Soul Sleeping? What does scripture say happens to us when we die.

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UnitedWithChrist

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Is Soul Sleep Biblical?
Hank Hanegraaff

“Death is not complete annihilation; it is only a state of temporary unconsciousness while the person awaits the resurrection. The Bible repeatedly calls this intermediate state a sleep….The soul has no conscious existence apart from the body, and no Scripture indicates that at death the soul survives as a conscious entity.”

—Ministerial Association, General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists 1

Seventh-day Adventists are well known for promoting the idea of soul sleep. From their perspective, the soul of a man is indistinguishable from the whole of a man. Thus, the soul of man cannot continue to exist consciously apart from the body.2 In making their case they lean heavily upon the book of Ecclesiastes—especially the words, “The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing” (9:53). Such passages, however, must be interpreted in light of the whole of Scripture, especially the New Testament. The magnifying glass through which we read the Law and the Prophets must ever remain in the hands of the New Testament writers.

First, as the Bible makes clear, the soul is not the whole of a human being. The New Testament unambiguously communicates that the soul continues to have awareness though the body has died. As previously noted, in Luke 16, Jesus tells the parable of a rich man and a beggar who die physically yet experience conscious awareness in the intermediate state—a fact difficult to deny in that the rich man’s brothers are living and final judgment has not yet occurred. Not only so, but the Bible’s use of the word hades, without exception, refers to the transitional rather than the eternal state. Likewise, while being stoned in Acts 7, “Stephen prayed, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ Then he fell on his knees and cried out, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ When he had said this, he fell asleep. And Saul was there giving approval to his death” (Acts 7:59–8:1). It is clear that while the body of Stephen died, the nonphysical aspect of his humanity continued to exist.

Furthermore, as is obvious from the account of Stephen, sleep is a common biblical metaphor for death of the body—in distinction from the soul. John 11 provides the clearest of examples. Here Jesus tells his disciples, “‘Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep but I am going there to wake him up.’ His disciples replied, ‘Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.’ Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead’” (vv. 11–14). Similarly, in 1 Corinthians 15, the apostle Paul says, “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: ‘Death has been swallowed up in victory’” (vv. 51–54). Here, as in myriad other examples,4 the Bible speaks of the body asleep in death. Conversely, the Bible never speaks of the soul asleep in death.

Finally, if the soul did not continue in conscious awareness after the death of the body, it would be incongruent for the apostle Paul to desire to be away from the body in order to be at home with the Lord. Says Paul, “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body” (Phil. 1:21–24). How could death be “better by far” than further fruitful ministry if it entails soul sleep? Paul iterates the same sentiment in a clarion call to the Corinthians: “We are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad” (2 Cor. 5:6–10).

The point here, as elsewhere in the biblical text,5 is that far from soul sleep, to be with Christ is soul satisfaction. While Ecclesiastes 9:5–6 is adduced to the contrary, Solomon does not conclude that “the dead know nothing” under the Son, but the dead know nothing “under the sun.” When we die, “the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it” (Eccl. 12:7).

In short, soul sleep has nothing to commend it biblically. As the Bible makes clear, the soul continues to have consciousness apart from the body; sleep is a biblical metaphor for physical death; and conscious existence in the presence of the Lord during the intermediate state is something we may look forward to with eager anticipation.6—Hank Hanegraaff
 

UnitedWithChrist

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What Do You Believe About the Intermediate State?
Matt Perman


The "intermediate state" is the time between the death and the resurrection. Some have held that during this time we are unconscious or possibly even go out of existence. We do not think that this is biblical.

The biblical evidence is that our soul continues on after death and that we remain conscious in the intermediate state while awaiting our final destiny of resurrected existence in the new heavens and new earth.

First, Paul spoke of having the desire "to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better" (Philippians 1:23). Notice first of all that Paul speaks of death as a departure (from the body) not into temporary nothingness or unconsciousness but to be with Christ. If we are with Christ once we have died, then we continue existing. Second, notice that Paul speaks of this state as "very much better" than the present state. It would be hard to say such a thing of a state of complete unconsciousness. Particularly when we consider that Paul's passion was to know Christ, it would seem that the reason the state beyond death is better than this present life is because we are with Christ and know it. If we were suddenly unconscious at death until the resurrection, wouldn't it be better to remain in this life because at least then we would have conscious fellowship with Christ?

Second, Paul also said that "while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord" and that therefore he would "prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). First, it is significant that he speaks of the possibility of being absent from the body. This implies that we indeed do have souls which continue existing after the body dies. Second, notice again that he speaks of this state as his preference, which indicates (as in Philippians 1:23) that we not only continue existing between death and the resurrection, but that we are aware of our existence.

Third, even though the thief on the cross has been used to prove about every point in Christian theology, his case is still relevant here: "And He said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise'" (Luke 23:43). The Jehovah's Witness's New World Translation punctuates Jesus words as "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise," giving the impression that "today" refers simply to the time of Jesus' statement. But the context demands that the "today" refer to when the thief on the cross would be with Jesus in paradise, because Jesus is responding to his request in the previous verse: "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom!" The response, "Today you shall be with Me in paradise" can in this context only be taken to mean, "Not only will I remember you when I come in my kingdom, but already today you shall be with me in heaven."

Fourth, Revelation 6:9 speaks of John seeing underneath the altar "the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God." These individuals are surely not in a state of soul sleep because in the next verse they cry out "How long, O Lord."
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Here's another one..be aware, though, I don't believe this idea of "temporary heaven" or "temporary hell".

I believe that the evil are being held in some manner, though, until the final judgment..they are being punished consciously, but they are being held for the final, eternal punishment.

I believe Paradise is the presence of God in the third heaven.

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Question: "What does the Bible say about soul sleep?"

Answer: “Soul sleep” is a belief that after a person dies, his/her soul “sleeps” until the resurrection and final judgment. The concept of “soul sleep” is not biblical. When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-23).

Until the final resurrection, though, there is a temporary heaven—paradise (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4) and a temporary hell—Hades (Revelation 1:18; 20:13-14). As can be clearly seen in Luke 16:19-31, neither in paradise nor in Hades are people sleeping. It could be said, though, that a person’s body is “sleeping” while his soul is in paradise or Hades. At the resurrection, this body is “awakened” and transformed into the everlasting body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Present-day defenders of soul sleep include the Seventh Day Adventist church, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, and others.
 

Deade

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I see you can copy and paste other's research material. I do most of my own research and weigh other's into it. In the quote below is my word search on your three parts of our makeup.

Body – Soul – Spirit
Is there a difference between these three elements? The first reference given us for soul is: Gen. 2:7 “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” But it is the same word (nephesh) used in Gen. 1:21 as creature when God formed the animals.

Jesus referred to the soul as pneuma G4151 which pretty much means the spirit. That is where a lot of confusion enters the picture. Looking at the descriptions of spirit and soul we see many similarities. What can we conclude from our study? For sure, there are at least two parts to our makeup. There is no evidence for three parts. The main thing is we need to realize our spirits are mortal. Aside from God’s promise to resurrect us, we have no life everlasting.

BODY = H6106

עֶצֶם​
‛etsem

eh'-tsem

From H6105; a bone (as strong); by extension the body; figuratively the substance, that is, (as pronoun) selfsame: - body, bone, X life, (self-) same, strength, X very.


BODY = G4983

σῶμα

sōma

so'-mah

From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.


SOUL=H5315

נֶפֶש​
nephesh

neh'-fesh

From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

SOUL=G5590

ψυχή

psuchē

psoo-khay'

From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

SPIRIT = H7307
רוּחַ​

rûach

roo'-akh

From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).


SPIRIT = G4151

πνεῦμα

pneuma

pnyoo'-mah

From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.



Mortalism

Thomson (2008), Bodies of thought: science, religion, and the soul in the early Enlightenment, p. 42, For mortalists the Bible did not teach the existence of a separate immaterial or immortal soul and the word 'soul' simply meant 'life'; the doctrine of a separate soul was said to be a Platonic importation..

Kries 1997, p. 97: ‘In Leviathan, soul and body are one; there are no "separated essenses" [sic]; death means complete death – the soul, merely another word for life, or breath, ceases at the death of the body. This view of the soul is known as Christian mortalism – a heterodox view held, indeed, by some sincere believers and not unique to Hobbes.’

Hick (1994), Death and eternal life, p. 211, christian mortalism – the view that the soul either sleeps until the Day of Judgment, or is annihilated and re-created.

Fudge & Peterson 2000, p. 173 -1: ‘the belief that according to divine revelation the soul does not exist as an independent substance after the death of the body’

Almond 1994, p. 38: …‘mortalist views – particularly of the sort which affirmed that the soul slept or died – were widespread in the Reformation period. George Williams has shown how prevalent mortalism was among the Reformation radicals.’
We have been led astray by saying the soul is anything more than our body and the breath of life.

It gets confusing because Jesus sometimes refers to the spirit as our souls. Jesus exhorted His hearers: “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both the soul and the body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).

Jesus was comparing destroying the spirit (He called the soul) and body.

So it is like saying spirit (immortal-Holy Spirit) other spirit (mortal-breath of life-animal) and body. This is interesting: Matt. 10:28 just compared soul-5590 (psuchē) to body-4983. While Thessalonians is speaking of an immortal spirit, which is seeded by the Holy Spirit. That is my take, anyway.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I would also add that God is not the God of the dead, he is the God of the living.

Those who are in Christ do not experience cessation of existence.

Since God is the God of the living, they were currently conscious and not dead.

Luke 20
27There came to him some Sadducees, those who deny that there is a resurrection, 28and they asked him a question, saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies, having a wife but no children, the manf must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife, and died without children. 30And the second 31and the third took her, and likewise all seven left no children and died. 32Afterward the woman also died. 33In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife will the woman be? For the seven had her as wife.”
34And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.39Then some of the scribes answered, “Teacher, you have spoken well.” 40For they no longer dared to ask him any question.

Mark 12
18And Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection. And they asked him a question, saying, 19“Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the mane must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 20There were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and when he died left no offspring. 21And the second took her, and died, leaving no offspring. And the third likewise. 22And the seven left no offspring. Last of all the woman also died. 23In the resurrection, when they rise again, whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife.”
24Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.”


Mark 12:26 12:26–27 Citing the OT “Scriptures,” Jesus explains the full “power of God” when it comes to the dead being raised. Exodus 3:6 cannot mean that God makes himself known to Moses as the God of the dead. Rather, as the God of Abraham . . . Isaac, and . . . Jacob (i.e., the faithful, covenant-keeping God), he is the God of the living (Ex. 3:15–16; 4:5). Abraham therefore continues to exist and to enjoy the blessings of God's covenant (cf. Rom. 8:35–39), and hence will also be raised from the dead.
(ESV SB Notes)

Mark 12:26 Mark 12:26 book of Moses. The Pentateuch—the first five books of the OT. Jesus appealed to the only Scriptures the Sadducees held as completely authoritative. passage about the bush. A reference to Ex. 3:1–4:17 where God first appeared to Moses at the bush. how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am.’ By keying on the emphatic present tense of Ex. 3:6, “I am . . . the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob,” Jesus was underscoring the personal and perpetual covenantal relationship God established with the three patriarchs. Even though all three were dead when God spoke to Moses, God was still their God just as much as when they were alive on earth—and more so in that they were experiencing eternal fellowship with him in heaven (see note on Matt. 22:32).
(MacArthur Study Notes (ESV))

Matthew 22:23 If God in the time of Moses speaks of himself as the God of the patriarchs, they must be alive, because “he is not the God of the dead but of the living” (Matt 22:31).
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)
 

Ahwatukee

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So do you believe in soul sleep then?
Good day Lucy!

I do not believe in Soul-Sleep at all, as it is a false teaching. With all of the scriptures that reveal the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body for both the righteous and the wicked, I don't see how anyone could rightly believe in it.

The reference to the dead "sleeping" is referring to the body only, not the spirit. For scripture (2 Cor.5:6, Phil.1:21-23, Rev.6:9-11) demonstrates that for those in Christ, once the body dies the spirit departs and goes immediately to be in the presence of Christ. It is important that we consider all scriptures on any given Biblical subject when forming a conclusion. Unfortunately, what many do is adopt the false teachings of men and instead of using all scripture to form a conclusion, they fight tooth and nail to support the false teaching and provide false apologetics in order to circumvent and or distort those other scriptures that support the opposite.

In Luke 23:42, we have the man who was crucified next to Jesus and who said, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." The man was basically confessing Christ. Jesus' reply to him was "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." How could Jesus make that promise to that man when both died that very same day? Jesus was speaking in regards to their spirits which would depart from their bodies at the time of death, where I believe they went down into that same place in Sheol/Hades where Abraham and Lazarus were, which Abraham called a place of comfort, i.e. paradise. According to the teaching of soul-sleep, the bodies and spirits of both Jesus and the man would have been in a state of unconscious sleep and therefore, Jesus promise of them being in paradise that same day could not have been fulfilled. The sad apologetic that these false teachers came up with in order to circumvent the this truth is that they claim that the comma is in the wrong place, as demonstrated below:

Scripture: "And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Fales apologetic: "And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

The original scripture puts the focus on both Jesus and the thief as being in paradise that very day. While the moving of the comma in the false apologetic puts the focus on what day Jesus told Him this information and thereby getting rid of the fact that their spirits would be in paradise that very day. This is the kinds of nonsense that these people do. They are false believers which have infiltrated Christianity and are always distorting the word of God.

As another proof of the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body, we have Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus on the mountain where the Lord was transfigured into His glorified state and were talking with Jesus about His departure, i.e. His death in Jerusalem. If soul-sleep were true, how could they appear before Jesus? How could Samuel, who was called up from Sheol, speak with Saul? How could all of those under the altar in heaven who will have been killed by those on the earth have a conversation with the Lord and receive white robes? How could Stephen say when He was about to die, "Lord, receive my Spirit?" How could the rich man and Lazarus of whom scripture says both had died, be conscious and aware in sheol/Hades, one in a place of comfort and one in torment in flames? Both would have to be conscious and aware to experience both states. Not to mention the fact that Abraham was also there. But as I said, instead of taking these truths into consideration, instead they use existing false apologetics for each one or they create new ones.

Soul-sleep is just another of the myriads of false teachings that have crept into the church by false teachers and those who carry those teachings forward. We are told in scripture that this would happen and it has and continues.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves."

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I see you can copy and paste other's research material. I do most of my own research and weigh other's into it. In the quote below is my word search on your three parts of our makeup.



We have been led astray by saying the soul is anything more than our body and the breath of life.

It gets confusing because Jesus sometimes refers to the spirit as our souls. Jesus exhorted His hearers: “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both the soul and the body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).

Jesus was comparing destroying the spirit (He called the soul) and body.

So it is like saying spirit (immortal-Holy Spirit) other spirit (mortal-breath of life-animal) and body. This is interesting: Matt. 10:28 just compared soul-5590 (psuchē) to body-4983. While Thessalonians is speaking of an immortal spirit, which is seeded by the Holy Spirit. That is my take, anyway.
I don't agree..and it looks like from your website that you've had influences from Hebrew Roots people or Messianic Jews.

Either group is susceptible to influences from Seventh Day Adventists or Armstrongites.

By the way, I was an Armstrongite so I know where you are coming from. I simply don't agree with it.

And, I believe soul-sleep and annihilationism commonly go hand-in-hand, and the groups which teach such things also add many other bad doctrines to their teachings.

By the way, I use others' quotes when I am too lazy to reinvent the wheel. If I already agree with their position, why should I recreate the explanation in my own form, especially when they provide helpful cross references?

If you are claiming I'm some kind of blind follower of Christianity, you are wrong. I was a Judaizer who belonged to a cult. I re-examined their doctrinal teachings and came to better conclusions that are more aligned with Christianity.

And, I am much more distrustful of Judaizers than any other people. I have found evangelical Reformed Christians to be much more credible.
 
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UntiedWithChrist,

More aligned with Christianity?

Wouldn't you want to be inline with Christianity totally?

I would recommend spending your reading time, in regards to God, on the Bible alone.

That would give you a better opportunity to be exactly inline with scriptural Christianity.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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UntiedWithChrist,

More aligned with Christianity?

Wouldn't you want to be inline with Christianity totally?

I would recommend spending your reading time, in regards to God, on the Bible alone.

That would give you a better opportunity to be exactly inline with scriptural Christianity.
You have been a Christian since 2008, and I have been one since 1985.

And, I have studied the Bible extensively alone.

However, I am not prideful and realize the value in the observations of other brothers and church history, particularly those who are older than me, and have focused on a particular topic.

I find that cultists and church rebels disdain both of these sources of information....at least theoretically. When you probe them, eventually you find out that a lot of them are involved in cults.

Cults seem convincing on a surface level, and can fool the inexperienced, but once their positions are examined using careful Scriptural hermeneutics, they fall apart.
 
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You have been a Christian since 2008, and I have been one since 1985.
Okay, you should know that this is totally irrelevant.

And, I have studied the Bible extensively alone.
"Have" is past tense.

Do you still do this?
However, I am not prideful and realize the value in the observations of other brothers and church history, particularly those who are older than me, and have focused on a particular topic.
I am not prideful either and do value the observations of the brethren, but only when they are scripturaly sound.

And age is also irrelevant (see Elihu in the book of Job 32:6).

I did not mean to offend you.

I find that cultists and church rebels disdain both of these sources of information...
I stay away from extra biblical material for this very reason, to stay away from cults. That's how I didn't get sucked into the Jehovah's Witnesses by other family members of mine.

Hey, JW's use hermeneutics as well, not sure what the point of that was.
 

Deade

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I would also add that God is not the God of the dead, he is the God of the living.

Those who are in Christ do not experience cessation of existence.

Since God is the God of the living, they were currently conscious and not dead.
Yes, in their consciousness when they die it is like the day of the resurrection. Also in God's eyes, we have life everlasting as He is speaking from the future. I do not believe in a bodily existence in the Kingdom of God. I believe God is Spirit (John 4:24) and we will be just like Him in the Kingdom (see 1 John 3:2). He has taken on a body to eat and visit Abraham on the plains of Mamre, but He does not need one. How else can He be in the midst of us and we not see Him.

No, it all has to fit together or we must throw everything out. You can tiptoe through TULIP with the rest of the Calvinists if you like. I am taught by God and I will share what I have been taught from the rooftops.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Okay, you should know that this is totally irrelevant.



"Have" is past tense.

Do you still do this?


I am not prideful either and do value the observations of the brethren, but only when they are scripturaly sound.

And age is also irrelevant (see Elihu in the book of Job 32:6).

I did not mean to offend you.



I stay away from extra biblical material for this very reason, to stay away from cults. That's how I didn't get sucked into the Jehovah's Witnesses by other family members of mine.

Hey, JW's use hermeneutics as well, not sure what the point of that was.
What does Christianity teach about respecting one's elders?

Seems like young believers, who know so much about the Bible, forget things like that.

And, I am not subject to your interrogations.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Yes, in their consciousness when they die it is like the day of the resurrection. Also in God's eyes, we have life everlasting as He is speaking from the future. I do not believe in a bodily existence in the Kingdom of God. I believe God is Spirit (John 4:24) and we will be just like Him in the Kingdom (see 1 John 3:2). He has taken on a body to eat and visit Abraham on the plains of Mamre, but He does not need one. How else can He be in the midst of us and we not see Him.

No, it all has to fit together or we must throw everything out. You can tiptoe through TULIP with the rest of the Calvinists if you like. I am taught by God and I will share what I have been taught from the rooftops.
You are using I John 3:2 out of context.

1 John 3:2 is teaching that the believer will be like Christ, in the sense of his glorified humanity.

The bodily resurrection is a core teaching of Christianity, and you are in essence denying it.

It sounds to me like you've been exposed to Herbert Armstrong's teaching.

Man does not become God, like he claimed. He is to reflect the image of God in the material world.

Armstrong's teaching was nothing but blasphemy. A man claiming that he will be God is simply blasphemy.

Actually I believed his nonsense for ten years.
 
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What does Christianity teach about respecting one's elders?
You are right on this point.

But I cannot tell if you are older than me in age or in the faith only.

If in age, then I will be sure to address you in manner that shows elder's respect.

1 Timothy 5:1
Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren.

Much love.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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You are right on this point.

But I cannot tell if you are older than me in age or in the faith only.

If in age, then I will be sure to address you in manner that shows elder's respect.

1 Timothy 5:1
Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren.

Much love.
You won't have to worry about it.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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As I have noted, this issue of soul-sleep does not stand alone in a person's theology.

If you find a nut on a nut tree, and you shake it hard enough, you are going to find other nuts falling down around you.

Possible other nuts:

1. annihilationism
2. Seventh Day Adventist teachings
3. Armstrongite teachings
4. Hebrew Roots teachings
5. Messianic Jew teachings
6. Restoration movement teachings (JWs, etcetera)

I speak from experience. I am a second generation Armstrongite.

And, I detect some of these things from individuals on this thread.

For example, one guy claiming he will be "just like God" in the Kingdom.

This is an Armstrongite teaching. He may not be an Armstrongite, but he has apparently adopted this false teaching. Armstrongites literally believe they will be God, in the same sense as the Father and the Son.

This is a blasphemous teaching. It is true that the resurrected believer will be like Christ, in terms of his glorified humanity, but not in terms of his deity. Man was created to display the image of God in the material world, not to become God.

Unfortunately, I believed blasphemy like this myself as an Armstrongite. It's actually very shameful to claim you will become like God, and the heighth of arrogancy. God alone is uncreated, unique, and worthy of worship.

Yet, some of these guys actually teach they are going to be a God on their own planet ruling over humans. Some claim that they may be required to die like Jesus on the Cross.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Good day Lucy!

I do not believe in Soul-Sleep at all, as it is a false teaching. With all of the scriptures that reveal the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body for both the righteous and the wicked, I don't see how anyone could rightly believe in it.

The reference to the dead "sleeping" is referring to the body only, not the spirit. For scripture (2 Cor.5:6, Phil.1:21-23, Rev.6:9-11) demonstrates that for those in Christ, once the body dies the spirit departs and goes immediately to be in the presence of Christ. It is important that we consider all scriptures on any given Biblical subject when forming a conclusion. Unfortunately, what many do is adopt the false teachings of men and instead of using all scripture to form a conclusion, they fight tooth and nail to support the false teaching and provide false apologetics in order to circumvent and or distort those other scriptures that support the opposite.

In Luke 23:42, we have the man who was crucified next to Jesus and who said, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." The man was basically confessing Christ. Jesus' reply to him was "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." How could Jesus make that promise to that man when both died that very same day? Jesus was speaking in regards to their spirits which would depart from their bodies at the time of death, where I believe they went down into that same place in Sheol/Hades where Abraham and Lazarus were, which Abraham called a place of comfort, i.e. paradise. According to the teaching of soul-sleep, the bodies and spirits of both Jesus and the man would have been in a state of unconscious sleep and therefore, Jesus promise of them being in paradise that same day could not have been fulfilled. The sad apologetic that these false teachers came up with in order to circumvent the this truth is that they claim that the comma is in the wrong place, as demonstrated below:

Scripture: "And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Fales apologetic: "And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

The original scripture puts the focus on both Jesus and the thief as being in paradise that very day. While the moving of the comma in the false apologetic puts the focus on what day Jesus told Him this information and thereby getting rid of the fact that their spirits would be in paradise that very day. This is the kinds of nonsense that these people do. They are false believers which have infiltrated Christianity and are always distorting the word of God.

As another proof of the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body, we have Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus on the mountain where the Lord was transfigured into His glorified state and were talking with Jesus about His departure, i.e. His death in Jerusalem. If soul-sleep were true, how could they appear before Jesus? How could Samuel, who was called up from Sheol, speak with Saul? How could all of those under the altar in heaven who will have been killed by those on the earth have a conversation with the Lord and receive white robes? How could Stephen say when He was about to die, "Lord, receive my Spirit?" How could the rich man and Lazarus of whom scripture says both had died, be conscious and aware in sheol/Hades, one in a place of comfort and one in torment in flames? Both would have to be conscious and aware to experience both states. Not to mention the fact that Abraham was also there. But as I said, instead of taking these truths into consideration, instead they use existing false apologetics for each one or they create new ones.

Soul-sleep is just another of the myriads of false teachings that have crept into the church by false teachers and those who carry those teachings forward. We are told in scripture that this would happen and it has and continues.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves."

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Hiya Ahwatukee,
I don't believe in soul sleep so you're preaching to the choir.
So to speak.

I wondered what you thought because you're like a sentinel of the pre-trib rapture theory. And it seems to me like the idea of soul sleep fits in with with what I hear from pre-tribulation rapture teachers. Obviously I was wrong.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Yes, in their consciousness when they die it is like the day of the resurrection. Also in God's eyes, we have life everlasting as He is speaking from the future. I do not believe in a bodily existence in the Kingdom of God. I believe God is Spirit (John 4:24) and we will be just like Him in the Kingdom (see 1 John 3:2). He has taken on a body to eat and visit Abraham on the plains of Mamre, but He does not need one. How else can He be in the midst of us and we not see Him.

No, it all has to fit together or we must throw everything out. You can tiptoe through TULIP with the rest of the Calvinists if you like. I am taught by God and I will share what I have been taught from the rooftops.
It would be interesting to know whether you got your doctrines from Herbert Armstrong or his disciples.

I don't know if I'd believe you if you said no. There's so much correspondence, especially if you are claiming that believers will become God in an ontological sense (ie, if you are saying that believers are literal children of God and not adoptive children of God).

By the way, folks can make claims that they were taught directly by God, when in reality they read literature or watched videos from these groups and simply won't acknowledge it. They may have read the materials alongside their Bible, but didn't carefully evaluate the teachings IN CONTEXT. I find that a lot of cultic groups simply quote Scripture out of context, and then say "don't believe me, believe your Bible".

In reality, though, they are "collapsing the context" and using the Bible in a disingenuous manner.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
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Yes, in their consciousness when they die it is like the day of the resurrection. Also in God's eyes, we have life everlasting as He is speaking from the future. I do not believe in a bodily existence in the Kingdom of God. I believe God is Spirit (John 4:24) and we will be just like Him in the Kingdom (see 1 John 3:2). He has taken on a body to eat and visit Abraham on the plains of Mamre, but He does not need one. How else can He be in the midst of us and we not see Him.

No, it all has to fit together or we must throw everything out. You can tiptoe through TULIP with the rest of the Calvinists if you like. I am taught by God and I will share what I have been taught from the rooftops.
As I have said, you guys with your alternate theologies learned them from someone else, because there's too much correspondence with false teachers that I know. You can boldly proclaim that you are some kind of independent, valiant defender of the truth, but I can see the earmarks of other teachers in your words.

In fact, if I was a betting man, I'd bet 1000 bucks that you have read Herbert Armstrong's booklets, or watched his shows, or read similar materials from one of his disciples.

And, if you told me haven't, I wouldn't believe you.
 

Deade

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As I have said, you guys with your alternate theologies learned them from someone else, because there's too much correspondence with false teachers that I know. You can boldly proclaim that you are some kind of independent, valiant defender of the truth, but I can see the earmarks of other teachers in your words.

In fact, if I was a betting man, I'd bet 1000 bucks that you have read Herbert Armstrong's booklets, or watched his shows, or read similar materials from one of his disciples.

And, if you told me haven't, I wouldn't believe you.
Look, I have never claimed to not be influenced by other teachings. I have just said I don't discard them simply because of their source. Yes, I have read most of what Armstrong wrote and agree with a lot and disagree with as about as much. The same goes for the SDA and the COG 7th-Day. I mainly fellowship with the last group mentioned.

Some hard held things I strongly fight over I feel directly taught by the HS. In my bio, I emphasized how the HS dealt with me on self defense. I doubt anyone will get anywhere arguing with me on that because of how strongly the HS presented it. Other things are not so strongly held.

The bottom line for me is I don't want to believe my errors plus someone else's errors just because I blindly followed them. It is time to inspect our traditional teachings and come to a God ordered truth. I take a hard stand on the Reformers because I see all the errors they bought into. Just look at the naming of their churches, and the veneration of certain saints. That rubs so wrong with everything I read in the Bible. If you don't see it, I feel for you. 4-scratch-chin.gif