The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman
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^ Yes, the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom AKA "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (variously known as "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]," aka the "G347 shall sit down [around a table / at a meal]," aka "the age [singular] to come"... etc etc)
[ALL referring to the earthly MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19)]
[ALL referring to the earthly MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19)]
Isn’t that what rev says they are horsemen beast, when the seals start opening killing will be the law not sin. so I don’t believe the first seal is the man of sin.
2 thessa 2:2/3
2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come
3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
the whole event is part of the coming.
Rev 6
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
2 thessa 2:2/3
2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come
3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
the whole event is part of the coming.
Rev 6
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
And that's why you need to study the Word, and draw out from the Word (from Genesis to Revelation) what all is implied. You want the easy way out by wanting an explicit statement. We will hear this again and again, as though it proves anything: IT DOES NOT SAY. But it does say, just not the way you want it to say.
I would agree. If the second was constructed as a temple built with humans hands under the Pagan form of religion, It was demanded by faithless Jews because of the jealousy of the surrounding nations . They refused to worship a unseen King of kings. They had no faith. God gave them over to do that which they should not of desired an abomination of desolation. Corruption as the things seen the temporal in the holy unseen place of faith.. . . the eternal
How would building another temple built with human hands be any better than the first? The reformation came .The Pagan form of government lost its grip on lording it over the woman with a high wall to divide not having the authority to participate in the ceremonies , and another wall between the gentiles. Men and woman from all nations were able to gather together under the authority of the name of God as it is written.
See if this was the case, if it is built this way, it's NOT Gods temple and therefore cannot be desecrated. You can't desecrate a temple that is not His, even if you call it His. See what I mean? His temple has fulfilled it's purpose and judgment came in 70 ad when He took His temple off the earth. He now dwells in us. Never to go backwards, See how this all fits?
Sorry but 2 Thess. 2 1-4 proves that you have misinterpreted every scripture you quoted. I do believe and take every scripture you quoted literally but they have nothing to do with when the Resurrection takes place or when the antichrist is revealed. But 2 Thess. 2 1-4 tells us the opposite of what you are teaching
2 Thess 1-4 proves that there will be no resurrection until AFTER THE ANTICHRIST IS ON THE WORLD SCENE PERSECUTING THE P[EOPLE OF GOD and not until AFTER there is a falling away first. As you know Pre-Tribbers believe that we will be raptured out of here before the antichrist is on the world scene but 2 Th. 2:3 is very clear about the fact the we will not be going anywhere until after the "man of sin is revealed".
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Read it and learn
2 Thess 1-4 proves that there will be no resurrection until AFTER THE ANTICHRIST IS ON THE WORLD SCENE PERSECUTING THE P[EOPLE OF GOD and not until AFTER there is a falling away first. As you know Pre-Tribbers believe that we will be raptured out of here before the antichrist is on the world scene but 2 Th. 2:3 is very clear about the fact the we will not be going anywhere until after the "man of sin is revealed".
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Read it and learn
massorite, I made several posts back in December (I think), on that passage, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (a very often misunderstood passage).
Consider those posts:
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4101689
- Post #577 (page 29 of the "What is your best proof..." thread)
--see also Posts #578, #579, #580 (also page 29)
--see also Post #597 (on the next page, page 30 of that same thread) - this one about the translation history
[if the system is right, it is showing that I have a total of 187 posts in that 77 page thread, LOL!]
Consider those posts:
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4101689
- Post #577 (page 29 of the "What is your best proof..." thread)
--see also Posts #578, #579, #580 (also page 29)
--see also Post #597 (on the next page, page 30 of that same thread) - this one about the translation history
[if the system is right, it is showing that I have a total of 187 posts in that 77 page thread, LOL!]
For my own posts only, the green [marking?] that shows up beside the title of the thread (on the left side), when I'm logged in... that goes for any given thread I have posted in... when you hover your cursor over that green marking (beside the threads you've posted in), your own number of posts (in that thread) pops up.
Does that make sense? (I mean, when you're on the main page of a forum... BDF, for example)
EDIT: sorry (not "green"), it shows up as the symbol like my username circle here does, only smaller... the big T in... fushia?? LOL
Does that make sense? (I mean, when you're on the main page of a forum... BDF, for example)
EDIT: sorry (not "green"), it shows up as the symbol like my username circle here does, only smaller... the big T in... fushia?? LOL
GaryA, if you are wondering how many of your own posts are located in that particular thread I referenced, the thread is located some 9 or maybe 10 pages back (in BDF), as of this writing. 
____________
Here's what I had put in Post #725 of that thread (page 37):
[quoting that post]
^ EDIT TO ADD: Who here has debunked the following quote (not saying it's "pre-trib-as-we-know-it," but certainly sounds like "two stages" here in this quote):
"Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the indignation of God. And these shall be in the last times when the church shall have gone out of the midst."
--Victorinus, Bishop of Pettau, 270ad
[so where it says, "when the church shall have gone out of the midst"... this language is the very language Paul used in 2Th2:7b "until OUT OF THE MIDST HE BE COME [COME TO BE], and then [kai tote]…" (...which I've pointed out repeatedly )]
[end quoting]
____________
Here's what I had put in Post #725 of that thread (page 37):
[quoting that post]
^ EDIT TO ADD: Who here has debunked the following quote (not saying it's "pre-trib-as-we-know-it," but certainly sounds like "two stages" here in this quote):
"Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the indignation of God. And these shall be in the last times when the church shall have gone out of the midst."
--Victorinus, Bishop of Pettau, 270ad
[so where it says, "when the church shall have gone out of the midst"... this language is the very language Paul used in 2Th2:7b "until OUT OF THE MIDST HE BE COME [COME TO BE], and then [kai tote]…" (...which I've pointed out repeatedly
)][end quoting]
One more thing...
here is what I'd put in Post #789 of that thread (page 40):
[quoting that post]
Let's start with the "definition" of the phrase "the Day of the Lord" (2Th2:2--the thing Paul was telling the Thessalonians not to believe anyone trying to convince them that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative--meaning, started at a point in the past with continuing effects into the present]"--which would have been an entirely REASONABLE thing for them to be convinced of, DUE TO their PRESENT and ONGOING, VERY *NEGATIVE* things they were ongoingly EXPERIENCING/ENDURING, per 1:4).
The biblical definition (not the faulty "amill-teachings'" definition of it) is:
"an-earthly-period-of-time-[not merely 24-hrs in length]-OF-JUDGMENTs-followed-by-a-period-of-time-[also not merely 24-hrs in length]-of-BLESSINGs" (ALL THAT TOGETHER is "the DOTL"--it involves/includes: the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth [the "IN THE NIGHT"/DARK/DARKNESS aspect (1Th5:2-3 its ARRIVAL)], His Second Coming to the earth [the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect], AND the 1000-yr-reign on/over the earth [the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect]... ALL THREE!)
So, when we grasp the biblical definition of it, we can START to see Paul's point he's conveying in 2Th2... (verse 1's noun-event is NOT the same item as verse 2's earthly-located TIME-PERIOD; everyone tends to EQUATE these TWO DISTINCT ITEMS, consequently MISSING Paul's ACTUAL POINT he is conveying here)
[end quoting]
here is what I'd put in Post #789 of that thread (page 40):
[quoting that post]
Let's start with the "definition" of the phrase "the Day of the Lord" (2Th2:2--the thing Paul was telling the Thessalonians not to believe anyone trying to convince them that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative--meaning, started at a point in the past with continuing effects into the present]"--which would have been an entirely REASONABLE thing for them to be convinced of, DUE TO their PRESENT and ONGOING, VERY *NEGATIVE* things they were ongoingly EXPERIENCING/ENDURING, per 1:4).
The biblical definition (not the faulty "amill-teachings'" definition of it) is:
"an-earthly-period-of-time-[not merely 24-hrs in length]-OF-JUDGMENTs-followed-by-a-period-of-time-[also not merely 24-hrs in length]-of-BLESSINGs" (ALL THAT TOGETHER is "the DOTL"--it involves/includes: the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth [the "IN THE NIGHT"/DARK/DARKNESS aspect (1Th5:2-3 its ARRIVAL)], His Second Coming to the earth [the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect], AND the 1000-yr-reign on/over the earth [the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect]... ALL THREE!)
So, when we grasp the biblical definition of it, we can START to see Paul's point he's conveying in 2Th2... (verse 1's noun-event is NOT the same item as verse 2's earthly-located TIME-PERIOD; everyone tends to EQUATE these TWO DISTINCT ITEMS, consequently MISSING Paul's ACTUAL POINT he is conveying here)
[end quoting]