Refuting The Cessationism Doctrine: Spiritual Gifts, Tongues, Miracles Haven’t Ceased Since Pentecost!!

Dave-L · Apr 1, 2020

But he did not heal any he left behind sick. He put Timothy on medicine.... What Galatian miracles are you referring to?

wolfwint · Apr 1, 2020

CS1 said:

Yes, and this stopped, when they died. They did not determind 12 another apostles with the same gifts and authority as they had from Jesus. And you cant find this in the following churchhistory. What you can find is that God gave healings and miracles through christians/missionarys which spread the gospel to the gentiles according to the will of God.
What you cant find is that what we find since 1901 in the pentecostal and later in the charismatic movements.

Why you think christians are not agree with the above mentioned movements? Do you think because we dont like these gifts?
I believe that the Holy Spirit gives every believer a spiritual gift, acording his will.
Why do you think is speaking in tongues not mentioned as gift in Pauls letter to the romans, but contains the most teachings in a letter? Paul caĺled in 1. Cor. as a gift like others and compared the different gifts with a human body. They works together, but they are different. A foot has a different function and purpose then an nose. To stay inthis picture. Since the pentecostal movement is coming up you claim that every christian has to speak in tongues if he is baptised with the Holy Spirit. So every christian then has to be the nose ( f.e.) and has then added nother pupose, f.e. the gift of comforting. So a christian is a nose ( speaking in tongues) and an eye ( gift of comforting) orean nose and a leg, ore a nose and a finger. This teaching I cant nowhere taught in the NT to believers.
In many cults and religions speaking in tongues is normal. How you can recognize a different if you even dont know what you are speaking in tongues?
Thats the reason I deny that this is from God.

wolfwint · Apr 1, 2020

wolfwint said:

Yes, and this stopped, when they died. They did not determind 12 another apostles with the same gifts and authority as they had from Jesus. And you cant find this in the following churchhistory. What you can find is that God gave healings and miracles through christians/missionarys which spread the gospel to the gentiles according to the will of God.
What you cant find is that what we find since 1901 in the pentecostal and later in the charismatic movements.

Why you think christians are not agree with the above mentioned movements? Do you think because we dont like these gifts?
I believe that the Holy Spirit gives every believer a spiritual gift, acording his will.
Why do you think is speaking in tongues not mentioned as gift in Pauls letter to the romans, but contains the most teachings in a letter? Paul caĺled in 1. Cor. as a gift like others and compared the different gifts with a human body. They works together, but they are different. A foot has a different function and purpose then an nose. To stay inthis picture. Since the pentecostal movement is coming up you claim that every christian has to speak in tongues if he is baptised with the Holy Spirit. So every christian then has to be the nose ( f.e.) and has then added nother pupose, f.e. the gift of comforting. So a christian is a nose ( speaking in tongues) and an eye ( gift of comforting) orean nose and a leg, ore a nose and a finger. This teaching I cant nowhere taught in the NT to believers.
In many cults and religions speaking in tongues is normal. How you can recognize a different if you even dont know what you are speaking in tongues?
Thats the reason I deny that this is from God.

Sorry for my bad english,i missed some words, but hope you will understand what I wrote.

presidente · Apr 1, 2020

Dave-L said:

Sod doyou think they could just drink milk shakes and eat french fries all the time back then since they had the apostles with them?

He healed a sick man in Lystra or Derbe at the beginning of Acts 14. I believe he said he did great miracles in Ephesus, after getting sick in Galatia.

If Paul's having an infirmity caused him to go to Galatia for the first time, whether you hold to the north or south Galatian theory, the latest was Acts 16 for his first visit there since Galatia is clearly named. South Galatian theory has better support and the epistle was likely written to the churches started in Acts 14.

UnitedWithChrist · Apr 1, 2020

presidente said:

Here's what it all comes down to...

I have not met a single credible Word of Faith, charismatic, or Pentecostal person.

Eventually they show their lunacy.

Give you an example...the last one I met was my jail chaplain. He claimed God talked to him AUDIBLY. He also claimed that men in the jail were slaves to demons that have traveled through their family history, causing them to sin. And, he claimed that homosexuals could not repent and come to Christ.

Of course, that gave the chaplain the opportunity to hang his shingle out and promote himself as some mighty man of power.

By the way, he also convinced one prisoner that he would become a great preacher. This guy believed that a black guy yelling "Hallelujah" through the jail continually caused him to be saved. Anyways, I kept up with the guy a little and his behavior definitely was not indicative of a saved man. He is in prison now for 10 years.

Other charismatics, Pentecostals and Word of Faith people I have met ultimately show the same sorts of behavior, and almost all of them are, basically, simpletons.

So, while I believe 100% of Scripture, I don't believe the charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith interpretation of it.

And, whether you admit it or not, you basically hold the view that if someone is not healed upon prayer, it is their OWN FAULT. That's the logical conclusion of those who claim healing on demand is a guarantee.

presidente · Apr 1, 2020

UnitedWithChrist said:

I don't like being equated with the slashes, btw. I don't follow Copeland. I can't really stand to watch him for any length of time.

But you called certain gifts trivial. Isn't calling some gifts 'trivial' contrary to Paul's teaching? Just imagine you said that some gifts were trivial to Paul in the first century. What do you think he would say?

I Corinthians 12

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no [h]schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
(NKJV)

UnitedWithChrist · Apr 1, 2020

presidente said:

1 Cor 14: 1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

Again, I assert that languages (I don't use imprecise language like "tongues"), whatever they are, are not on an equal level in terms of importance with other gifts. And, I also don't believe that the charismatic worldview has a correct understanding on this gift. It doesn't matter if it's in effect or not.

By the way, the other odd thing I notice is that charismatics coach others on speaking tongues, as if it is a learned behavior. Ever think about that? Because I think a spiritual gift is not a learned behavior. So, if someone teaches someone how to blabber in tongues, I don't think it's a spiritual gift. It's one deceived person teaching another.

presidente · Apr 1, 2020

UnitedWithChrist said:

God speaking to someone audibly is a Biblical phenomenon, so I hope you wouldn't discount someone based on that. For point 2, if it was that was all he said, that sounds pretty cooky. God unable to redeem homosexuals? That's unbiblical.

But, honestly, I don't want to say anything bad about the guy or his beliefs since i am getting this second hand, and I've seen in your posts that you don't make fine distinctions and lump things together too much in your mind for me to be comfortable with your interpretation of someone's statements you are relating second-hand. You seem to have a lot of unbiblical thinking, too. I quoted a verse from John, and that was evidence to you that Charismatics were loony. You also lump all Pentecostals in with WOFers, even though Pentecostals disagree with WOF theology. Of course, you have problems with points of doctrine that both groups hold in common. I'm sure you hold some basic beliefs in common with Pentecostals and even WOFers. You wrote that you believed in the resurrection, for example.

Don't let your attitudes towards these groups bias you. The scripture says that the Spirit gives gifts, including the working of miracles, gifts of healing, prophecy, tongues, interpretation, etc. as He wills. The same chapter (I Corinthians 12:28) indicates that there are non-apostle, non-prophet people gifted to heal and some gifted to work miracles. Can you show me scripture that gives you the right to declare that the Spirit does not or will not gifts people the way the scripture teaches he does? Is your cessationism based on scripture or based on not liking preachers you see on TV and some individuals you have met?

Again, the inability to make, or retain, fine distinctions. I believe faith is a factor in healing. There may be cases where someone is healed because he doesn't ask, because he asks and doesn't believe, or because of sin. You seemed unaware of scriptures that say things like 'according to your faith be it unto you' and the many other scriptures that tie healing to faith. I showed numerous scriptures, but only some of them. Do you find fault with these scriptures? How does what I said not align with them? I don't say sickness is definitely because of sin. Of a blind man, Jesus said neither this man sinned nor his parents, that he should be born blind. But to another individual he said go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon thee. There were many sick and many who fell asleep among the Corinthians because of sin. James also mentions sin in the passage about elders anointing with oil, "if they have committed sin, they shall be forgiven him.'

But there may be people who are not healed because they do not ask God in faith. There may be people not healed because the elders who anoint them do not believe God when they pray. Read James and tell me how you could think that would be contrary to what he wrote.

Jesus said, "...all things are possible to him that believes..."

If someone does not ask in prayer in faith for something they need or that would benefit them, I would not necessarily say that person is in sin, either. You are making assumptions that I do not.

JohnR7 · Apr 1, 2020

SpiritDove05 said:

The Bible is very clear that the anointing at the end of the age is going to be greater than in the beginning. The church for almost 2,000 years tried to get back what the early church had. Now as if we were shot out of a cannon we have passed the early church. This is the final harvest. Pentecost this year will be a time of anointing greater then the early church had in the beginning. "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts" (Haggai 2:9) "That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil." (Deut 11:14) "Though your beginnings were modest, your latter days will be full of prosperity." (Job 8:7)

The church age is coming to an end and the kingdom age is beginning.

presidente · Apr 1, 2020

UnitedWithChrist said:

Paul wrote the one who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets. With interpretation it is edifying to the body.

I agree some have over-exaggerated the importance of speaking in tongues.

I am not sure what you've seen. But I know some Pentecostals would teach against coaching people to speak in tongues. I've seen someone try to coach someone on how to yield to it. I haven't seen Charismatics say, "bla bla bla' or whatever and try to get someone to utter something. I'm sure many Charismatics would be against the idea of trying to get someone to 'speak in tongues' by telling them to repeat certain syllables.

I also wouldn't assert that everything that claims to be speaking in tongues necessarily is, either. I believe in the Bible, but men are capable of all kinds of things.

cv5 · Apr 1, 2020

presidente said:

If you would do a little research, there are quite a bit of references to this sort of thing. I am no expert in that area, but I'll share a few things from my recollections of what I have studied.

Btw, what is your quote for that? But if he said, "Thus saith the Lord" before it, it sounds a little less nutty, I suppose. Moses said, "I am the LORD thy God...." quoting the Lord God. I wonder if the assertion that Montanus called himself the Paraklete was misinterpreted, if he'd say "The Paraklete says' imitating, along the lines of Agabus saying, "Thus saith the Holy Ghost." The 'Montanist' 'revival' in the west was accepted for a time. In the east, they may have continued to remain a part of the larger chruch, but not in the east. They say Montanus set up rival bishops, which may be the reason the movement was considered a schism in the east early on. Most of what was written about Montanus was written by his critics. Tertullian became a Montanist at some point, and some of his works survive. One of the beliefs Tertullian defended was forbidding widows and widowers to marry. I don't look at Montanism as something orthodox. But the church actually accepted the gift of prophecy

As a teen, I read the first half of Eusebius 'Ecclesiastical History'. In it, he deals with the Montanist controversy and numerous other topics. His fourth century work compiles a number of quotes and traditions from the centuries prior. Regarding Montanism, he records a number of quotes form his contemporaries affirming the gift of prophecy, but rejecting Montanus. After Montanus, Priscilla, and Maximilla died, there was a debate between a Christian and a Montanist. The Montanist argued that prophecy had ceased with them. But the Christian said that prophecy remained in the church, because the apostle said prophecy would continue until the Lord returned. This could have been a debate alluding to I Corinthians 13. Montanists may have been the first cessationists. They may have thought that Montanus or his teachings were 'that which is perfect.' The church did not interpret the passage that way, and I Corinthians 1:7 says, 'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.'

Eusebius also contains some of Ireneaus' writings. Ireneaus, who, probably when he was quite young, knew Polycarp, was a missionary to Gaul in what is now France, and a church leader there. He wrote that he believed all churches should be able to raise the dead as his had through fasting and prayer. But he also wrote of brethren who had various gifts such as prophecy, tongues, foreknowledge, healing, etc. Ireneaus wrote a work entitled 'Against Heresies' in which he exposed many of the beliefs of various cults, many of which we would classify as 'Gnostic' today. In another work, he wrote about how rejecting prophecy was a characteristic of heresies. He lived and wrote around 200 AD, as did Tertullian.

Tertullian wrote an apology that made a similar point to Justin Martyrs' in the early 2nd century, that Christians cast demons out of people, even though the pagans recognized the spirits in these people as their gods. Jesus called casting out demons a miracle. Justin Martyr also wrote in his dialogue with Trypho, a Jew who struck up a conversation with him because he was dressed as a philospher, that his people had had prophets, but now the prophets were among the church (my wording, btw.)

The Shepherd of Hermas describes prophesying in the church in the 2nd century. No matter what you think of the work, it was read in some churches in the second century and shows that prophesying was still done during that time.

I have read (or read parts of) some books that tell a bit about spiritual gifts during the Ante-Nicene time period. I only had a chance to quickly read through parts of Burgess' _The Spirit and the Church: Antiquity_ at a friend's house back in the 1980's. He collects a lot of quotes from the so-called 'church father;s' (though One is your Father which is in heaven) writings and comments on them in his book. There are two other volumes that I have not seen, presumably about later stages of church history. I recall his writing that Athanasius had a reputation as a prophet and received a prophecy that settled an issue that he might have otherwise just decreed on as a bishop. _Evangelism in the Early Church_ by Michael Greene also deals with the role of supernatural gifts in evangelism in the first centuries of Christianity.

There are also a number of bloggers who have compiled quotes. It is easy to find lists of quotes affirming the use of spiritual gifts either doctrinally or affirming experience with them from the first centuries of Christianity.

I have also read about various historical figures who were influential in spreading the message of Christ around the world. Gregory was influential in evangelizing Armenia. He was also Ante-Nicene. The Armenian king converted before the Roman Empire legalized Christianity. Gregory was said to have evangelized the nation after being imprisoned (Gregory's father had allegedly been involved in the plot to kill the king's father.) The king's sister released him after the king was demonized and then Gregory cast out the demon. Jesus called casting out a demon in his name a miracle.

Many healings and miracles are attributed to St. Martin of Tours. His life was recorded by someone who knew him personally, not a hagiophrapher decades or centuries later. Many miracles are also attributed to St. Patrick, numerous healings and resurrections from the dead. The two works of his that historians recognize as legitimate tell some supernatural experiences, seeing a vision that led him to free Ireland, where he worked as a slave after being captured, and a supernatural voice telling him to return. He'd become a presbyter after he'd returned. His writings do not fit with cessationism. Historically, there are numerous accounts of visions, prophecies and healings. Francis of Assisi is said to have healed people, for example. I don't recall reading that the monk said he was prophesying, but it is said a monk told his mother that her three sons would be.... I forget the titles. I think it was one would be a duke, another a count, and the other would be a king. Since Baldwin I was crowned king of the Latin kingdom of Jerusalem, he ended up being a king. (A presumptuous title that his brother refused, but my geneaological research indicates he's an ancestor, so perhaps I should repent on his behalf.)

The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox and other national churches have not been cessationist historically. Cessationism evolved in Protestantism over time. It is not based on scripture. There are those who try to squeeze some kind of argument out of I Corinthians 13 that does not fit the context. Others argue for it based on a set of anachronistic propositions about the role of scripture that cannot be supported by the scriptures themselves. I could not see any Biblical basis for your line of reasoning for cessationism in our discussion thus far. Are there scriptures that support your theory?

Nice post. That is why I am NOT a cessationist. Only God has the record of these matters pertaining to genuine signs and miracles.

SpiritDove05 · Apr 1, 2020

JohnR7 said:

The Bible is very clear that the anointing at the end of the age is going to be greater than in the beginning. The church for almost 2,000 years tried to get back what the early church had. Now as if we were shot out of a cannon we have passed the early church. This is the final harvest. Pentecost this year will be a time of anointing greater then the early church had in the beginning. "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts" (Haggai 2:9) "That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil." (Deut 11:14) "Though your beginnings were modest, your latter days will be full of prosperity." (Job 8:7)

The church age is coming to an end and the kingdom age is beginning.

John 14:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

cv5 · Apr 1, 2020

presidente said:

I don't like being equated with the slashes, btw. I don't follow Copeland. I can't really stand to watch him for any length of time.

But you called certain gifts trivial. Isn't calling some gifts 'trivial' contrary to Paul's teaching? Just imagine you said that some gifts were trivial to Paul in the first century. What do you think he would say?

I Corinthians 12

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no [h]schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
(NKJV)

Kenneth Copeland is quite insane. A criminal mind. Damned too. Anybody paying heed to that nutter is in dire straights.

Blade · Apr 1, 2020

cv5 said:

I like this verse " Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them."

Praise God glory to Jesus we don't get to say who enters the kingdom huh

I have over 59 years listen to him off and on. I just don't agree with some things they teach. We had a fire here few years ago. Had to leave our homes. Well we get this phone call "Copeland ministries" They said "What do you need? What ever it is ask we will get it to you. Ask anything". What got us was ...how did they get our number? NO ONE from ANY other ministrey call us or those around us from what we know. I then searched seems they do this for storms, earthquakes you name it. Seems they take truck loads of things to these people...anyone in need.

So.. not my kid were talking about..

7seasrekeyed · Apr 1, 2020

Blade said:

hmmm...had no idea they actually do that

that, is a good thing

but the WOF stuff? sorry...not so much

not to argue with you at all, I'm not a cessationist, but when Copeland states the virus is over and obviously it is not, how do you handle that?

again, not trying to argue, but how can folks just ignore that?

mind you, I do see that you do not agree with some of what they teach

cv5 · Apr 1, 2020

Blade said:

I like this verse " Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them."

Praise God glory to Jesus we don't get to say who enters the kingdom huh

I have over 59 years listen to him off and on. I just don't agree with some things they teach. We had a fire here few years ago. Had to leave our homes. Well we get this phone call "Copeland ministries" They said "What do you need? What ever it is ask we will get it to you. Ask anything". What got us was ...how did they get our number? NO ONE from ANY other ministrey call us or those around us from what we know. I then searched seems they do this for storms, earthquakes you name it. Seems they take truck loads of things to these people...anyone in need.

So.. not my kid were talking about..

I can tell you this for certain.....he is preaching "another gospel". The prosperity type.

Guojing · Apr 1, 2020

presidente said:

Signs and wonders are always given for a specific purpose. Paul, after he was saved and commissioned to reach the Gentiles with the Gospel of Grace, was given signs and wonders in order for the apostles, as well as the other Jewish believers, to know that he was indeed sent by God and his new gospel of the uncircumcision is a valid one.

If you recall Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council, what was one important reason how the Jewish believers were convinced by Paul and Baranabas? Vs 12 clearly states

All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

Notice that, unlike for us today, they cannot be convinced anyone telling them to "accept Paul by faith". If you are unable to produce signs, the Jews are not going to believe you. It was true from Moses in Exodus 4.

garee · Apr 1, 2020

UnitedWithChrist said:

Yes the promise of Joel to all the nations of the world . Tongue has its foundation in the Old testament. It is language or prophecy . Simply another manner of bringing the word of God other that Hebrew alone.

God has assigned a sign and wonder to them that refuse to hear the word of that speaks against them . They make a noise and fall backward in order to mock God. A picture of God mocking mankind

Who told them to make a sound and fall backward as a way of identification? What does it indicate?

CS1 · Apr 1, 2020

7seasrekeyed said:

I think we handle it as the word of God says he is false and in error pray for him and leave him alone unless you are led to confront him.

presidente · Apr 1, 2020

Guojing said:

Are you saying that this was THE purpose for signs? Miracles and healing are also given to the body 'to profit withal' and they had an impact on those hearing the gospel who also saw the signs. Some Gentiles also believed after they saw the signs. Healing also benefited those who were healed, sometimes their families and other people (e.g. a man with a family who needed to support his family, Peter's mother-in-law being able to serve Jesus and his disciples.)

Refuting The Cessationism Doctrine: Spiritual Gifts, Tongues, Miracles Haven’t Ceased Since Pentecost!!

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