Whatever Happened to the Ten Commandments?

Chester · Feb 26, 2020

oh not this again

I guess some people really do not know

as Christians, we KNOW we cannot go around sinning and therefore make every effort to please God which would include understanding the law of God now written on our hearts

but no. the urge to prove some Christians are not as good as the originator of such constant and abusive op's and must needs hear it again, that our narrow world view is guided by, hemmed in and locked in place with only a window too high to look out of (forgive the run on sentence...or not...I don't care) is just irresistible

so they offer yet another glass of soured milk with no cookies and hunt for those to scold who say we are saved by grace and not by obedience and totally and willingly overlook the fact that no one is saying 'let us sin' because they counter with grace when law is brought up

even the horses on the merry go round have left for greener pastures and nausea is the only offering on the tableau of yet another inane discussion

Jesus stated that the law and the prophets are summed up by :

37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’e 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’f 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

the entire law and prophets even....summed up which means totalled by

but why did Jesus say this?

34And when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they themselves gathered together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested Him with a question: 36“Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?”

He said it because the religious parasites of His day were yet again trying to trick Him

I see trickery in this thread and I am not Jesus nor a religious leader of any sort

I see trickery in many threads here because certain people desire to lead with no qualifications or having some of any sort, think themselves above others and insist on shoving their continuous and certifiably obnoxious repetitions onto others who keep responding to their delight and behold yet another day passes by and Jesus is not honored nor is better understanding achieved

well good on me, eh?

I'm not a fan favorite here anyway and nor do I care to be.

Some real wisdom here - "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear!"

7seasrekeyed · Feb 26, 2020

Chester said:

born of years in this forum and a couple of others

people keep trying to separate the 10 commandments from the supposed new ones Jesus gave

yet Jesus said those 2 were the SUMMATION of the 10

and when we take a look at the 10, we realize each one puts others before self...forced love if you will, but by now they should be written on our hearts

the only difficulty I would have with the 10, is when someone comes along and states they are obligatory for salvation

Jesus fulfilled ALL obligatory demands because He never sinned...even if we only sinned one time, we are OUT

but I could be preaching to the choir here if you understand what I wrote

eternally-gratefull · Feb 26, 2020

7seasrekeyed said:

Jesus said that if you do these two, you will obey the rest

the law says do not covet, it does not tell you what coveting looks like, every instance or possible means of breaking it, or even how to obey it

it says do not covet.

then it says the truth, if you covet, you are seen as a lawbreaker. the penalty is death.
I am sure ever man woman and child can think of a time they coveted what a brother or sister or neighbor or friend had. As admission of this, they would admit, I am a sinner and need Christ. Hence the job of the schoolmaster

This is what gets people all up in a bother, they hear people telling people. obey the ten commands you will do well

well that’s fine and dandy

but is it not better to obey the law of love, in doing so. by practive you will obey the ten, and also not have to worry if your rally keeping them or not?

Guojing · Feb 26, 2020

Whispered said:

I did. You were using the lack of consequences from God to justify that act of Abraham.

I disagreed. God did not punish him because Abraham was like us, under grace. But it does not mean what he did was not wrong.

FYI, the Mormons have use other books, namely the Book of Abraham, and there was a passage that added that God himself told Abraham to lie.

Whispered · Feb 26, 2020

Guojing said:

Abraham should have told the truth so that he was killed by the Pharaoh that wanted his wife for himself? Abraham was murdered by Pharaoh but hey, at least he told the truth?

Guojing · Feb 26, 2020

Whispered said:

You are funny, Abraham believed he would be killed, that belief does not mean it is true.

You don’t understand what it means to love others as you love yourself is it?

7seasrekeyed · Feb 27, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

have you read my other posts in this thread? not too many actually

but I had this discussion with you in another thread and I left that thread wherein it was claimed you must keep the 10 commandments for your salvation...not by me but you probably know what I am talking about?

anyway, you cannot separate the 10 commandments from what Jesus said as He stated the 10 commandments were summed up by love the Lord your God with all your heart/soul/mind and your neighbor as yourself

Matthew 22:

34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

depending on what translation you use, Jesus states that the commandments (10) are summed by the 2 He responds with to the hypocrites wanting to trip Him up

there is no law of love separate from the original commandments

every one of the 10 puts someone before the person applying them...that is the love Jesus speaks of when He says love your neighbor as yourself

and it all starts with putting God first

basically, we are supposed to put others first...AFTER God...but not in a self righteous manner...there is no use in obeying anything if the motive is wrong

I don't see a whole lotta love being expressed when folks start going on about how you must obey this or that...you don't either

putting God first ...He put us before His Son...

eternally-gratefull · Feb 27, 2020

7seasrekeyed said:

I think we always get into a misunderstanding and it seems to cause these back and forths

coveting is still sin
dishonoring your parents is still sin
bearing false witness is still sin

if we break any of the ten, it is sin, even today. The ten commands still stand

my point of contention is how does a baby christian learn to grow to be mature and christlike

many, including the church I grew up in, said follow the ten commands, do this and you will be ok

well what I witness in myself and many others is this does not work, we all struggle with sin, we all struggle with trying to do things of our own power and failing, I have witnessed many walk away from God and myself did the same, it’s like why bother, I can not do what God asks, so how will he ever love me

well it is because we did it the wrong way, you don’t obey a command by looking to the command and saying, “I am not going to break it,“ especially if it is a besetting sin, because in doing so that sin is always on your mind, and eventually temptation will win out. It’s just like paul said, the command came and sin increased (it did the opposite of what we would think)

jesus tells us how to obey, learn to love, where does this power come from? We love because he first loved us.
if we love our neighbor and think only of how can we serve them, we will not sin against them, nor even be tempted to.

this is what Jesus meant.

my beef is with those who think the ten commands are the means to moral living, it’s not, never has been, never will be. It’s a burden we can not carry,

mailmandan · Feb 27, 2020

Whispered said:

Since the old covenant has been made obsolete, does that leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God made obsolete the old covenant to legally put into place the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13). The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10). Out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on the body of Christ under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

gb9 · Feb 27, 2020

maybe this section should be renamed " the Law and Sabbath discussion ", since that dominates so much lately.

7seasrekeyed · Feb 27, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

I honestly do not understand why you continue to talk about sin

IMO, that's a given

you cannot keep the law to be holy or perfect or acceptable to God however as Christians we know the law is just

I can only repeat what I have been saying

the supposed new laws or commands that Jesus gave are a summation of the 10

I have never been exposed to follow the 10 commandments as a means for salvation or retaining salvation

there is only one way that leads to salvation and those who pursue their own holiness cannot possibly understand that this is not the way

the not by works thread is approaching 6500 pages...obviously, not going to be resolved any time soon and yet Paul states that it is time to move past the rudimentary teachings of Christ

I agree but try to start a thread that concerns something else and you will get people quickly turning it into something else

I have to say that is more than getting a little old

John146 · Feb 27, 2020

Dave-L said:

Jeremiah said the New Covenant would replace the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31–34). Moses said the Old Covenant was the Ten Commandments (Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 9:9 etc.). And Jesus said: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:17–18).

So how do we harmonize Jeremiah who says the New Covenant will replace the Ten Commandments? And Moses who confirms the Ten Commandments are the Old Covenant. With Jesus who says “one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Does this mean heaven and earth cannot end until he fulfills all? And that he would do this before the New Covenant could begin?

The solution is in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus shows how to fulfill the Ten Commandments with the Two Great Commandments. The Two Great Commandments teach: “…. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.” Luke 10:27 (KJV 1900) Calling for positive action based on love towards God and people.

In the parable of the Good Samaritan the passersby avoided the mugging victim. But they kept the Ten Commandments. They kept the eighth commandment by not stealing more from the victim while in a vulnerable position. But they still robbed him according to the Two Great Commandments. By not treating him as their equal and running to his aid.

So Why the Ten Commandments? The Ten Commandments aimed at controlling the wicked unbelievers in the nation. These were so wicked it took 40 years of toil to complete an eleven day journey from Egypt to Canaan. Wandering in the desert until all but faithful Caleb and Joshua dropped dead. God denied them the land promises because of their sin.

As Paul says: “But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:8–10 (KJV 1900)

It is obvious Abraham, Abel, Job and other believers did not need the Law or they would have had it too. When God removed the unbelievers from Israel under Christ (Romans 11), he removed the Ten Commandments with them (Colossians 2:14). Leaving only the moral law in its spiritual application for believers.

During the closing years of the Old Covenant Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). Showing the Ten Commandments were morally equal to the Two Great Commandments when understood. As with the Good Samaritan, passively not stealing from someone according to the Ten Commandments is still stealing if you owe them the same treatment you lavish on yourself. Not stealing under threat of death does not make you good. It only makes bad people not do badly under threat of death. Only when obeyed actively in love for God and others did a person keep the Ten at a level equal the Two Great Commandments.

Jesus showed how to fulfill the Law. If he fulfilled the Ten Commandments on the cross as the unbelieving Jews understood them. He would not have lusted after Pilate’s wife. Or stolen his spear. Or coveted the soldier’s shield, and such. And then he would have felt good about himself for not doing these when he wanted to. This is the level most kept the Ten Commandments as seen in the Pharisees. And then perhaps thanking God as the Pharisee that he is not like others who do such.

But when Jesus fulfilled the Two Great Commandments, he fulfilled the Ten Commandments in a proper way too. Because when spiritually understood they have equal moral value to the Two Great Commandments. (Matthew 22:40).

So how did Jesus fulfill the Law?

“And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.” Luke 10:27 (KJV 1900)

When Jesus fulfilled the Law on the cross, he Loved God with all his mind, body, soul, and heart and strength. And his neighbor as himself.

He gave all his body over to the worst death imaginable in love for God and enemies. He gave his entire mind and soul in love for God when he said “not my will but thy will be done”. And he gave his last ounce of strength in his love for God and enemies as we wrenched the last drop of blood from him. And he loved his enemies as his own self when he asked God to forgive them for killing him.

So Jesus when fulfilling the Two Great Commandments also fulfilled the Ten to the fullest extent. And in that he abolished them in their redundancy by nailing them to his cross (Colossians 2:14). So when we think of the Law as believers today, we see the Ten Commandments no longer in their elementary form. But in their spiritual form equal to the Two Great Commandments through the Sermon on the Mount. Providing a practical application of the Two Great Commandments for everyday life.

The "original" ten commandments were destroyed by Moses. God did not panic. He made a copy of the originals, and the copy was better than the originals. It stayed in tact and people got to read and live by them. We should never put more emphasis on the "originals" than God Himself does.

Dave-L · Feb 27, 2020

John146 said:

The "original" ten commandments were destroyed by Moses. God did not panic. He made a copy of the originals, and the copy was better than the originals. It stayed in tact and people got to read and live by them. We should never put more emphasis on the "originals" than God Himself does.

What happened to the tablets?

John146 · Feb 27, 2020

Dave-L said:

The originals? Moses destroyed them. Moses was the only one to have read the originals.

Dave-L · Feb 27, 2020

John146 said:

How about the copies?

John146 · Feb 27, 2020

Dave-L said:

The table of stone copy was placed in the ark of the covenant. I believe Moses had a scribe make a copy of the copy. yes? Besides, we have the Scripture written by Moses that states the commandments and rest of the law.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 27, 2020

7seasrekeyed said:

I do not know why what I say is so hard for you to understand. Is it because you have no desire to? Or am I speaking something foreign to you? Or what is it? Can we try to figure it out?

why is it so hard for you to comprehend my issue is how one grows in Christ. (The means of growth or sanctification of a new believer)?

It is Not sin, it is not A conversation of how we are or not saved yet you keep bringing these topics up as if this is what I am discussing.

can you for once read what u said and try to show you have even a basic understanding of it? Because until then we will never resolve our issue

7seasrekeyed · Feb 27, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

go read post 81

he understood

perhaps he has the patience to go over it all with you again, but I doubt he would have the patience for your insults

eternally-gratefull · Feb 27, 2020

7seasrekeyed said:

1. I was not talking about him. I was talking about you and your misunderstanding of what I am trying to say.
2. You insult me by continuing to refuse to even try to understand what I am saying, and then when I ask you to. making comments like this,

Practice what you preach!

Don't judge me when you refuse to sit and understand and in effect insult me.

When your ready to sit and talk about what I am really trying to say come let me know.. I won't hold my breath

Whispered · Feb 27, 2020

mailmandan said:

Thank you for posting those. They prove that the Old Testament Moral Laws in the Ten Commands/Ten Words, are not obsolete, but are added to or amended as it were, by Christ's own teaching.
The Book of Matthew chapter 5

The Fulfillment of the Law

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19*Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.* 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Murder

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherb will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,c’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.d

Adultery

27“You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’e 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce

31“It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’f 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths

33“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.’ 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

An Eye for an Eye

38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’g 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighborh and hate your enemy.’ 44*But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you*, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The Sabbath isn't mentioned there because Jesus, who said He came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, knew well enough that the Jews to whom He ministered already knew the Sabbath stands forever. Why reiterate when forever means exactly that, forever.
Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

The Decalogue, Ten Commands/Ten Words of God are the Law of God. And as we can see, is not obsolete when Jesus reiterated it.

"Torah", meaning, "law" is mistranslated from the actual Hebrew. Torah does not mean, law. Torah means, teaching.
12. "Blessed is the man you discipline, O LORD, the man you teach from your Torah" The Psalms (songs) of David, chapter 94

Therefore, Torah is not the law and cannot be said to be obsolete and here is why. Jesus was the Word made flesh.Nor is the Gospel, the new law or law of any kind. It is grace.
To argue that The Word made obsolete that which He said stands forever is to argue and believe that God divided His kingdom and took a back step on what He had said previously about not one jot nor tittle.
When God is the Word prior to begetting Himself upon Mary, whom He highly favored in His grace to bear Himself as Son of God/Man into the world, then that means God remained The Word when He arrived as Jesus. (In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God).

The Book of 2nd Timothy 3:2

Whatever Happened to the Ten Commandments?

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