Israel’s Restoration?

[Dave-L]

Many think God’s restoration of Israel happens 7 years after the rapture in a 1000 year long millennium. But this has several difficulties. One is, nobody but the Father knows the time for Israel’s restoration.

“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” (Acts 1:6–7)

The single event which none but the Father knows is also the resurrection of believers on the last day. Believers in Christ are biblical Israel, so the resurrection of believers on the last day is also Israel’s restoration. Into the New Heavens and earth.

The Restoration began at Christ’s first advent. “In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David, and wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old;” Amos 9:11 (NASB95). And speaking of the inclusion of the gentiles Peter says; “‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,’ SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.” Acts 15:16–18 (NASB95)

But the full restoration happens on the last day in the resurrection of believers, i.e. Israel. “So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;” Acts 1:6–7 (NASB95)

A serious flaw in millennial theories is in knowing what only the Father is supposed to know, the time of the end. If the pre-trib rapture and the millennium were true, the end comes 1007 years from the rapture. Or 1000 years from the millennium. This alone proves both theories false. “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.” Revelation 20:5 (KJV 1900)

And the resurrection happens on the last day.

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 (HCSB)

“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)



Acts also places the restoration on the last day.

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19–21)

And making sure this refers to the last day and end of the world, Matthew says;

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:35–36)

So while many look for a physical 1000 yearlong kingdom in this evil world, God’s restoration of Israel speaks of the new heavens and earth on the last day;

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)

 

[Melach]

very nice outlook on it.

 

[bud62]

Many think God’s restoration of Israel happens 7 years after the rapture in a 1000 year long millennium. But this has several difficulties. One is, nobody but the Father knows the time for Israel’s restoration.

“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” (Acts 1:6–7)

The single event which none but the Father knows is also the resurrection of believers on the last day. Believers in Christ are biblical Israel, so the resurrection of believers on the last day is also Israel’s restoration. Into the New Heavens and earth.

The Restoration began at Christ’s first advent. “In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David, and wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old;” Amos 9:11 (NASB95). And speaking of the inclusion of the gentiles Peter says; “‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,’ SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.” Acts 15:16–18 (NASB95)

But the full restoration happens on the last day in the resurrection of believers, i.e. Israel. “So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;” Acts 1:6–7 (NASB95)

A serious flaw in millennial theories is in knowing what only the Father is supposed to know, the time of the end. If the pre-trib rapture and the millennium were true, the end comes 1007 years from the rapture. Or 1000 years from the millennium. This alone proves both theories false. “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.” Revelation 20:5 (KJV 1900)

And the resurrection happens on the last day.

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 (HCSB)

“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)



Acts also places the restoration on the last day.

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19–21)

And making sure this refers to the last day and end of the world, Matthew says;

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:35–36)

So while many look for a physical 1000 yearlong kingdom in this evil world, God’s restoration of Israel speaks of the new heavens and earth on the last day;

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)

The restoration of Israel Doesn't happen till after the 1000 years, And the new Jerusalem comes down, From GOD out of HEAVEN. EZEKIEL 21:27 tells us the crown is taken away till the one that it belongs to COMES, And that is JESUS,

 

[Dave-L]

The restoration of Israel Doesn't happen till after the 1000 years, And the new Jerusalem comes down, From GOD out of HEAVEN. EZEKIEL 21:27 tells us the crown is taken away till the one that it belongs to COMES, And that is JESUS,

Scripture rejects this idea.

 

[presidente]

Many think God’s restoration of Israel happens 7 years after the rapture in a 1000 year long millennium. But this has several difficulties. One is, nobody but the Father knows the time for Israel’s restoration.

You are not presenting a problem for your ideological opponents here since we do not know when the millennium will begin, either. I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, myself, btw.

“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” (Acts 1:6–7)

The single event which none but the Father knows is also the resurrection of believers on the last day. Believers in Christ are biblical Israel, so the resurrection of believers on the last day is also Israel’s restoration. Into the New Heavens and earth.

You are changing your position. In the past, you argued that the apostles did not understand. Clearly, they did not have the same understanding you did. Peter, a few chapters later, exhorts the men of Israel to repent so that God may send Christ and times of refreshing might come from the Lord. He was speaking to unrepentant Jews, not the church. Show me one verse in the New Testament where believing Gentiles are unambiguously called, or included in the use of the term 'Israel'. I can show you examples where this is clearly not the case. Romans 11 is a very clear example to the contrary. Israel, in part, is blinded. The blinded individuals are included in the term 'Israel', while 'Gentiles' is used for another group not included in the term 'Israel.' If scripture interprets scripture, where is the scripture to use to justify your redefinition of Israel?

The Restoration began at Christ’s first advent. “In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David, and wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old;” Amos 9:11 (NASB95). And speaking of the inclusion of the gentiles Peter says; “‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,’ SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.” Acts 15:16–18 (NASB95)

You are going to have to explain how you think this passage supports your view. In the end times, the sukkoth of David, which had been the house of David, would be rebuilt. We see the beginnings of this in Christ's ministry and glorification. Neither James nor Amos refer to Gentiles as Israel. If you look at the whole passage, the issue is whether Gentiles have to be circumcised and commanded to obey the law of Moses. Did they have to become Israeli proselytes, or could they be okay with God as righteous Gentiles? Clearly, they decided against the necessity of Gentile circumcision. Instead, the sent a letter requiring certain things the Old Testament required of Gentiles, similar to what non-Christian Jews would later decide about the Noachide principles. Not fornicating, abstaining from blood, abstaining from idolatry, are all Noachide principles or similar to them. Gentiles have a covenant with God through Noah, and the idea the Jews had was that they could be righteous by doing these things without being circumcised and becoming Jews. The Christians believed Gentiles could be righteous through faith in Jesus Christ without taking on the covenant of circumcision, the ritual that allowed a Gentile to become joined to the natural nation of Israel.

But the full restoration happens on the last day in the resurrection of believers, i.e. Israel. “So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;” Acts 1:6–7 (NASB95)

A serious flaw in millennial theories is in knowing what only the Father is supposed to know, the time of the end. If the pre-trib rapture and the millennium were true, the end comes 1007 years from the rapture.

I don't think you understand millennial theories, since the 1000 years is seen as a time of Israel's restoration. I believe that is a very old theory with some of the writers from the early church period holding to such a view. Justin wrote of this in his dialogue with Trypho for example. Your objection is not a problem with post-trib. But pre-tribbers do not believe they know when the rapture is, so it is not an issue. Jesus did not say no one would ever know the timing. When it happens, those who witness it can know. Your objection is not a substantial one.

Acts also places the restoration on the last day.

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19–21)

Peter wanted Israelites to repent so these things could happen.

So while many look for a physical 1000 yearlong kingdom in this evil world, God’s restoration of Israel speaks of the new heavens and earth on the last day;

As far as your argument goes.... meh.... You seem to be assuming 'day' means a 24 hour period. That seems unlikely.

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)

Clearly some stuff would happen before the elements melt, since some stuff has happened since Peter wrote this in history. Peter's 'telescoping' of the end times, hitting on a few things that will happen does not mean other details predicted in scripture will not happen.

 

[Rondonmon]

You are not presenting a problem for your ideological opponents here since we do not know when the millennium will begin, either. I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, myself, btw.

Well, I do believe in the Pre-tribulation rapture because it's factual. But that's not the point here. We do know exactly when Israel will be restored, 75 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem/Israel at the 1335 Event. People like Dave -L don't see it, I have seen his posts on many sites and I think k I have yet to agree with him on anything, so I am weary about all his info tbh.

Malachi 4:5-6 tells us that Elijah will return BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord {DOTL} to turn Israel back unto God. The DOTL happens at the 1260 Event {Dan. 12:7} So we know Israel repents BEFORE they are Conquered by the Anti-Christ, the 1335 thus is the Blessing of the Two-witnesses and te 1290 is the False Prophet {Jewish High Priest} stopping Jesus Worship {THE SACRIFICE IS STOPPED} and placing the AoD in the Temple of God 30 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Israel to become the Beast. Thus we can heed Zechariah 13:8-9 which states 1/3 will repent and 2/3 will perish, and that happens just before the Anti-Christ takes Jerusalem, see Zechariah 14:1-2............then we see Jesus Destroy the Beast in Zechariah 14:3-4 !!

Why would the Jews Flee Judea if they were not heeding Jesus' Words? And why would they heed Jesus' words if they were not of Jesus? The AoD {1290} happens as a SIGN 30 days before the 1260 event happens. But the 1335 happens before both of those events, its Elijah and the other Witness showing up before the DOTL {1260} to turn Israel back unto God.

Each NUMBER is a set number of days until THESE WONDERS END !! {Second Coming ends these wonders Daniel saw}. In each instance its HOW LONG it takes from said Event 1335 is 1335v days until the Second Coming ends these wonders, the 1290 is 1290 days until the Second Coming ends these wonders and the 1260 is 1260 days until the Second Coming ends these wonders.

So we indeed know exactly when Israel is restored, if we read and heed the Bible, and not MEN.

 

[Dave-L]

You are not presenting a problem for your ideological opponents here since we do not know when the millennium will begin, either. I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, myself, btw.



You are changing your position. In the past, you argued that the apostles did not understand. Clearly, they did not have the same understanding you did. Peter, a few chapters later, exhorts the men of Israel to repent so that God may send Christ and times of refreshing might come from the Lord. He was speaking to unrepentant Jews, not the church. Show me one verse in the New Testament where believing Gentiles are unambiguously called, or included in the use of the term 'Israel'. I can show you examples where this is clearly not the case. Romans 11 is a very clear example to the contrary. Israel, in part, is blinded. The blinded individuals are included in the term 'Israel', while 'Gentiles' is used for another group not included in the term 'Israel.' If scripture interprets scripture, where is the scripture to use to justify your redefinition of Israel?


You are going to have to explain how you think this passage supports your view. In the end times, the sukkoth of David, which had been the house of David, would be rebuilt. We see the beginnings of this in Christ's ministry and glorification. Neither James nor Amos refer to Gentiles as Israel. If you look at the whole passage, the issue is whether Gentiles have to be circumcised and commanded to obey the law of Moses. Did they have to become Israeli proselytes, or could they be okay with God as righteous Gentiles? Clearly, they decided against the necessity of Gentile circumcision. Instead, the sent a letter requiring certain things the Old Testament required of Gentiles, similar to what non-Christian Jews would later decide about the Noachide principles. Not fornicating, abstaining from blood, abstaining from idolatry, are all Noachide principles or similar to them. Gentiles have a covenant with God through Noah, and the idea the Jews had was that they could be righteous by doing these things without being circumcised and becoming Jews. The Christians believed Gentiles could be righteous through faith in Jesus Christ without taking on the covenant of circumcision, the ritual that allowed a Gentile to become joined to the natural nation of Israel.



I don't think you understand millennial theories, since the 1000 years is seen as a time of Israel's restoration. I believe that is a very old theory with some of the writers from the early church period holding to such a view. Justin wrote of this in his dialogue with Trypho for example. Your objection is not a problem with post-trib. But pre-tribbers do not believe they know when the rapture is, so it is not an issue. Jesus did not say no one would ever know the timing. When it happens, those who witness it can know. Your objection is not a substantial one.



Peter wanted Israelites to repent so these things could happen.



As far as your argument goes.... meh.... You seem to be assuming 'day' means a 24 hour period. That seems unlikely.


Clearly some stuff would happen before the elements melt, since some stuff has happened since Peter wrote this in history. Peter's 'telescoping' of the end times, hitting on a few things that will happen does not mean other details predicted in scripture will not happen.

So, what is your position on a Millennium? And Israel's restoration? Post it, please.

 

[presidente]

So, what is your position on a Millennium? And Israel's restoration? Post it, please.

Premil. I believe there is a restoration for the people of Israel, through faith in Christ, predicted in Romans 11 and other scriptures.

 

[Dave-L]

Premil. I believe there is a restoration for the people of Israel, through faith in Christ, predicted in Romans 11 and other scriptures.

Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world. = no national restoration = The Church is Israel. Only through faith in Christ will any be reattached to Israel the Church.

 

[presidente]

Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world. = no national restoration = The Church is Israel. Only through faith in Christ will any be reattached to Israel the Church.

You should look up the meaning of the word 'kosmos' in Greek, for example, https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026009438003100406?journalCode=tbtd

rather than assuming that whatever idea you have in your mind when you read the Bible is what it means. Jesus' and the apostles' teachings should be interpreted consistently with the Old Testament, not based on methods of interpretations developed centuries after the apostles.

 

[Dave-L]

You should look up the meaning of the word 'kosmos' in Greek, for example, https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026009438003100406?journalCode=tbtd

rather than assuming that whatever idea you have in your mind when you read the Bible is what it means. Jesus' and the apostles' teachings should be interpreted consistently with the Old Testament, not based on methods of interpretations developed centuries after the apostles.

Prove what I said is wrong from scripture. Ideas and opinions are of little worth.

 

[garee]

You are changing your position. In the past, you argued that the apostles did not understand. Clearly, they did not have the same understanding you did. Peter, a few chapters later, exhorts the men of Israel to repent so that God may send Christ and times of refreshing might come from the Lord. He was speaking to unrepentant Jews, not the church. Show me one verse in the New Testament where believing Gentiles are unambiguously called, or included in the use of the term 'Israel'. I can show you examples where this is clearly not the case. Romans 11 is a very clear example to the contrary. Israel, in part, is blinded. The blinded individuals are included in the term 'Israel', while 'Gentiles' is used for another group not included in the term 'Israel.' If scripture interprets scripture, where is the scripture to use to justify your redefinition of Israel?

First and foremost we look to the things not seen the eternal, things of faith, not to the temporal corrupted things seen

Just like the word Jew the same applies to the word Israel named by God. . the new born again name giving to the jew. A jew is not one outwardly but one born of the Spirit of Christ . One who have Christ working with them to perform the will of God not seen.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

One clear example in the new testament is where God for the last time renamed his bride the church ."Christian " .A befitting name for his bride. Literally meaning residents of the heavenly city as the wife of Christ named after her founder and husband, Christ.

Acts 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Salvation has nothing to do with flesh and blood against flesh and blood rather that the spiritual work of God who works with the believer . The work is described as Israel God defines the word usage . Israel he who wrestle with flesh and blood mankind an overcomes having Christ yoked with the new creature the church .

Note . . . (purple in parenthesis) my addition to help keep focus on the text.

Genesis 32: 24-30 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man (flesh and blood) with him until the breaking of the day.And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.(flesh and blood) And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.(flesh and blood deceiver) And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob,(flesh and blood deceiver) but Israel: for as a prince hast thou "power" with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob(flesh and blood deceiver) asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

There is no preservation after the name Jacob. That would represent divorced Israel the deceivers flesh and blood (Jacob)
Not all Israel is made up of born again believers as His bride from all the nations of the world.

No face to face with God, ( faith to faith) no salvation a person simply continues to wrestle against flesh and blood and not overcome having no power to do so.

 

[garee]

You should look up the meaning of the word 'kosmos' in Greek, for example, https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026009438003100406?journalCode=tbtd

rather than assuming that whatever idea you have in your mind when you read the Bible is what it means. Jesus' and the apostles' teachings should be interpreted consistently with the Old Testament, not based on methods of interpretations developed centuries after the apostles.

You are accrediting to the apostle the work of God (blasphemy) .Its not the teaching of the apostles as if God was served by human hands.

Based on His methods of interpretations we dare not give it over to flesh and blood the temporal things seen .

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen (the temporal flesh and blood), but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; (flesh and blood) but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[presidente]

Prove what I said is wrong from scripture. Ideas and opinions are of little worth.

Did you read the link? The 'world' has to do with the present order of things. Prove your interpretation is correct. You are the one asserting it. We have to look at the whole Bible, not one verse taken out of context. We are in the world, but not of the world, but we currently live in this present evil age, but there is an age to come.

Many supercessionists, a perspective common among amils, though it is not the same thing, tend to take prophecies to Israel as promises to the church. There are prophecies about the future of Israel, including prophecies about Israel restored to the land accompanied by details that have not yet been fulfilled yet in the Old Testament. Futurists generally believe that these prophecies will be fulfilled in the future. But supercessionists tend to take prophecies about Israel to refer to the church.

But how is that consistent with scripture? In the following passage, there is a prophecy about Israel and a prophecy about the Gentiles.

Look at the prophecy in Isaiah 49:
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Notice that Israel and the Gentiles who receive salvation are treated as two groups in terms of the terminology used. Paul also quotes in Romans, 'Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with His people.' Throughout Romans, Paul uses 'Israel' to refer to the nation, part of which is blinded, and part of which believes in Christ.

Consider this prophecy
Deuteronomy 30:1-5
30 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Judah was brought back to the land once. What about the other tribes?

Regarding Israel's salvation in the end time here is a key passage.

Romans 11
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Many supercessationists interpreting this passage historically have accepted that there is a restoration of the nation to come at the end of the end of the age after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. Though there are a few who try to irrationally apply their idea that the church is Israel even in this passage. We should acknowledge that Paul and the prophets treat 'Gentiles' and 'Israel' as two different groups in terms of the way he uses terminology, even when he is referring to believing Gentiles. He also uses 'Israel' to include unbelievers. Both Jew and Gentiles can be heirs of the promises. There is 'no difference' in terms of salvation by faith. But he still uses different terminology.

This passage tells us of a future national salvation for the people of Israel, many of whom are enemies concerning the Gospel now.

 

[presidente]

You should look up the meaning of the word 'kosmos' in Greek, for example, https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026009438003100406?journalCode=tbtd

rather than assuming that whatever idea you have in your mind when you read the Bible is what it means. Jesus' and the apostles' teachings should be interpreted consistently with the Old Testament, not based on methods of interpretations developed centuries after the apostles.

You are accrediting to the apostle the work of God (blasphemy) .Its not the teaching of the apostles as if God was served by human hands.

You are making a foolish accusation that makes no sense based on what I posted. The apostles were not the source of the divine truth that they preached. But Jesus did say to His disciples that Spirit would lead them into all truth. Paul said 'be ye followers of me' as He followed Christ. The Bible says to contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.

My comments do not deify the apostles. You have no basis for accusing me of blasphemy based on my post. Slander is a sin.

 

[Dave-L]

Did you read the link? The 'world' has to do with the present order of things. Prove your interpretation is correct. You are the one asserting it. We have to look at the whole Bible, not one verse taken out of context. We are in the world, but not of the world, but we currently live in this present evil age, but there is an age to come.

Many supercessionists, a perspective common among amils, though it is not the same thing, tend to take prophecies to Israel as promises to the church. There are prophecies about the future of Israel, including prophecies about Israel restored to the land accompanied by details that have not yet been fulfilled yet in the Old Testament. Futurists generally believe that these prophecies will be fulfilled in the future. But supercessionists tend to take prophecies about Israel to refer to the church.

But how is that consistent with scripture? In the following passage, there is a prophecy about Israel and a prophecy about the Gentiles.

Look at the prophecy in Isaiah 49:
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Notice that Israel and the Gentiles who receive salvation are treated as two groups in terms of the terminology used. Paul also quotes in Romans, 'Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with His people.' Throughout Romans, Paul uses 'Israel' to refer to the nation, part of which is blinded, and part of which believes in Christ.

Consider this prophecy
Deuteronomy 30:1-5
30 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Judah was brought back to the land once. What about the other tribes?

Regarding Israel's salvation in the end time here is a key passage.

Romans 11
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Many supercessationists interpreting this passage historically have accepted that there is a restoration of the nation to come at the end of the end of the age after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. Though there are a few who try to irrationally apply their idea that the church is Israel even in this passage. We should acknowledge that Paul and the prophets treat 'Gentiles' and 'Israel' as two different groups in terms of the way he uses terminology, even when he is referring to believing Gentiles. He also uses 'Israel' to include unbelievers. Both Jew and Gentiles can be heirs of the promises. There is 'no difference' in terms of salvation by faith. But he still uses different terminology.

This passage tells us of a future national salvation for the people of Israel, many of whom are enemies concerning the Gospel now.

The Church is Israel. Proof?

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:22–23 (KJV 1900)

 

[presidente]

First and foremost we look to the things not seen the eternal, things of faith, not to the temporal corrupted things seen

Just like the word Jew the same applies to the word Israel named by God. . the new born again name giving to the jew. A jew is not one outwardly but one born of the Spirit of Christ . One who have Christ working with them to perform the will of God not seen.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Read this passage in context. It is addressed to Jews. 'Behold thou art called a Jew.' Paul addresses the one who boasts in the law, and goes on to say, "What advantage has the Jew. Much every way..." The issue is what makes Jews real Jews. He doesn't say whether believing Gentiles are 'Jews' in this passage. That is not the context. And Paul uses 'Israel' as a distinct group from Gentiles in this epistle.

One clear example in the new testament is where God for the last time renamed his bride the church ."Christian " .A befitting name for his bride. Literally meaning residents of the heavenly city as the wife of Christ named after her founder and husband, Christ.

Acts 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.[/quote}

There are those who think 'Christian' might have been used as a mocking title. But the second century, it may have been a homophone of 'good'. Maybe they were calling them something like 'goody-two-shoes' in English.

But there is nothing here that indicates that God did away with the word 'Israel' to refer to the nation of Israel or other names for the church like Nazarene, followers of the Way.

Salvation has nothing to do with flesh and blood against flesh and blood rather that the spiritual work of God who works with the believer .

I Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Many sick people were healed/'saved'.

The work is described as Israel God defines the word usage . Israel he who wrestle with flesh and blood mankind an overcomes having Christ yoked with the new creature the church .

'Ekklesia' is used to refer to the gathering of Israel in the Greek version of the Old Testament, just as the term is used of other gatherings. The Athenians used it of their assembly. But Paul uses 'Israel' to refer to the nation of Israel in his writings.

Note . . . (

purple in parenthesis) my addition to help keep focus on the text.

Genesis 32: 24-30 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man (flesh and blood) with him until the breaking of the day.And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.(flesh and blood) And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.(flesh and blood deceiver) And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob,(flesh and blood deceiver) but Israel: for as a prince hast thou "power" with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob(flesh and blood deceiver) asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

There is no preservation after the name Jacob. That would represent divorced Israel the deceivers flesh and blood (Jacob)

The name 'Jacob' was still used in various passages throughout the prophets later.

 

[presidente]

The Church is Israel. Proof?

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:22–23 (KJV 1900)

This is a command Israel did not obey, like many others. But it does not say that Gentiles would now be called 'Israel' if the people rejected Christ. Paul referred to those who did not accept that Prophet as Israel-- those that were blinded-- and those Israelites who accepted as Israel-- the remnant in Romans 11. In Romans 11, the Gentiles who are grafted in are not called 'Israel.'

 

[Dave-L]

This is a command Israel did not obey, like many others. But it does not say that Gentiles would now be called 'Israel' if the people rejected Christ. Paul referred to those who did not accept that Prophet as Israel-- those that were blinded-- and those Israelites who accepted as Israel-- the remnant in Romans 11. In Romans 11, the Gentiles who are grafted in are not called 'Israel.'

Abraham's Seed Jesus is Israel.

 

[presidente]

Abraham's Seed Jesus is Israel.

Romans 10:1 says,
"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. "

Does Jesus need saving?

Romans 10
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Is it Christ Whom the Lord wishes to provoke to jealousy?

Romans 10
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Christ was obedient, even to death on a cross.

Romans 11:7 says,
"Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for ..."

But didn't Christ obtain that which he sought, or won't He?