Is it a sin to drink alcohol
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Wine is wine. The fruit of the vine isn't fermented.
When you find where it is written that it was spoken by the prophets that he would be called a Nazarene then you will find the answer you are looking for.
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Matt 2:23
KJV
When you find where it is written that it was spoken by the prophets that he would be called a Nazarene then you will find the answer you are looking for.
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Matt 2:23
KJV
I see you just like to make up your own definition and distinctions and expect people to agree with you, whether it makes sense or not. In case you don't know, they had wine made out of grapes. What turned into wine was grape juice--in the process of fermentation-- before it became wine. To be considered kosher for Passover the yeast had to be removed. Wine therefore had to be completely fermented so the dead yeast could be scraped off the top.
Great verse, but I am wondering why you bring up this topic.
Nazarites had a vow of not drinking wine or eating raisins. Nazarenes, either people from Nazareth or the Branch or followers of the Branch did not. Nazarites could not drink grape juice.
Great verse, but I am wondering why you bring up this topic.
Nazarites had a vow of not drinking wine or eating raisins. Nazarenes, either people from Nazareth or the Branch or followers of the Branch did not. Nazarites could not drink grape juice.
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Is there any good reason to think wine is a forbidden substance besides the fact that you want to think your church tradition and what you heard in sermons is right? Sure, people can assert things about history to try to make it fit their preconceived ideas, or try to redefine 'fruit of the vine' to exclude some forms of the fruit of the vine. But really, it's grasping at straws to preserve tradition that doesn't line up with scripture.
Look up in John 2 where it says 'when the men have well drunk.' When the men were drunk, they usually brought out the cheap wine. Look it up in Greek.
Why didn't Paul rebuke the Corinthians for drinking real wine if any consumption of it were a sin? Why the warning about 'excess of wine' in I Peter 4:3 if use of a little of it were a sin? Why should deacons not be given to much wine in I Timothy 3:8 if consuming any wine at all were sinful?
Clearly, excessive drinking of wine is forbidden and warned against in scripture. Only specific individuals were not to drink wine. Nazarites took a vow not to partake, but for most of them that was for a limited period of time before they turned in their hair in the tabernacle or temple. One could be a Nazarite from birth, but they were not to drink fresh squeezed grape juice or to eat raisins either.
Look up in John 2 where it says 'when the men have well drunk.' When the men were drunk, they usually brought out the cheap wine. Look it up in Greek.
Why didn't Paul rebuke the Corinthians for drinking real wine if any consumption of it were a sin? Why the warning about 'excess of wine' in I Peter 4:3 if use of a little of it were a sin? Why should deacons not be given to much wine in I Timothy 3:8 if consuming any wine at all were sinful?
Clearly, excessive drinking of wine is forbidden and warned against in scripture. Only specific individuals were not to drink wine. Nazarites took a vow not to partake, but for most of them that was for a limited period of time before they turned in their hair in the tabernacle or temple. One could be a Nazarite from birth, but they were not to drink fresh squeezed grape juice or to eat raisins either.
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That comes off as rather passive-aggressive.
Do you have any reason to believe what you believe? What is your evidence that wine is not the fruit of the vine?
Do you have any reason to believe that wine is not the fruit of the vine? What is it made out of?
Jesus said He would not drink of them of this fruit of the vine until 'I drink it anew with you in My Father's kingdom'. When he tasted vinegar on the cross, He refused to drink it.
Vinegar is the fruit of the vine. Why wouldn't wine be?
Why would Jesus drink yeasty juice at Passover instead of kosher wine?
Do you have any reason to believe what you believe? What is your evidence that wine is not the fruit of the vine?
Do you have any reason to believe that wine is not the fruit of the vine? What is it made out of?
Jesus said He would not drink of them of this fruit of the vine until 'I drink it anew with you in My Father's kingdom'. When he tasted vinegar on the cross, He refused to drink it.
Vinegar is the fruit of the vine. Why wouldn't wine be?
Why would Jesus drink yeasty juice at Passover instead of kosher wine?
I suppose it depended on where you live. I hear they used to throw the waste from buckets (think chamber pot style waste) in the streets in Rome. But I have also seen excavations of Greek or Roman toilets over rivers. If there were toilets over the tiber, Rome could have had some rather unhealthy water, but they did pipe water in from distant springs, probably polluted slightly from the lead used in the construction of the top of the aqueduct. But what about cities of 20 or 50k people that did not have aqueducts, or some village downstream from another village that did not bury its waste. Digging a well was a big deal. We even read about the patriarchs digging wells. It must have been a really big deal for them.
I don't remember the site, but I have read online that wine mixed with water can kill germs after about 24 hours. There might be something to the idea that alcohol served the purpose of purifying wine. It seems more likely to me that that was what they wanted to drink. A little wine in the water probably tasted better than just water to them. It gave them something to drink with meals. It also served as a way for poor farmers to preserve calories produced by the grapes. We might take calories for granted, but that was probably important for their health.
I read a theory that Europeans in the middle ages may have come to drink beer and wine because water tended to be dirty. The article argued that they may have drunk large amounts since childhood, making them a bit sluggish. But when coffee came from Africa, it stimulated their brains. It was also safe to drink because they boiled it. If they didn't realize boiling was the key, they probably weren't getting sick off of it. Instead of beer, they were drinking a mild stimulant, which stimulated their thinking about art, politics, science, etc. That was just a theoretical explanation.
As Christians we should not drink wine or beer to excess. I was raised hearing preaching against alcohol. I don't 'drink socially' or drink for pleasure. We have some wine in the house used for cooking. Heat causes alcohol to evaporate. I have had a little bit of an alcoholic beverage when I ate something strange, for example taking a couple of bites of a chicken sandwich at KFC in Jakarta and seeing it was raw. I drank part of a Bintang after that, hoping it might kill something. I'll take wine in communion.
But I also realize it was wrong of me to look at someone drinking one beer with dinner and think they were sinning. Drinking alcohol 'became a sin' over the years in certain types of churches. Methodist preaching against distilled liquors turned into preaching against beer and wine. And there was a big hubbub over some churches moving to grape juice after Baptist deacon Welch's invented a new method for preserving fresh unfermented grape juice in the early 1900s.
I don't remember the site, but I have read online that wine mixed with water can kill germs after about 24 hours. There might be something to the idea that alcohol served the purpose of purifying wine. It seems more likely to me that that was what they wanted to drink. A little wine in the water probably tasted better than just water to them. It gave them something to drink with meals. It also served as a way for poor farmers to preserve calories produced by the grapes. We might take calories for granted, but that was probably important for their health.
I read a theory that Europeans in the middle ages may have come to drink beer and wine because water tended to be dirty. The article argued that they may have drunk large amounts since childhood, making them a bit sluggish. But when coffee came from Africa, it stimulated their brains. It was also safe to drink because they boiled it. If they didn't realize boiling was the key, they probably weren't getting sick off of it. Instead of beer, they were drinking a mild stimulant, which stimulated their thinking about art, politics, science, etc. That was just a theoretical explanation.
As Christians we should not drink wine or beer to excess. I was raised hearing preaching against alcohol. I don't 'drink socially' or drink for pleasure. We have some wine in the house used for cooking. Heat causes alcohol to evaporate. I have had a little bit of an alcoholic beverage when I ate something strange, for example taking a couple of bites of a chicken sandwich at KFC in Jakarta and seeing it was raw. I drank part of a Bintang after that, hoping it might kill something. I'll take wine in communion.
But I also realize it was wrong of me to look at someone drinking one beer with dinner and think they were sinning. Drinking alcohol 'became a sin' over the years in certain types of churches. Methodist preaching against distilled liquors turned into preaching against beer and wine. And there was a big hubbub over some churches moving to grape juice after Baptist deacon Welch's invented a new method for preserving fresh unfermented grape juice in the early 1900s.
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Vinegar comes from wine, the wine comes from the fermented fruit. The fruit from the vine is not fermented. It has to ferment before it becomes wine.
You might review the scriptures before you make your prophesy of scripture because you would find that the scriptures reprove what you claim.
They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. Matt 27:34
And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. .Matt 27:48
29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
John 19:29-30
W
You might review the scriptures before you make your prophesy of scripture because you would find that the scriptures reprove what you claim.
They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. Matt 27:34
And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. .Matt 27:48
29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
John 19:29-30
W
it is as you say, none of us are 'as smart as we think'
therefore it was not at all ignorant, but in fact a very knowledgeable and wise thing to say -- and you are in error to rebuke me over it, clearly so, since you contradict your supposed rebuke with your own explanation.
but the saying is proven true: rebuke a scoffer, and get cursed for it; rebuke a wise man, and he will love you for it.
therefore it was not at all ignorant, but in fact a very knowledgeable and wise thing to say -- and you are in error to rebuke me over it, clearly so, since you contradict your supposed rebuke with your own explanation.
but the saying is proven true: rebuke a scoffer, and get cursed for it; rebuke a wise man, and he will love you for it.
Good point. My memory of Matthew is fuzzy. So the question is whether 'the fruit of the vine' in the passage about the Lord's Supper exclusively refers to grape juice with yeast floating in it, or whether it can refer to fully fermented wine which was kosher for Passover.
Do you have any evidence for your position?
Calling that 'prophesy', aside from the usage error, doesn't make much sense, btw.
Do you have any evidence for your position?
Calling that 'prophesy', aside from the usage error, doesn't make much sense, btw.