Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Dave-L]

Well then if we are going to be just spirits with no physical bodies then why shall we need the following?

Revelation 22: KJV
1"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. {2} In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

This is right at the end of the Bible.. the Last chapter of the Bible and the last judgement has happned and we are living in the New Jerusalem and in it there is the tree of life and trees that have leaves we will be consuming to heal us.. Why will we need healing? Why will we need access to the Tree of Life??? Because we shall be living beings living on a New Physical earth..

The nations in the New Heaven and earth. Nations of the world are destroyed by fire on the last day. Nations = ethnos = gentiles not jus Jews.

 

[Dave-L]

Nope. Jesus often spoke of both. They will both be realized at the second coming of the Lord. The physical, earthly kingdom, the restoration of the kingdom of Israel, is promised to the nation of Israel. It's a physical deliverance from their enemies so they can worship God without fear. The rightful king will be sitting on the physical throne of David. This is not a spiritual throne.

Jesus didn't rebuke the disciples for such a question for it's going to happen.

Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Plus, you didn't address the physical salvation promised in Luke 1.

But they are interchangeable terms in the NT.

Jesus says Israel is restored on the last day in the resurrection (restoration) of believers (Israel) from the dead.

 

[Sipsey]

“The Church is Israel.” <——. That false assumption is where your thinking runs off the rails.

 

[Dave-L]

“The Church is Israel.” <——. That false assumption is where your thinking runs off the rails.

Jesus is Israel = Abraham's Seed (singular) according to Paul. Along with those who believe in him according to Paul. Matthew endorses this too. When Christ abolished circumcision, nothing remained to make one a physical member of Israel.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Of all the things that are written in the new testament letters, why is it that not one of them go into detail about such a vital doctrine regarding the differences of the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven? Especially if a believer can go so easily into error without this very important teaching.

The book of Hebrews, for example, goes into great detail on the doctrine of Christ fulfilling the the old testament types and similitudes.

The only way of getting the vital teaching on the kingdoms being different is from outside the Bible, or from assuming things out of what is written in the scripture.

 

[John146]

This is not true. To prove your point you need to find at least one physical kingdom reference in the gospels or epistles. Physical kingdoms can not be ruled over forever and ever. They are destroyed by fire on the last day.

Are you saying Revelation 11 is not true? How do you interpret this passage?

 

[John146]

But they are interchangeable terms in the NT.

Jesus says Israel is restored on the last day in the resurrection (restoration) of believers (Israel) from the dead.

Replacement theology at its' best.

 

[John146]

But they are interchangeable terms in the NT.

Jesus says Israel is restored on the last day in the resurrection (restoration) of believers (Israel) from the dead.

The Kingdom of Heaven is a physical kingdom that will take place on earth and consists of violence. Remember that the earth is in the heaven(Genesis 1:14-16). It is obvious that the kingdom of heaven is not a spiritual kingdom but physical.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

The first place where the Kingdom of Heaven is mentioned is where John the Baptist was preaching about the the fulfillment of Isaiah 40. John was preaching about the Kingdom of Jesus Christ on this earth. Other Old Testament prophecies also reveal that the Kingdom of Heaven was physical. Read Genesis 49:10; Isaiah 2:1-5, 49:5-13; Psalms 2; Jeremiah 23:5 and Luke 1:30-33.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Read Genesis 49:10; Isaiah 2:1-5, 49:5-13; Psalms 2; Jeremiah 23:5 and Luke 1:30-33.

Did you learn this doctrine from independent study of the Bible?

Or did others tell you about it?

Because I have been reading the Bible constantly start to finish for over a decade now, and the first time I was made aware that there was a difference between the two kingdoms came from non biblical sources.

And when I was made aware of it, I could not confirm it in scripture in subsequent readings.

You have to use assumption for this doctrine to work along with believing other false doctrines in order for this teaching to appear true.

 

[Dave-L]

The Kingdom of Heaven is a physical kingdom that will take place on earth and consists of violence. Remember that the earth is in the heaven(Genesis 1:14-16). It is obvious that the kingdom of heaven is not a spiritual kingdom but physical.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

The first place where the Kingdom of Heaven is mentioned is where John the Baptist was preaching about the the fulfillment of Isaiah 40. John was preaching about the Kingdom of Jesus Christ on this earth. Other Old Testament prophecies also reveal that the Kingdom of Heaven was physical. Read Genesis 49:10; Isaiah 2:1-5, 49:5-13; Psalms 2; Jeremiah 23:5 and Luke 1:30-33.

There is no millennium. It is a Pharisee doctrine Jesus refuted every time he presented the Kingdom as spiritual. The Council of Ephesus condemned premillennialism as heresy in 431.

 

[Dave-L]

Replacement theology at its' best.

You are replacing biblical Israel with the unbelievers Christ removed from Israel.

 

[John146]

Did you learn this doctrine from independent study of the Bible?

Or did others tell you about it?

Because I have been reading the Bible constantly start to finish for over a decade now, and the first time I was made aware that there was a difference between the two kingdoms came from non biblical sources.

And when I was made aware of it, I could not confirm it in scripture in subsequent readings.

You have to use assumption for this doctrine to work along with believing other false doctrines in order for this teaching to appear true.

Simply put, the word heaven is not the same as the word God. God is spiritual and heaven is a physical place.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Thus, the kingdom of God is spiritual, and the kingdom of heaven is physical.

 

[John146]

There is no millennium. It is a Pharisee doctrine Jesus refuted every time he presented the Kingdom as spiritual. The Council of Ephesus condemned premillennialism as heresy in 431.

How do you privately interpret the following Revelation passages:

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

[Dave-L]

Are you saying Revelation 11 is not true? How do you interpret this passage?

The scope of Revelation 11 exceeds the amount of room available to cover it adequately. Maybe ask "what about this or that" taken from its context.

 

[Dave-L]

How do you privately interpret the following Revelation passages:

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Notice Satan attacks the kingdom after the 1000 years end. = the 1000 years are not the kingdom.

 

[John146]

You are replacing biblical Israel with the unbelievers Christ removed from Israel.

The biblical Israel is God's physical people made up of the twelve tribes of Israel. The spiritual Israel are believers in Christ, part of the spiritual seed.

The physical people Israel have physical blessings promised by God including land. The spiritual Israel have promises of spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ.

 

[Dave-L]

The biblical Israel is God's physical people made up of the twelve tribes of Israel. The spiritual Israel are believers in Christ, part of the spiritual seed.

The physical people Israel have physical blessings promised by God including land. The spiritual Israel have promises of spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ.

God abolished circumcision leaving nothing to make one a physical member of Israel.

 

[John146]

Notice Satan attacks the kingdom after the 1000 years end. = the 1000 years are not the kingdom.

Christ is reigning for those thousand years from Jerusalem, the throne of David. It's physical. Satan attacks the physical kingdom.

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. PHYSICAL
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. A PHYSICAL ATTACK

 

[garee]

I believe every eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They claim the Kingdom of God is physical and not spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes some Amillennialists, all Postmillennialists, and all Premillennialists who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years.

But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting. Not merely 1000 years long. That it would be while David is buried, before the resurrection on the last day.

“And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

Some Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but err by saying it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.

The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. A sort of "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.

Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns. A Christianized Taliban of sorts.

But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.

I would agree we walk by faith the eternal not seen.

Right from the beginning it seems the Holy Spirit knew there would be much confusion so he set the standard for searching out His word .We are informed in the first verse that not only is it "inspired" but also "signified". Taking the literal things seen the temporal and using them to give the unseen, eternal "signified" interpretation. Using the 2 Corinthian 4:18 prescription for rightly dividing the parable (Revelation 20)

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The Amil. . . not literal years seems to work the best it fits in with the rest of the metaphors in that parable .

 

[John146]

God abolished circumcision leaving nothing to make one a physical member of Israel.

God abolished circumcision for the Church, the body of Christ. When the body of Christ is caught up, the Lord turns His attention back Israel, God's physical people.