Demons in our Church.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
The modern church is geared towards being a corporation...
It would be more accurate to say that mega churches are more like corporations, since there is no monolithic *church* out there. There are churches and churches, and there are denominations and denominations. They all cannot be lumped together unless one speaks of Christendom.

As to the OP it is based on a false premise. Christianity is not Judaism and Judaism is not Christianity. But some wish to have it both ways.

No one preaches this nonsense: "Some preach the law has been cancelled, so with no law it is OK to sin."
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
So you think that a people roaming about the desert on day one were making proselytes, hiring foreigners as servants, and that these who just left slavery had slaves themselves.

Why do you bother talking to me?

So while God did indeed give them the ordinance of circumcision, right after leaving Egypt, there is no doubt that there wasn't a line to join their ranks and they became exiled to the desert.
Why do you bother making a claim you can't support ?
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
It would be more accurate to say that mega churches are more like corporations, since there is no monolithic *church* out there. There are churches and churches, and there are denominations and denominations. They all cannot be lumped together unless one speaks of Christendom.

As to the OP it is based on a false premise. Christianity is not Judaism and Judaism is not Christianity. But some wish to have it both ways.

No one preaches this nonsense: "Some preach the law has been cancelled, so with no law it is OK to sin."
That's because no one on this forum is a preacher.
That doesn't mean that some do not make that argument when they claim the law no longer exists.If they know their scripture they know this. And if they object to that fact they should leave the Denomination that led them to misunderstand God and seek the truth so as to turn from that falsehood they currently espouse as truth. To say the law no longer exists means more than just making a false statement concerning scripture. The law, as those who know the scripture, and sin are related. To say one no longer exists, is to affirm the other no longer applies.

The Epistle to the Romans chapter 5:13; for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


The Epistle to the Romans chapter 7:7; What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." 8. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

The Epistle of 1st Corinthians chapter 15:56; The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

The Epistle to the Galatians chapter 3:24; Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Further, it is a false premise to think Christianity exists without Judaism as its foundation.

That's what was mentioned before, when a Denomination or its followers make that argument; it is grounded in anti-Judaism, and worse, Antisemitism.
Jesus was a Jew. The first converts were Jews. The Apostles were Jews. The Apostles followed the Law and the Sabbath during their time with the Master and after He departed. As did Saul/Paul.

Therefore, the argument that the law doesn't exist anymore, nor is the Sabbath applicable, is not only contrary to scripture, but contrary to the Truth of Gods words through Christ!
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
Why do you bother making a claim you can't support ?
the Bible neither says that they were or were not taking proselytes at that time. Both arguments come from biblical silence on the matter. However there is the mind that God gave us for the purpose of reasoning. I gave the rationale behind the belief that they were not taking proselytes as the exited Egypt in a with out much prep time evacuation.
For entertainment sake please indulge me in the reason anyone that didn't have to would with out any preparation pull up and leave their homes and culture behind, and join this rabble of slaves as they trek off into the unknown.
Neither is it spoken of in any of the texts of antiquity of any Egyptian joining this exodus into the wilderness. It seems that would be note worthy at some point.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
the Bible neither says that they were or were not taking proselytes at that time. Both arguments come from biblical silence on the matter. However there is the mind that God gave us for the purpose of reasoning. I gave the rationale behind the belief that they were not taking proselytes as the exited Egypt in a with out much prep time evacuation.
For entertainment sake please indulge me in the reason anyone that didn't have to would with out any preparation pull up and leave their homes and culture behind, and join this rabble of slaves as they trek off into the unknown.
Neither is it spoken of in any of the texts of antiquity of any Egyptian joining this exodus into the wilderness. It seems that would be note worthy at some point.
You made your argument from "Biblical silence on the matter". Thank you for your reply.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,974
113
MATT. 5:17.
Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled.

if it was TRUE that Jesus 'did away with the Law', then 'heaven and earth would have passed', but the last time we looked
by golly, I saw them both...

yes, the Bibles says that 'eventually' heaven and earth WILL PASS AWAY', but that obviously an (END-TIME-PROPHECY),
as we said, 'we looked, and they were still there'. -
as it is written:
PS. 119.89.
LAMED. For ever, O LORD, Thy Word is settled in heaven forever.

and to comment on MAT. 5:17.,
every 'translation' renders the thought the same, (do not think-do not suppose, that I have come to destroy the Law') -

Christ is our Head, we listen to Him above all' the (man-made-doctrines) -
it is written again:
'I will make a new-covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah' -
HEB. 8:10.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith The Lord;
I will put My Laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God,
and they shall be to Me a people:

so Jesus tells us by His own mouth that NOT ONE JOT or ONE TITTLE shall pass from the Law till ALL be fulfilled -
and in Hebrews it tells us that 'I will write My Laws upon their hearts', and in Isaiah, it tells us in a 'Kingdom-Prophecy',
that the Law=Torah, shall proceed out of Zion, and Psalms. tells us that His Word is settles in Heaven 'Forever', =

So, who do you 'believe-in'??? God, or man???
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
You made your argument from "Biblical silence on the matter". Thank you for your reply.
Just like you have so what's your point?

Is it hypocrisy?
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,974
113
this comment
and
reply
both sound like 'grade-school' bantering and badgering,
it's shameful...
how old are guys???
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
this comment
and
reply
both sound like 'grade-school' bantering and badgering,
it's shameful...
how old are guys???
Agreed , I shouldn't have gotten drawn into it. Thanks for your honesty. Please remain so.
 

8084cc

New member
Mar 11, 2020
14
6
3
San Diego, CA
@Bede, don't just disagree and leave. Make an argument as to why you disagree. Thanks.
I think we will always be back to this. Any Denomination or teaching that seeks to eradicate the Jews from Christianity is Satanic. If we ignore those, because the followers of such things will not be rebuked and be satisfied with that, we don't have to come back to certain aspects of the discussion as pertains to Gods eternal law.
As you observed, Jesus said He had other sheep who were not of "this fold", and He must bring them in also. So that there is one flock and one shepherd.
Another consideration concerning those Satanic doctrines. When they teach the laws of God are no longer applicable, they're teaching what can be recalled as, easy believerism. And also, hedonistic, carnal, faith practiced, because that teaching means also that sin is no longer an issue for those type believers. They can do whatever they like, because sin does not exist where there is no law.

The conflicting argument of that which is either Doctrine dedicated to anti-Judaism/Jewish or worse, antisemitism, often cites Saul as supporting the doctrine. Nothing could be further from truth.(*Saul/Paul) is my addition to the sentence below.
Benson Commentary
Romans 3:29-31. Is he the God of the Jews only? — He (*Saul/Paul) argues from the absurdity of such a supposition. Can it be imagined that a God of infinite love and mercy should limit and confine his favours to the little perverse people of the Jews, leaving all the rest of mankind in an eternally desperate condition? That would by no means agree with the idea we have of the divine goodness, for his tender mercies are over all his works. He is the God of the Gentiles also — And therefore hath established a way of justification, equally open to the Gentiles as to the Jews. Seeing it is one God — The same eternal and unchangeable Jehovah, that will justify the circumcision — The Jews, by faith; and the uncircumcision — The Gentiles, through the same faith — As if he had said, The way of justification is the same to both, whatever difference men may make in their expressions about it. He shows mercy to both, and by the very same means. Macknight thinks the expression, δια πιστεως, through faith, in the latter clause, is an ellipsis, for through the law of faith, mentioned Romans 3:27, (where see the note,) and signifies the method of salvation by faith, established in the new covenant, called a law for the reasons there given. “By this law of faith the Gentiles are to be justified. For though they have not the doctrines of revelation, as the objects of their faith, they may believe the doctrines of natural religion, (Hebrews 11:5,) and live agreeably to them: in which case their faith will be counted to them for righteousness, equally as the faith of those who enjoy revelation.” The same learned writer supposes, that in the expression, seeing there is one God, the apostle alludes to Zechariah 14:8, where the prophet foretels the progress of the gospel, under the image of living waters going out from Jerusalem, and then adds, Romans 3:9, And the Lord shall be king over all the earth, and in that day there shall be one Lord, and his name one; to show, that under the gospel dispensation, all nations shall be regarded by God as his people, that he will be acknowledged and worshipped by all nations, and that in the affair of their justification and salvation, he will observe one rule. Do we then — While we maintain this method of justification and salvation, make void the law — Set it aside, or render it useless, as καταργουμεν properly signifies; through faith — By teaching that justification is by faith, and that it is free for the Gentiles, as well as the Jews, in that way? God forbid — That we should ever insinuate such a design, or entertain such a thought; yea, we establish the law — On a firmer foundation than ever, and place it in a juster and more beautiful point of light: for we show that its honour is displayed in the atonement, as well as in the obedience of Christ; and we make it of everlasting use, for attesting the truth, and illustrating the necessity of the gospel, as well as for directing the lives of men, when they profess to have received it. In other words, we establish the authority, the purity, and the end of it; by defending that which the law attests, by pointing out Christ the end of it, and by showing how the moral part of it may be fulfilled in its purity. For through the influence of a faith that worketh by love, being enabled to love God, his children, and all mankind in sincerity and truth, we are brought to serve him without slavish fear, in holiness and righteousness before him, and to walk in his ordinances and moral commandments blameless. So that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, while we walk, not after the flesh, but after the Spirit; love to God and man, productive of such fruits, being accounted by God the fulfilling of the law, Romans 13:8-10; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8. Thus also that more ancient and universal law, which God has written on men’s hearts, and which we have termed the law of nature, is established in the strongest manner in and by the gospel. For every one that makes the moral law of Moses the rule of his conduct, will also observe the precepts of this, as included therein.
We are unable to be holy and without blame before Him in love without the cleansing blood of Jesus. We establish the law through faith in God's perfect sacrifice for us.
So, if it is OUR duty to keep the law through loving faith, then there HAS to be a standard or "status quo" that is considered holy.
If my God given faith is not in it's entirety the total of my salvation and eternal life, then I must take my faith off of the perfect will and word of God and focus on my ability to achieve. When I lay down at night I must thank God for MY ability to obtain righteousness.
Now, since it's MY righteousness that I must rely on for salvation. That means I can not love God with the purity of a free heart because I am not made free of the sting of death because my eternal destiny is still dependent upon my ability to establish the law through this faith that Christ came down and was sacrificed for my sins, but I must work to show God I am holy because I DO MY BEST to fulfill the law. It is impossible to work to please without a measure of self righteousness.
So, I take this partial love and my best efforts, and with the reassurance of my self righteousness, I make my way through life trying to be holy, and failing, and loving, and failing.
I like the truth in the word of God, and that is that He chose to make me holy and blameless because he loves me, and that is so wonderful that I can love him openly and freely without hinder.
You see, if you are a true child of God, and you have the Spirit of Truth within you, you keep the law through faith unfeigned. You can choose to sin, and you will not lose your salvation, but out of LOVE you remain obedient.
I feel that those who smirk or cringe at this doctrine are the ones that will be crying "Lord, Lord" on the last day only to be rejected by Christ. All the ones that Said the sinners prayer and "chose" to accept Christ, never realizing that you have to be chosen by Him. The spirit of Truth you believe you possess is a surface faith you entreat through self righteousness.
Those who are not chosen will never be able to comprehend the truth.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
We are unable to be holy and without blame before Him in love without the cleansing blood of Jesus. We establish the law through faith in God's perfect sacrifice for us.
So, if it is OUR duty to keep the law through loving faith, then there HAS to be a standard or "status quo" that is considered holy.
If my God given faith is not in it's entirety the total of my salvation and eternal life, then I must take my faith off of the perfect will and word of God and focus on my ability to achieve. When I lay down at night I must thank God for MY ability to obtain righteousness.
Now, since it's MY righteousness that I must rely on for salvation. That means I can not love God with the purity of a free heart because I am not made free of the sting of death because my eternal destiny is still dependent upon my ability to establish the law through this faith that Christ came down and was sacrificed for my sins, but I must work to show God I am holy because I DO MY BEST to fulfill the law. It is impossible to work to please without a measure of self righteousness.
So, I take this partial love and my best efforts, and with the reassurance of my self righteousness, I make my way through life trying to be holy, and failing, and loving, and failing.
I like the truth in the word of God, and that is that He chose to make me holy and blameless because he loves me, and that is so wonderful that I can love him openly and freely without hinder.
You see, if you are a true child of God, and you have the Spirit of Truth within you, you keep the law through faith unfeigned. You can choose to sin, and you will not lose your salvation, but out of LOVE you remain obedient.
I feel that those who smirk or cringe at this doctrine are the ones that will be crying "Lord, Lord" on the last day only to be rejected by Christ. All the ones that Said the sinners prayer and "chose" to accept Christ, never realizing that you have to be chosen by Him. The spirit of Truth you believe you possess is a surface faith you entreat through self righteousness.
Those who are not chosen will never be able to comprehend the truth.
I think you would have been well educated had you read the commentary in the quoted post.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,974
113
Agreed , I shouldn't have gotten drawn into it. Thanks for your honesty. Please remain so.
==========================
this rely is so graduational that it is beyond belief!!!
we Love you very much and thank you for the 'rare humility' you have displayed for all of the world to witness...
:):)
 
Feb 1, 2020
725
225
43
35
In regards to circumcision, I would note that the practice of circumcision started not with Moses, but rather with Abraham. The circumcision itself is not the covenant, but rather the circumcision was an outward sign, a token, of the covenant which was taken between Abraham and God. The covenant itself is that God would be the God of Abraham and his descendants and that Abraham and his children would serve the Lord God. Therefore did Abraham circumcize his children, the most notable of which are Ishmael and Isaac, but also the several other children that Abraham had, as a physical sign that he had accepted this covenant. Though Abraham's other children would forget about Lord God in the course of their history and turn to demon worship, Isaac, and later his son Israel/Jacob and their descendants the Israelites maintained this practice as an outward sign that they held to the covenant of God.

In the New Testament, as some point out, there was a sort of issue that arose early on where some of the apostles like Peter wished to circumcize the Gentiles as they began to grow into the faith of the God. Peter did not do this for any malice or "Judaizing" for Peter was the most unlike the Pharisees being himself a man unlearned and but a poor fisherman whom the Pharisees actually publicly beat. Peter simply intended well not understanding the greater significance. In ironic juxtaposition, the apostle Paul, whom had formerly been a Pharisee (and the Pharisees were desirous to circumcize the Gentiles), argued against Peter, citing that this as being a burden upon the Gentiles. Paul relates how it is better to circumcize your heart and shows that it is not so much the circumcision itself that is important, for the circumcision of the flesh is but a token thing, even when done for good intentions. It is rather the covenant of faith in the True God, the God of Abraham that is important.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
Another thread to promote the FALSE IDEA that both the Old and the New Covenants are in force at the same time.
You should know well enough that Jesus repeated the laws from the Old Testament in his ministry and therefore reiterated certain of Gods laws still apply under His New Covenant.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
You should know well enough that Jesus repeated the laws from the Old Testament in his ministry and therefore reiterated certain of Gods laws still apply under His New Covenant.
The Ten Commandments are applicable in BOTH the Old and the New Covenants. And they are summed up on the Law of Christ (or the Law of Love).

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the Law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law. (Rom 13:8-10)

The Old Covenant was FULFILLED by Christ. The New Covenant is now in effect, and the Ten Commandments are written on hearts and minds, not on tablets of stone.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
The Ten Commandments are applicable in BOTH the Old and the New Covenants. And they are summed up on the Law of Christ (or the Law of Love).

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the Law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law. (Rom 13:8-10)

The Old Covenant was FULFILLED by Christ. The New Covenant is now in effect, and the Ten Commandments are written on hearts and minds, not on tablets of stone.
That's equivocating. You know no one who says the law is still in effect are saying the "tablts of stone" are still in effect.
 
Feb 1, 2020
725
225
43
35
Heh I can't help but note on the tablets of stone upon which the finger of God wrote the ten commandments. What really struck me the first time I read the whole Bible cover-to-cover and I get to this part in Exodus is that the physical tablets of stone were actually physically broken by the hand of Moses almost immediately after they were written. Moses physically broke the tablets that contained the commandments for his great sorrow at the Israelites going back in their hearts to Egypt and creating the golden calf idol. With great laments and zeal Moses punishes the wanton children of Israel by melting their idol and pouring it down their throats. Moses pleads with God not to utterly destroy them right then and there as they all deserved to be destroyed, and God's love for Moses and the few good souls in the encampment shows mercy unto the disobedient.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
Heh I can't help but note on the tablets of stone upon which the finger of God wrote the ten commandments. What really struck me the first time I read the whole Bible cover-to-cover and I get to this part in Exodus is that the physical tablets of stone were actually physically broken by the hand of Moses almost immediately after they were written. Moses physically broke the tablets that contained the commandments for his great sorrow at the Israelites going back in their hearts to Egypt and creating the golden calf idol. With great laments and zeal Moses punishes the wanton children of Israel by melting their idol and pouring it down their throats. Moses pleads with God not to utterly destroy them right then and there as they all deserved to be destroyed, and God's love for Moses and the few good souls in the encampment shows mercy unto the disobedient.
For the sake of new members who may not know scripture or the Exodus at all, or that well, be aware that Moses did not pour molten gold down the throats of the Israelite's, "the children of Israel".
We have to be aware in our zeal for the word that exagerating or using metaphor, etc... to describe scripture may lead those looking for scriptural understanding to not know the difference. Especially if they've never read a verse in the Bible. Hope that helps. :) GBU.