The Holy Spirit in Acts according to Acts

[Grandpa]

The fundamental belief that the Holy Spirit is the one who regenerates the lost soul is critical to a proper soteriology.

Amen.

To assert that the Holy Spirit baptizes at a point after salvation is wrong in the extreme.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It depends on your understanding of the word "baptize". If you view it as a one time dunk or laying on of hands then I would agree that a baptism like that after salvation is probably not correct. It, at least, doesn't seem to follow the way God worked in the Hebrews when He Saved them out of Egypt...

But, if you look at baptize as immersion, such as being immersed in the word of God, or being immersed in the Holiness of God, I think you can see that we are drawn deeper and deeper into all the things of God after our realization of Salvation. And so the Holy Spirit absolutely does continue to baptize the saved believer all throughout their walk with the Lord.

And there absolutely is that one BIG TIME (at least one) that God shows His Power to the believer after Salvation so that the believer ABSOLUTELY knows it is God who Sanctifies him/her.


You were probably just talking about the Pentecostal/Charismatic laying on of hands as the second Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This point is a little tricky. It takes faith in the Lord to ask Him for His Gifts. If the laying on of hands contributed to that faith that caused the believer to ask the Lord for His continued Blessing then it is not really for us to take away from this instrument that God uses.

Just like water baptism. Maybe it doesn't do anything but get a person wet. But maybe, for some, it gives them that extra bit of faith that causes them to come to the Lord and receive Rest.

And on the other hand some people might think they are saved by what these men have done. Baptising in water and laying on of hands. Maybe they go about doing whatever they want because they think they are saved because that is what they are told. And they never come to the Lord Jesus to receive Rest and Blessing.

That's the part that I think you are fighting against. But its like the servants who wanted to pull up the tares. They were told not to because it would destroy the wheat along with it. The Lord will take care of who are His.

 

[miknik5]

Amen.


It depends on your understanding of the word "baptize". If you view it as a one time dunk or laying on of hands then I would agree that a baptism like that after salvation is probably not correct. It, at least, doesn't seem to follow the way God worked in the Hebrews when He Saved them out of Egypt...

But, if you look at baptize as immersion, such as being immersed in the word of God, or being immersed in the Holiness of God, I think you can see that we are drawn deeper and deeper into all the things of God after our realization of Salvation. And so the Holy Spirit absolutely does continue to baptize the saved believer all throughout their walk with the Lord.

And there absolutely is that one BIG TIME (at least one) that God shows His Power to the believer after Salvation so that the believer ABSOLUTELY knows it is God who Sanctifies him/her.


You were probably just talking about the Pentecostal/Charismatic laying on of hands as the second Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This point is a little tricky. It takes faith in the Lord to ask Him for His Gifts. If the laying on of hands contributed to that faith that caused the believer to ask the Lord for His continued Blessing then it is not really for us to take away from this instrument that God uses.

Just like water baptism. Maybe it doesn't do anything but get a person wet. But maybe, for some, it gives them that extra bit of faith that causes them to come to the Lord and receive Rest.

And on the other hand some people might think they are saved by what these men have done. Baptising in water and laying on of hands. Maybe they go about doing whatever they want because they think they are saved because that is what they are told. And they never come to the Lord Jesus to receive Rest and Blessing.

That's the part that I think you are fighting against. But its like the servants who wanted to pull up the tares. They were told not to because it would destroy the wheat along with it. The Lord will take care of who are His.

Don´t you mean the Holy Spirit continues to fill the believer. You are only baptized once into Christ Jesus...

 

[presidente]

I think you need to re review 1 Corinthians 14. They certainly WERE calling out. This is a complete letter to the Church and was written to that Church because of their ungodly conduct within the assembly...

You need to read, or keep in mind the WHOLE letter.

Just quote verses that you think refer to this. By 'calling out' I think you mean prophesying at the same time.

Paul's instructions could have been a summary if orderly use of tongues and prophecy as opposed to each phrase identifying a particular problem. It seems likely they needed to interpret tongues. But again quote verses that correct 'calling out'.

 

[miknik5]

Just quote verses that you think refer to this. By 'calling out' I think you mean prophesying at the same time.

Paul's instructions could have been a summary if orderly use of tongues and prophecy as opposed to each phrase identifying a particular problem. It seems likely they needed to interpret tongues. But again quote verses that correct 'calling out'.

No Just read the Word of Truth. I highlighted where it was said there was jealousy and dissension and you implied it was my opinion. Now I give you 1 Corinthians 14 and you want me to do for you what you should just do for yourself. If you feel it necessary, copy the whole chapter and I will show you where it is written in GOD´S WORD that there indeed was disorder and calling out.

 

[miknik5]

Presidente...You are stuck on one chapter and I don´t know if your intent is dishonest when you asked me where it is said they were not taking turns. I am not sure HOW it is even possible that you don´t already know that they were indeed NOT taking turns.

if you have read all of I Corinthians that should have been clearly understood.
You point me within the one chapter to verse 31, but I point you to ! corinthians 14 and you can´t even read it?

How is it possible, when it is clearly written for you and anyone else who might be interested that the issue was that they were NOT taking turns and were indeed calling out...within the Church assembly...

And that was disorderly worship...in fellowship for the believers, as well as viewed by outsiders (unbelievers) looking in

Something Paul was very aware of as an obstacle to any unbeliever...Paulś heart (and he KNEW his service to CHRIST) was to bring all who might hear and believe to faith in CHRIST...

By the way,...that ALONE is our only work too...witnesses of CHRIST...leading men to HIM... pointing to HIM...preaching the GOSPEL so that those who have the eyes to see and ears to hear will receive the message as it should be received...

From GOD.
HE will open the eyes and ears to those who HE calls...

 

[miknik5]

Just quote verses that you think refer to this. By 'calling out' I think you mean prophesying at the same time.

Paul's instructions could have been a summary if orderly use of tongues and prophecy as opposed to each phrase identifying a particular problem. It seems likely they needed to interpret tongues. But again quote verses that correct 'calling out'.

No Do your own HW sir...

If I have to post for you, it will be the WHOLE CHAPTER>

Any letter or work should be read in its full entirely...so that there is complete understanding. No one can read snippets of any letter, least of all a letter written specifically to believers, and imply they understand what is being said.

In fact, reading the whole of Corinthians is even better

 

[presidente]

I believe you are misunderstanding what I said, and I don´t know how to clear it up for you. I said they were calling out, (meaning they were not taking turns speaking) If you would reread All of Corinthians, you would see this for yourself.

The parts about division, exalting certain leaders, expelling the man with his father's wife, not suing each other, not being with prostitutes, staying married, respecting conscience, Paul's right to live of the gospel, not eating meat offered to idols, chaos in communion, and the resurrection do not tell us what they were doing that was disorderly in meetings.

We have to look at specific passages on what they were doing in church.

When I said, calling out, I wanted it to be clear, that I was NOT using that term as you implied...as if the were prophesying OVER one another, which was your comment, and implied, to me, that somehow they were prophesying about each other...That, I wanted to make clear, was NOT the case.

I had never heard 'call out' to mean talking over each other, at the same time. I have heard it to refer to confronting someone about something they did wrong. So that wasn't clear when I first read it. But I assume you mean talking about the same time while prophesying and trying to talk louder than each other.

And again I ask for specific verses that you think refer to that, not 'read the whole epistle' because I have and I haven't found it. I wonder if you write that because that was just an idea you had when you read it and you do not know of any specific passages that imply a shouting match. The only verse I can think of that might address this situation is verse 31, but that verse makes sense if they weren't prophesying at the same time, too.

 

[miknik5]

The parts about division, exalting certain leaders, expelling the man with his father's wife, not suing each other, not being with prostitutes, staying married, respecting conscience, Paul's right to live of the gospel, not eating meat offered to idols, chaos in communion, and the resurrection do not tell us what they were doing that was disorderly in meetings.

We have to look at specific passages on what they were doing in church.



I had never heard 'call out' to mean talking over each other, at the same time. I have heard it to refer to confronting someone about something they did wrong. So that wasn't clear when I first read it. But I assume you mean talking about the same time while prophesying and trying to talk louder than each other.

And again I ask for specific verses that you think refer to that, not 'read the whole epistle' because I have and I haven't found it. I wonder if you write that because that was just an idea you had when you read it and you do not know of any specific passages that imply a shouting match. The only verse I can think of that might address this situation is verse 31, but that verse makes sense if they weren't prophesying at the same time, too.

Too bad, sir...calling out, to a teacher, which is what I am (special ed teacher) is something said pretty much every day within the school week...

 

[miknik5]

Iḿ sorry I am not being flexible, sir...I am already upset by some previous posters who were being difficult.

Please don´t ask me to do your HW. If a student was instructed to read something, I would not read it to them, unless I knew they had difficulty reading.

Do you have difficulty reading?

 

[Lafftur]

@presidente - I have enjoyed reading your posts on this thread. You are a blessing to all of us!

 

[presidente]

Presidente...You are stuck on one chapter and I don´t know if your intent is dishonest when you asked me where it is said they were not taking turns. I am not sure HOW it is even possible that you don´t already know that they were indeed NOT taking turns.

if you have read all of I Corinthians that should have been clearly understood.
You point me within the one chapter to verse 31, but I point you to ! corinthians 14 and you can´t even read it?

How is it possible, when it is clearly written for you and anyone else who might be interested that the issue was that they were NOT taking turns and were indeed calling out...within the Church assembly...

Why would you think my intent is dishonest. I did re=red the chapter. But you are the one making the assertion. I wonder if your intent is dishonest. This seems to be a cop-out. I asked you for parts of the book that imply they were talking at the same time while prophesying. Instead of answering, you say to read the book, say you do not know if I am honest, wonder how I could not know such a thing. Just show me why you think that. What in the book leads you to think that.

I wonder if all this has more to do with not wanting to be wrong or not wanting to say you can't remember why you got that impression but cannot think of something specific. This conversation has been quite strange.

Maybe they were speaking at the same time while prophesying. It is possible. But it requires a bit of speculation on our part to arrive at that conclusion. It seems more likely that this was their disorderly practice with tongues.

And that was disorderly worship...in fellowship for the believers, as well as viewed by outsiders (unbelievers) looking in

There is the part about an unbeliever or unlearned/uninstructed coming in, and if all speak with tongues and says 'ye are mad'. But if all prophesy, the secrets of his heart are made manifest and he falls on his face and says God is truly in/among you. I know of nothing that implies they way they prophesied was an obstacle to unbelievers. The one passage that addresses unbelievers witnessing prophecies is positive.

By the way,...that ALONE is our only work too...witnesses of CHRIST...leading men to HIM... pointing to HIM...preaching the GOSPEL so that those who have the eyes to see and ears to hear will receive the message as it should be received...

Evangelism is extremely important. Edifying the saints is important, too. The church meetings Paul describes are actually focused on edifying the saints rather than evangelistic meetings. Paul did that in the synagogues, marketplaces, etc. I have heard the idea that the sole reason we are here is evangelism, but in the Bible I see that the bride being prepared for Christ is important. God has an eternal purpose to teach about his wisdom to principalities and powers through the church, also. That may not be something we have to pay as much attention to as evangelism and edifying other saints, but it is one of God's purposes that is not evangelism per se.

 

[presidente]

Iḿ sorry I am not being flexible, sir...I am already upset by some previous posters who were being difficult.

Please don´t ask me to do your HW. If a student was instructed to read something, I would not read it to them, unless I knew they had difficulty reading.

Do you have difficulty reading?

If this is addressed to me, it comes off as rude. I also wonder if this is about protecting your ego more than a desire to engage with others. You assert I Corinthians says the church was 'calling out' (speaking over each other) while prophesying. I asked you to point out where. You ask me to read the book and the chapter. I have, and I can't find it. I did your HW for you in suggesting 14:31 as something that might remotely alignt to it.

If you don't want to discuss or engage, fine. But there is no reason to be condescending.

 

[miknik5]

Why would you think my intent is dishonest. I did re=red the chapter. But you are the one making the assertion. I wonder if your intent is dishonest. This seems to be a cop-out. I asked you for parts of the book that imply they were talking at the same time while prophesying. Instead of answering, you say to read the book, say you do not know if I am honest, wonder how I could not know such a thing. Just show me why you think that. What in the book leads you to think that.

I wonder if all this has more to do with not wanting to be wrong or not wanting to say you can't remember why you got that impression but cannot think of something specific. This conversation has been quite strange.

Maybe they were speaking at the same time while prophesying. It is possible. But it requires a bit of speculation on our part to arrive at that conclusion. It seems more likely that this was their disorderly practice with tongues.


There is the part about an unbeliever or unlearned/uninstructed coming in, and if all speak with tongues and says 'ye are mad'. But if all prophesy, the secrets of his heart are made manifest and he falls on his face and says God is truly in/among you. I know of nothing that implies they way they prophesied was an obstacle to unbelievers. The one passage that addresses unbelievers witnessing prophecies is positive.



Evangelism is extremely important. Edifying the saints is important, too. The church meetings Paul describes are actually focused on edifying the saints rather than evangelistic meetings. Paul did that in the synagogues, marketplaces, etc. I have heard the idea that the sole reason we are here is evangelism, but in the Bible I see that the bride being prepared for Christ is important. God has an eternal purpose to teach about his wisdom to principalities and powers through the church, also. That may not be something we have to pay as much attention to as evangelism and edifying other saints, but it is one of God's purposes that is not evangelism per se.[/QUOTE]
Please. This has already been accomplished...for those who have been baptized into CHRIST

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

 

[presidente]

No Just read the Word of Truth. I highlighted where it was said there was jealousy and dissension and you implied it was my opinion.

It does not follow, logically, that if a group have jealousy and dissension, that they would necessarily talk at the same time while prophesying in church. Individuals could have had those things in their hearts and actions without prophesying or without speaking over each other or the combination of the two.

Now I give you 1 Corinthians 14 and you want me to do for you what you should just do for yourself. If you feel it necessary, copy the whole chapter and I will show you where it is written in GOD´S WORD that there indeed was disorder and calling out.

I can cut the whole chapter from Biblegateway and you can tell me where you see people prophesying at the same time, if that is what you mean by 'call out.'

I Corinthians 14

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

 

[miknik5]

Not only that sir...the man who began in HIM, is complete in HIM...
And as John clearly states...keep ever before you what you began in...if what you began in remains in you, you too will remain in BOTH THE FATHER and THE SON...and this is what HE promised us...even eternal life.

I am content and have all that is needed and needful in CHRIST JESUS...
THE HIDDEN WISDOM of GOD is made known in CHRIST JESUS.
And HIS CHURCH/BODY...is the MYSTERY made known to the powers and principalities...

Satan has no power over those who are in CHRIST JESUS

 

[presidente]

I had this in mind from Ephesians 3.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This is does through evangelism, and possibly teaching and discipleship. My point in bringing this up is to point that God cares for more than lost human souls. He also wants to teach principalities and powers in heavenly places things through the church. Of course, he cares about the church, too, and the maturing of saints into what they are meant to be after their conversion.

 

[miknik5]

thank you for posting the whole of the Chapter. Now anyone interested in reading the whole chapter can gain understanding of exactly what was going on and the disorderly conduct of believers who were all, without order, calling out...

 

[miknik5]

I had this in mind from Ephesians 3.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 A ccording to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This is does through evangelism, and possibly teaching and discipleship. My point in bringing this up is to point that God cares for more than lost human souls. He also wants to teach principalities and powers in heavenly places things through the church. Of course, he cares about the church, too, and the maturing of saints into what they are meant to be after their conversion.

HE cares for lost souls...period.
Itś why HE sent HIS SON...to wash and cover them with the ONLY GARMENT needed at the wedding.

I point you to Matthew 22


Then we can discuss the OT layout of worship requirements as spoken of in Hebrews and point these shadows of the OT to CHRIST

 

[miknik5]

I don´t know what you are trying to magnify... is it the gifts? Or is it the gift giver

It should be the latter and NOT the former

 

[miknik5]

I am not going to duel with you by spouting out chapters. Stick to the topic. And the only MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC that we should have stuck to is preaching the GOSPEL and pointing all men to THE HEAD