Does man have a libertarian free will?

[John146]

I'm not sure how that affects free will.

I think your claim is that God must learn some things by experience. My position is that he knows all things, and he knows every thought that ever existed since eternity. And, because he engineered the human body, he knows how all of those things feel.

So, no, I don't think God learned himself while Jesus was incarnate. Jesus the incarnated man learned, but that doesn't mean in his deity he did not know those things.

It sounds to me like you are, in fact, an open theist. If I remember right, when I first started posting here, someone told me that you were an open theist, after observing some of the claims you made.

One reason God became flesh...to become our high priest as a mediator. His sufferings has allowed Him to see things as a human being burdened. The Lord is now able to better help us in our times of need.

Hebrews 2
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

 

[John146]

There are different senses to God's will.

God's decretive will never fail to come to pass. God decrees something, and it will never fail to come to pass.

For instance, God willed that Jesus die on the Cross. There was no way this decree would fail to be accomplished.

God's prescriptive will can fail to come to pass. God prescribes something, such as obedience to his commands, but he allows people to break these commandments. His prescriptive will can fail to come to pass.

You're failing to distinguish between different senses.

How I see it is, those things God has declared in His word will come to pass. All other things are man’s choices and God works in and around our choices to carry out His ultimate plans.

 

[John146]

One reason God became flesh...to become our high priest as a mediator. His sufferings has allowed Him to see things as a human being burdened. The Lord is now able to better help us in our times of need.

Hebrews 2
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The Lord can now be touched with the feeling of our infirmities! Now we can approach Him bodly with our needs.

Hebrews 4
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[Brandnewday]

Libertarian? I thought this creation stuff was more along the lines of Independent.

An issue I had with what was taught in the churches I would attend is, their teachings seek to make a person believe we're made by God to be sinners even before we're born.
And before that happens it is God's prerogative and was already determined , to save us from being sinners. Or not. And when not, we would suffer the punishment the bible describes.

I think this would necessarily mean God created us to die condemned from our beginning. (The individual). Unless or until we find God in the form of Christ. And then somehow choose to realize what we are, sinners, and decide to change that by the exercise of our own free choice. Which would be our delusion if everything is predetermined.
And then all that is accomplished is ultimately due to our believing God created us to be sinners in our beginning, died so as to change what he made us to be in the beginning, and to create in us. Which begs the question.

If he predetermined who is saved and who is not, and only he changes that in those he's prescribed to be such, why do we have to do anything at all? Including gain or hold faith? When the sorts of teachings I'm coming across, like in this discussion, basically communicate to us that God does it all. We're just the pawn he does it to. Or doesn't. And then we suffer eternally for finite mistakes we were predestined to make because we were made not to be able to do anything less by the creator that damned us for it, because he predetermined before we were created we were't going to be saved from it.

Sounds like a really weird philosophy when thinking that is an example of a God that is all love. If God is love, how did he come up with the idea of Hell? That he created first for fallen angels that still have his ear from time to time. And yet they still mess with us in his presence.

I don't think we humans have been taught to have a very good view of what is suppose to be a higher divine consciousness.
Love me or you'll burn in Hell! Wait! You can't choose to love me! I have to make you to do that because I predetermined you should. Tough luck on those I didn't .

What?

 

[NOV25]

Libertarian? I thought this creation stuff was more along the lines of Independent.

An issue I had with what was taught in the churches I would attend is, their teachings seek to make a person believe we're made by God to be sinners even before we're born.
And before that happens it is God's prerogative and was already determined , to save us from being sinners. Or not. And when not, we would suffer the punishment the bible describes.

I think this would necessarily mean God created us to die condemned from our beginning. (The individual). Unless or until we find God in the form of Christ. And then somehow choose to realize what we are, sinners, and decide to change that by the exercise of our own free choice. Which would be our delusion if everything is predetermined.
And then all that is accomplished is ultimately due to our believing God created us to be sinners in our beginning, died so as to change what he made us to be in the beginning, and to create in us. Which begs the question.

If he predetermined who is saved and who is not, and only he changes that in those he's prescribed to be such, why do we have to do anything at all? Including gain or hold faith? When the sorts of teachings I'm coming across, like in this discussion, basically communicate to us that God does it all. We're just the pawn he does it to. Or doesn't. And then we suffer eternally for finite mistakes we were predestined to make because we were made not to be able to do anything less by the creator that damned us for it, because he predetermined before we were created we were't going to be saved from it.

Sounds like a really weird philosophy when thinking that is an example of a God that is all love. If God is love, how did he come up with the idea of Hell? That he created first for fallen angels that still have his ear from time to time. And yet they still mess with us in his presence.

I don't think we humans have been taught to have a very good view of what is suppose to be a higher divine consciousness.
Love me or you'll burn in Hell! Wait! You can't choose to love me! I have to make you to do that because I predetermined you should. Tough luck on those I didn't .

What?

Romans 9:19-22 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Libertarian? I thought this creation stuff was more along the lines of Independent.

An issue I had with what was taught in the churches I would attend is, their teachings seek to make a person believe we're made by God to be sinners even before we're born.
And before that happens it is God's prerogative and was already determined , to save us from being sinners. Or not. And when not, we would suffer the punishment the bible describes.

I think this would necessarily mean God created us to die condemned from our beginning. (The individual). Unless or until we find God in the form of Christ. And then somehow choose to realize what we are, sinners, and decide to change that by the exercise of our own free choice. Which would be our delusion if everything is predetermined.
And then all that is accomplished is ultimately due to our believing God created us to be sinners in our beginning, died so as to change what he made us to be in the beginning, and to create in us. Which begs the question.

If he predetermined who is saved and who is not, and only he changes that in those he's prescribed to be such, why do we have to do anything at all? Including gain or hold faith? When the sorts of teachings I'm coming across, like in this discussion, basically communicate to us that God does it all. We're just the pawn he does it to. Or doesn't. And then we suffer eternally for finite mistakes we were predestined to make because we were made not to be able to do anything less by the creator that damned us for it, because he predetermined before we were created we were't going to be saved from it.

Sounds like a really weird philosophy when thinking that is an example of a God that is all love. If God is love, how did he come up with the idea of Hell? That he created first for fallen angels that still have his ear from time to time. And yet they still mess with us in his presence.

I don't think we humans have been taught to have a very good view of what is suppose to be a higher divine consciousness.
Love me or you'll burn in Hell! Wait! You can't choose to love me! I have to make you to do that because I predetermined you should. Tough luck on those I didn't .

What?

welcome to Calvinism

makes no sense at all

and then believing that a person is regenerated BEFORE they are saved is absolutely not found in the Bible

but it is part of the true blue Calvinists explanation for God choosing rather than the clear teaching that we do choose

they would have us believe God creates the sin and then the temptation to fall into it

 

[Brandnewday]

welcome to Calvinism

makes no sense at all

and then believing that a person is regenerated BEFORE they are saved is absolutely not found in the Bible

but it is part of the true blue Calvinists explanation for God choosing rather than the clear teaching that we do choose

they would have us believe God creates the sin and then the temptation to fall into it

Man made fictions seldom make sense.
I find it to be more like God creates sin when he created laws that are impossible to follow perfectly. And that failure is sin. What makes little sense is that he then creates people to be born sinners first. And they can't leave that state unless they're one of the chosen ones he predetermined to save before they were born lost.
If he was going to save them because they're that special why would he let them be born a sinner so that they sin, first? And after they behave by their God given nature, God decides the time and place to save them from that by his actions toward them. Because he made them incapable of choosing him on their own.

That just doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[Brandnewday]

Romans 9:19-22 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

While leaving the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction and not chosen by the potter to be vessels of mercy, were afore destined unto damnation by their potter.
Potter creates clay in the beginning.
Potter makes pots as the only potter that exists. Potter predetermines what pots he'll glaze and decorate so as to example his glorious workmanship. Potter predetermines what pots he'll create for the express purpose of shattering them upon the ground so that they become but shards under foot.
Pots created to be glazed and show potters best work are grateful.
Pots created to be destroyed were thus created because the potter can do that, because it is his clay and his wheel.
Shattered pots need realize they earned it. They could do nothing to become like unto the glazed glorious examples of potters craft. They were fated to shatter as the potter willed.

This is called proof of the grace of the potter.


This is called proof of the grace of the potter?

 

[NOV25]

welcome to Calvinism

makes no sense at all

and then believing that a person is regenerated BEFORE they are saved is absolutely not found in the Bible

but it is part of the true blue Calvinists explanation for God choosing rather than the clear teaching that we do choose

they would have us believe God creates the sin and then the temptation to fall into it

It makes sense if you’ve been given sense to understand it.

Decisional regeneration is the folly, that one who is dead in sin can muster up belief unto salvation. Nay, repentance is granted/given/caused, the change of mind, heart and soul from sin to God in a miraculous rebirth resulting in belief. It’s an amazing transformation, one only God himself can do.

Sadly, some cannot see it plainly in scripture. Why? Either they haven’t experienced it or they have but don’t understand it.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

It makes sense if you’ve been given sense to understand it.

Decisional regeneration is the folly, that one who is dead in sin can muster up belief unto salvation. Nay, repentance is granted/given/caused, the change of mind, heart and soul from sin to God in a miraculous rebirth resulting in belief. It’s an amazing transformation, one only God himself can do.

Sadly, some cannot see it plainly in scripture. Why? Either they haven’t experienced it or they have but don’t understand it.

or under the illusion you have special knowledge because God makes every decision for you

whatever

I never agree with you anyway so why start now?

Sadly, some cannot see it plainly in scripture. Why? Either they haven’t experienced it or they have but don’t understand it.

that's a good thing actually. we don't see it cause it is not there

we are regenerated though...which happens after salvation

what absolute absurdity to state God regenerates people...so they have no choice but to accept Christ

Calvinism has all the answers and Calvinists made them up all by themselves

 

[NOV25]

I also subscribed to the free will notion for 20 years as a professing Christian, sadly I wasn’t Christian. Of course I didn’t realize this until I was actually made new and believe me I never thought for a second it was something that I did or chose to do. Then I devoured the word, me and the Spirit, no mentor, no outside worldly influences and everything just jumped out at me. I don’t know anything about Calvin all I know is I’m Christian now and it had nothing to do with me. No matter how hard I prayed, tried or cried all those years the nature remained the same deep down. If you’re a new creation you’ll know it and you’ll know it’s nothing you could ever accomplish.

 

[Brandnewday]

It makes sense if you’ve been given sense to understand it.

Decisional regeneration is the folly, that one who is dead in sin can muster up belief unto salvation. Nay, repentance is granted/given/caused, the change of mind, heart and soul from sin to God in a miraculous rebirth resulting in belief. It’s an amazing transformation, one only God himself can do.

Sadly, some cannot see it plainly in scripture. Why? Either they haven’t experienced it or they have but don’t understand it.

Or, because it isn't there and what is happening for people that first believe it is, is known as confirmation bias.

I also subscribed to the free will notion for 20 years as a professing Christian, sadly I wasn’t Christian. Of course I didn’t realize this until I was actually made new and believe me I never thought for a second it was something that I did or chose to do. Then I devoured the word, me and the Spirit, no mentor, no outside worldly influences and everything just jumped out at me. I don’t know anything about Calvin all I know is I’m Christian now and it had nothing to do with me. No matter how hard I prayed, tried or cried all those years the nature remained the same deep down. If you’re a new creation you’ll know it and you’ll know it’s nothing you could ever accomplish.

I missed that version. "In the beginning God created robots in his image and likeness." No free will, no free choice.

That means everything is God's doing.
Think Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Ed Gein, Wacco, Noah's flood.

 

[NOV25]

Can one of you explain the motive behind your dislike for Calvin? Just to reiterate I am not a Calvinist, but I am curious what drives the hatred for the doctrine efficacious grace.

 

[Brandnewday]

Can one of you explain the motive behind your dislike for Calvin? Just to reiterate I am not a Calvinist, but I am curious what drives the hatred for the doctrine efficacious grace.

For my answer, I would tell you that I think hatred is a strong word. It isn't hate to find a teaching doesn't make sense.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Who has resisted his will? We do all the time with our choices.

Even when you think you are resisting his will, you are not.

Study Joseph's brothers...they sold him into slavery, but Joseph told them, in fact, that they did God's will, even when they were sinning.

Same thing with the evil people who crucified Christ. They meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.

But..this blows a circuit in the free-willer brain

 

[NOV25]

For my answer, I would tell you that I think hatred is a strong word. It isn't hate to find a teaching doesn't make sense.

Hatred is the perfect word, you just compared me to Charles Manson. Would you care to answer the question? Can you answer the question, do you even know why you hate the doctrine?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Can one of you explain the motive behind your dislike for Calvin? Just to reiterate I am not a Calvinist, but I am curious what drives the hatred for the doctrine efficacious grace.

I know you aren't talking to me, but I consider myself to be Reformed, not Calvinist. It makes as much sense to call a monergist an Augustinian or a Paulician. I am uncertain why some Reformed people allow themselves to be called Calvinist, or refer to themselves by this label.

Not that I dislike Calvin. He was a very sharp guy. One of the best minds of Christianity.

A lot of these older guys have been affected by propaganda from guys like Dave Hunt, Steve Tassi and George Bryson. Dave was a dispensationalist "propagandist"...a crotchety, old grouchy guy. Dave dug up historically inaccurate stuff by those who hate monergism, and engaged in ad hominem attacks on Calvin.

Calvary Chapel and Independent Fundamentalist Baptist types gravitated toward his propagandistic style. Watch a debate of his...you can get an idea on his mentality.

By the way I"m getting older so I'm not cutting down older guys but the guys about ten years older than me were indoctrinated by guys like him. I guess, though, it happens with Leighton Flowers and other guys who appeal more to the younger generation.

 

[Brandnewday]

Hatred is the perfect word, you just compared me to Charles Manson. Would you care to answer the question? Can you answer the question, do you even know why you hate the doctrine?

First you claim you see hatred in peoples remarks about whatever ails you. Then you claim you're not a Calvinist but you want to know why people hate Calvin. Now you're claiming I compared you to Charles Manson, when I named a few other psycho's. Are you saying you relate to Charles Manson more than Ted Bundy or Ed Gein? You claim I compared you to one of those lunatics.
You're not a Calvinist but you're actually taking offense as if you are one.
You have a few problems there bud, and I can't help you. You reading hate where someone who wrote what you're claiming is hate tells you it isn't, is your issue.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But..this blows a circuit in the free-willer brain

There you go insulting those who reject your Calvinistic beliefs. However since free will is what God has given to mankind, you are actually mocking God by calling other Christians "free-willers".

At the same time, your will and your psyche have already gone into bondage to man-made doctrines. There is no need to bring up personalities. You cannot support your beliefs from the Bible, so you must distort the Gospel in order to make it conform to Five Point Calvinism.

 

[NOV25]

First you claim you see hatred in peoples remarks about whatever ails you. Then you claim you're not a Calvinist but you want to know why people hate Calvin. Now you're claiming I compared you to Charles Manson, when I named a few other psycho's. Are you saying you relate to Charles Manson more than Ted Bundy or Ed Gein? You claim I compared you to one of those lunatics.
You're not a Calvinist but you're actually taking offense as if you are one.
You have a few problems there bud, and I can't help you. You reading hate where someone who wrote what you're claiming is hate tells you it isn't, is your issue.

You stated those who align with Calvin’s interpretation of scripture are like Manson... But that doesn’t even matter, what matters is you avoiding the question of why you hate the doctrine. You can claim not to hate it but your actions prove otherwise. So again, why so angry 😡 what drives this contempt towards the doctrine?