Are denominations evil?

[UnitedWithChrist]

I have noticed over the years the Reformed today are lacking when it comes to evangelizing the lost but they sure shine at making converts to Calvinism...unlike Whitefield, Bunyan and Spurgeon.

By the way, perhaps you don't even know which evangelists are Reformed.

There are a lot of Reformed evangelists out there.

They may not be the ones who need a cameraman so that they can take their escapades to Youtube and brag about them like synergists, though. Some of those guys can't even do street ministry without someone to record their escapades. They could be more about bragging rights or getting sponsor dollars.

Some may not even get into details about their specific theology regarding salvation, either.

No....I think the real issue is this....you can't defend yourself against my criticism of dispensationalists, so you are going to throw stereotypical insults regarding Reformed theology my way.

OK. Those stereotypes have been around for hundreds of years. I realize that non-Reformed people don't put a lot of effort into understanding the details of Christianity, so they feel threatened by us. Therefore, boasting about evangelistic prowess is one way to slam us.

Well, first I would ask whether the evangelist can even articulate the principles of the gospel, because in reality many synergists hold a false gospel, and they produce false converts. I don't think Reformed people do this. They know the book of Romans is their template for evangelizing, and they don't shy away from talking about the wrath of God against sinners, the role of the law in salvation, original sin, the need for regeneration, union with Christ, justification, sanctification and glorification.

Non-Reformed people generally have a half-baked gospel that doesn't include all the ingredients of a sound explanation. So, even if there are five times as many out on the streets, only one out of the five is coherent enough to present the gospel to someone in a sound manner. And, if they are dispensationalists, they may start talking about prophecy and never get around to explaining the gospel anyways.

 

[crossnote]

Because non-Reformed people did everything they could to hinder my ministry. KJV Onlyists, charismatics, and non-Reformed prophecy nuts within the chaplain staff didn't like my straightforward presentation of the gospel. And, they didn't want me talking about eternal security, because they believe the prisoners would sin if they were told their salvation was secure if the person is a real believer. They hindered me in every way they could. I believe that the jail staff also had Christians who disagreed with my theology and harrassed me concerning giving good materials to people. I intend to get back into it in some manner.

Blaming others is not a mark of serving God.

 

[crossnote]

That makes no sense.

The Church is true Israel because they have been united with Christ in faith.

I am not sure if you would understand the concept of union with Christ, though. I don't think many dispensationalists understand what union with Christ means, or they would not be dispensationalists.

If a person is united with faith, they possess Jesus' righteousness, as well as his inheritance. They are not cursed because of Christ's perfect obedience, which is credited to them due to their oneness with Christ.

I learned the concept of union with Christ my second year as a Christian. That was 45 years ago. Enough with the condescending remarks already.

 

[crossnote]

I have no clue what you are saying.

Read the whole chapter. It says that Jews and Gentiles are united in Christ, and that the real believers are the commonwealth of Israel.

Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

In Rom 11,nPaul makes a distinction between the natural branches (believing Jews) and grafted in branches.God will one day once again deal directly with the unbelieving Jews...

Romans 11:24-25,27-28 KJVS
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? [25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[crossnote]

By the way, perhaps you don't even know which evangelists are Reformed.

There are a lot of Reformed evangelists out there.

They may not be the ones who need a cameraman so that they can take their escapades to Youtube and brag about them like synergists, though. Some of those guys can't even do street ministry without someone to record their escapades. They could be more about bragging rights or getting sponsor dollars.

Some may not even get into details about their specific theology regarding salvation, either.

No....I think the real issue is this....you can't defend yourself against my criticism of dispensationalists, so you are going to throw stereotypical insults regarding Reformed theology my way.

OK. Those stereotypes have been around for hundreds of years. I realize that non-Reformed people don't put a lot of effort into understanding the details of Christianity, so they feel threatened by us. Therefore, boasting about evangelistic prowess is one way to slam us.

Well, first I would ask whether the evangelist can even articulate the principles of the gospel, because in reality many synergists hold a false gospel, and they produce false converts. I don't think Reformed people do this. They know the book of Romans is their template for evangelizing, and they don't shy away from talking about the wrath of God against sinners, the role of the law in salvation, original sin, the need for regeneration, union with Christ, justification, sanctification and glorification.

Non-Reformed people generally have a half-baked gospel that doesn't include all the ingredients of a sound explanation. So, even if there are five times as many out on the streets, only one out of the five is coherent enough to present the gospel to someone in a sound manner. And, if they are dispensationalists, they may start talking about prophecy and never get around to explaining the gospel anyways.

I never said I agree with the Arminian synergistic model. Did you know that the early dispensationalists were of a reformed persuasion? Your categories are a bit naive painted with a broad brush. It would be like me asking you 'what State Church do you identify with through your infant baptism?' (What State Church doesn't baptize infants?) When I first attended Reformed Churches back in the '90's the first question we were often asked was 'what is your last name?' they had apostasied so far, their nationality was of prime importance as they had lost the concept of the new birth.
I could go on and on but it isn't worth it. We all stand or fall before the Lord as individuals, not as Reformed, Methodists, RCs, Baptists etc.

 

[Deade]

I voted they are evil, although I don't really fit your debate I think they are evil for different reasons, I am not moved by fundamentalism. They are also unavoidable, because people are people. Looks like you already made up your mind and have ideas you want to promote and are not really asking a question, so I won't elaborate.

Denominations cannot be evil, but they can be run by evil people. All people are evil (at least predisposed). Our questions about when the false teachings came about, should first be addressed. Jesus' disciples were viewed a cult and I am sure they still would be by most.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Blaming others is not a mark of serving God.

It's simply the truth. I asked the guards to give an ESV Bible to a prisoner from the 2 dozen I donated to the jail library. He said no, and indicated that the chaplain told them not to.

The KJV Only chaplain.

These sorts of nuts want ill-educated prisoners to read the KJV, when they can barely read modern English.

Others told them not to read the books that I donated because "that's theology" and their problem was that they were trying to read my books.

That's the sort of nonsense non-Reformed, KJV Only charismatics teach.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I learned the concept of union with Christ my second year as a Christian. That was 45 years ago. Enough with the condescending remarks already.

Maybe you're the exception.

Explain the concept to me.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

In Rom 11,nPaul makes a distinction between the natural branches (believing Jews) and grafted in branches.God will one day once again deal directly with the unbelieving Jews...

Romans 11:24-25,27-28 KJVS
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? [25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

I don't have a problem with a future, effective evangelistic effort toward Jews.

In fact, I think that's going to happen.

That doesn't prove dispensationalism OR millennialism.

It proves God is going to save a large number of Jews just prior to Jesus' return.

That can all fit within amillennialism.

True Israel is the people of God, and those are composed both of Jews and Gentiles..primarily Jews prior to the resurrection.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I never said I agree with the Arminian synergistic model. Did you know that the early dispensationalists were of a reformed persuasion? Your categories are a bit naive painted with a broad brush. It would be like me asking you 'what State Church do you identify with through your infant baptism?' (What State Church doesn't baptize infants?) When I first attended Reformed Churches back in the '90's the first question we were often asked was 'what is your last name?' they had apostasied so far, their nationality was of prime importance as they had lost the concept of the new birth.
I could go on and on but it isn't worth it. We all stand or fall before the Lord as individuals, not as Reformed, Methodists, RCs, Baptists etc.

I doubt the truthfulness of your claim concerning last names, unless you were dealing with some radical group. I have never been asked that by a Reformed person.

And, most dispensationalists are not truly Reformed. John MacArthur is.

Many from DTS are NOT. Norm Geisler is NOT.

They camouflage as "modified Reformed" but they are not Reformed. I finally figured that from being around a bunch of guys who claimed to be Reformed, but in reality rejected God's unconditional election.

Ask them if they believe in limited atonement. If they say no, they are NOT Reformed of ANY TYPE.

They may be one point Arminians who acknowledge eternal security. They do not believe in biblical regeneration, which precedes faith, because that would imply that God elects, predestines, sanctifies, and glorifies every single individual he chooses to save.

And his choice was based on total grace. It was not based on his foreknowledge of their decision to accept him. This is NOT Reformed theology.

 

[Nehemiah6]

And, most dispensationalists are not truly Reformed. John MacArthur is.

MacArthur cannot be both Reformed and a Dispensationalist without some serious problems in his theology. But you should focus on your own serious problems.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Blaming others is not a mark of serving God.

By the way, I don't necessarily "blame" them. I decided to serve God in a different way.

And you didn't answer my question...how many people have you witnessed to in the last five years?

As I indicated, I am guessing about 300 for me. I gave Christian books to about 180 different people, and gave multiple books to some. I spoke to twice that many people, as about half don't request books.

By the way, my current ministry is giving study Bibles to Reformed Filipinos, or those being evangelized by them. Why? Because if I give them a Bible, I know they can use them, and they won't be locked away in some jail library. And, helping Filipinos is better than dealing with criminals, some of whom molested little children who trusted them. The last evening I was there, besides being verbally assaulted by two different corrections officers over issues relating to Christian books, I had to listen to the demonic, blasphemous rants of a child molester. That was enough for me.

Fellow chaplains didn't care for my teaching, because it hindered their KJV Only, charismatic, prophecy nut stuff when prisoners asked me what I thought about their claims. Guards didn't like it, because I was giving books to prisoners through Amazon and cultists didn't like books being given to potential believers, and they weren't getting cultic or world religion stuff, and complained about it. Some prisoners didn't like me because I wasn't shallow enough for them (although many others liked me because I explained the text well).

Anyways, feel free to criticize me. I don't really care. I just do what I do and hope it has a positive effect. I love being involved with the Filipinos because they are my own people, in terms of caring about Scripture and believing in God's sovereignty. Best to put good materials in the hands of guys like them than hardened criminals who have already heard some kind of gospel multiple times, even if it is some Arminian trash gospel.

 

[Nehemiah6]

...They do not believe in biblical regeneration, which precedes faith...

This is what I mean. You are now CONTRADICTING Scripture and Gospel truth by putting the cart before the horse. But unless you did that you could not hold on to the false teachings of Five Point Calvinism. And they are like dominoes. If one falls, they all fall down.

 

[crossnote]

By the way, I don't necessarily "blame" them. I decided to serve God in a different way.

And you didn't answer my question...how many people have you witnessed to in the last five years?

As I indicated, I am guessing about 300 for me. I gave Christian books to about 180 different people, and gave multiple books to some. I spoke to twice that many people, as about half don't request books.

Besides blaming others, bragging is not becoming of His servants either ...it reveals immaturity.