing his mental and spiritual health status, then that person would have more credibility with me than some joker on a forum who makes claims. Especially since I have found that some of them are involved in gross immorality or have had issues with mental health.

I hope you aren't calling me a joker. I've never been to a psychiatrist or therapist. I've felt depressed a few days over a girl when I was young, but I wouldn't categorize that as an abnormal 'mental health' issue.

That was quite a story about your grandmother. I cannot comment on that situation in particular, but i do not see it as wrong to prophesy about someone's personal situation if the Lord directs. There are many examples of scripture in it, including Paul describing prophesying when an unbeliever or uninstructed attends a church gathering and the 'secrets of his heart are made manifest' through it. I see scripture as normative for the church, rather than church practice, tradition, or a modern sense of propriety. I would also say it would be wrong for a Christian woman to divorce her husband because he was infertile and marry another.

I did not live your experiences, so I don't know about the mental health and gross immorality issues you experienced. I cannot say that I have known a lot of people I went to church with to have had mental health issues. I am sure there have been some. A lot of Pentecostal churches were historically found among working class people. The same is true of certain Baptist denominations, too. There are also urban churches that have outreach to the homeless. Some Pentecostal churches reach out to the down-and-outs and don't aspire to only attract the wealthy or educated. If a church were made up of all elite and educated people in a community where not everyone is that way, I might be uncomfortable in that environment when I compared it to the types of followers Jesus attracted and the makeup of the early church. Jesus said that God had not 'revealed it unto the wise and prudent, but hast revealed it unto babes.' Paul pointed out that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble had been called. The church in Jerusalem had a lot of widows and poor saints. A friend of mine was telling me how his Assemblies of God church had a lot of mentally retarded people there that they had reached out too.

Grossly immoral? My experience growing up is that there were people who would testify of being redeemed from grossly immoral backgrounds, and an emphasis on holy living. Now, I see a lot of seeker sensitive churches and a lot of 'lighter' preaching by a lot of evangelicals in general, and some Pentecostals and Charismatics have gone in that direction. Usually, though, it doesn't seem like these churches exercise certain spiritual gifts in their meetings either. People can get lost in the crowd no matter how they live in a lot of these churches.

The issue, though, is what does the Bible teach. Is your set of personal experiences an excuse for not believing scripture on this issue? If scripture teaches that the Spirit gives the I Corinthians 12 gifts, 'as He wills', does your set of personal experiences justify you in saying that passage is not true, or to declare what the Spirit may or may not will? Wouldn't it be wise to respect God's sovereignty on this issue and be open to the idea that the Spirit still has the right to do this?