The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

[GaryA]

Read revelation, god starts pouring his wrath And it lasts for quite a while

what you just did here is disprove post trib, as there is no time to rapture the church, send them all through the bema seat judgment, and return moments later

in fact, if we read, when God starts pouring his wrath by opening seals. the church is there witnessing those things, already raptured and already crowned and given robes of righteousness

All of Revelation is not the Wrath of God; only the 'vials' constitute the Wrath of God - which I believe occurs over a relatively short period of time.

The "bema seat judgment" - AKA the "Judgment Seat of Christ" - is not a separate judgment. It is the very same as the "Great White Throne Judgment"; there is only one judgment.

The Seals are not part of the Wrath of God; neither are the Trumpet events.

 

[massorite]

massorite, I made several posts back in December (I think), on that passage, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (a very often misunderstood passage).

Consider those posts:

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4101689
- Post #577 (page 29 of the "What is your best proof..." thread)

--see also Posts #578, #579, #580 (also page 29)

--see also Post #597 (on the next page, page 30 of that same thread) - this one about the translation history



[if the system is right, it is showing that I have a total of 187 posts in that 77 page thread, LOL!]

Thanks but no thanks. I used exceptional research tools to dig deep into 2 Thess 2: 1-4 and I have double and tripled the research to make sure I got it right. So I don't need your 187 posts to convince me one way or the other. All I need is an accurate version of the Word of God and good research tools. I never read other peoples opinions of what they think scripture says because it is just the opinion of a man which is why for every statement I make, I provide Scripture to back up what I teach/preach. It is not simply my opinion of what I think the Word of God is saying. It is what the word of God teaches to you and all who read the Word of God.
When the Bible says "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days" and the word "Tribulation" is translated into the word Tribulation from the Greek word "Affliction" I know that verse 29 is talking about the "Affliction" of the saints and is not talking about the Wrath/punishment of God. In Matt. 24: 21 and 29 the word "Tribulation" is translated from the Greek words Affliction, Afflicted, Anguish, Burdened, Trouble and Persecution according the the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance #G2347. Nothing at all in the Strong's definition of the word"Tribulation" about any wrath or punishment of God. The Strong's number for the word "Wrath" as in the wrath of God is #G3709 in the Greek dictionary section of the Strong's and the definition of the word "Wrath" in the Strong's means and is talking about the "retribution and PUNISHMENT" spoken of in Luk 21:23 "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people." Nothing mentioned in this verse about Tribulation/ Affliction is spoken of but the Wrath/Punishment of God is spoken of.
Two different events and two different meanings. The Strong's number for the Word Tribulation is #G2347. The Strong's number for the Word Wrath in Luke 21:23 is #3709. Look them up if you don't believe me. Two different events and two Different words which have two different meanings/definitions. TRIBULATION AND THE WRATH OF GOD ARE NOT THE SAME THING AS MOST PRE-TRIBULATIONISTS BELIEVE. But you and all other Pre-Tribber's are wrong based on the definitions/translations of the two words.
In the Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon the word "Tribulation" is translated like this "Of the Afflictions of those hard press by siege and the calamities of war". Which is exactly what Daniel prophecies about.
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made WAR with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
We will not be allowed to possess the Kingdom until Resurrection Day as per. verse 22 and Judgement day is Resurrection Day.
Please understand, my beliefs are strictly held on a strict and well researched scriptural foundation. It is not simply my opinion, it is what the researched Word of God teaches.
If you want to reject the scriptures I quoted along with the Strong's and Thayer's Greek lexicons numbers and definitions of the word Wrath and Tribulation fine. BUT remember I didn't compose or write any of these books. I am only repeating what they tell/teach us.

 

[GaryA]

get your facts straight man, any belief which comes from one passage is weak.
no one would believe a doctrine based on one passage alone

Funny you should say this - the 'pre-trib' view is based heavily on an erroneous interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 - and, "doesn't have a leg to stand on" without it.

 

[Jackson123]

2 these is not his coming. No place does he set boots on ground in Thessalonians. We meet him in the air. Not on earth.
His second return will be when he comes in revelation

So when is His coming, after 2 thesalonians or before

 

[presidente]

2 these is not his coming. No place does he set boots on ground in Thessalonians. We meet him in the air. Not on earth.
His second return will be when he comes in revelation

Both passages are about the parousia. At the parousia, that wicked one is destroyed at the brightness of his coming.

 

[presidente]

Yes, this promised restoration of their kingdom is the kingdom of heaven not the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is spiritual not physical. It is not meat and drink, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

There are passages where one gospel says kingdom of heaven and a parallel passage in another gospel says kingdom of God. Some Jews used euphemisms for God rather than saying the word.

 

[tanakh]

You said what they did was no better than what a JW or Mormon would do and you would not listen to them why would you listen to a pretribber

Why are you afraid to admit what you did?
and why would you say it in the first place. Many could say the same about your beliefs would that help
In the conversation?

This is my last response to you on this'

I used JWs and latter day saints as examples of how false interpretations of Doctrines can be believed. The average member of these cults we meet door to door do not realise that what their leaders are teaching them is false Thats why its so difficult to free them
from the organisations they belong to. Pre Trib believers are not members of Cults but the Doctrine has infiltrated otherwise sound
Biblical based Churches.

Most if not all 19th Century originators in this had dubious beliefs and backgrounds. In the UK Edward Irvin formed his own Church and was expelled from it because he announced the belief that Christ had a sin nature. He died poor and friendless in 18 The Pre Trib belief spread to the US via John Darby and his ''Disciple'' Cyrus Schofield. Schofield spread the teaching via the Moody Bible Institute and his Reference Bible. It was first published by Oxford University press in 1909. For more of Schofields background check him out on the internet.

In recent years efforts have been made to prove the authenticity of the teaching by citing a handful of pre 1830 writers.
If all of them were genuine it still doesn't confirm that the teaching is true. One would think that from the time of Paul
and his epistles something as important as a Pre Trib rapture would have been embedded in the minds of every believer
for the past 2000 years.

There is an ancient document called the Didache which consists of the earliest description of a Church service and references
to Christs second coming. It is believed to have been written in the first or early part of the 2nd Century. It mentions the antichrist. One thing glaringly absent is any reference to a Pre trib rapture.

 

[John146]

There are passages where one gospel says kingdom of heaven and a parallel passage in another gospel says kingdom of God. Some Jews used euphemisms for God rather than saying the word.

In no case throughout Scripture does the word heaven ever mean God. They are two separate words. One is spiritual, the other is a place.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thanks but no thanks. I used exceptional research tools to dig deep into 2 Thess 2: 1-4 and I have double and tripled the research to make sure I got it right. So I don't need your 187 posts to convince me one way or the other. All I need is an accurate version of the Word of God and good research tools. I never read other peoples opinions of what they think scripture says because it is just the opinion of a man which is why for every statement I make, I provide Scripture to back up what I teach/preach. It is not simply my opinion of what I think the Word of God is saying. It is what the word of God teaches to you and all who read the Word of God.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. My intention was to supply you with only 5 posts I had made in that thread.

The first one (at link) was covering the definition of a word in 2Th2, where the Greek-English Lexicon [lexicons] has it defined as: "later form for apostasis" (then apo stasis - "a standing away from [a previous standing]" or "departure"--which includes a geographical/spatial 'departure').

I also went into the related word "stasis" (used in Heb9:8-9a), where 8 of its 9 occurrences mean something "negative" (like "insurrection," "a rebel, revolutionist." "dissension," and the like), but here in Heb9:8 does not carry that meaning at all.

When the Bible says "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days" and the word "Tribulation" is translated into the word Tribulation from the Greek word "Affliction" I know that verse 29 is talking about the "Affliction" of the saints and is not talking about the Wrath/punishment of God. In Matt. 24: 21 and 29 the word "Tribulation" is translated from the Greek words Affliction, Afflicted, Anguish, Burdened, Trouble and Persecution according the the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance #G2347. Nothing at all in the Strong's definition of the word"Tribulation" about any wrath or punishment of God.

There is no denying that there will indeed be "saints" existing IN/DURING the tribulation years.

The Strong's number for the word "Wrath" as in the wrath of God is #G3709 in the Greek dictionary section of the Strong's and the definition of the word "Wrath" in the Strong's means and is talking about the "retribution and PUNISHMENT" spoken of in Luk 21:23 "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people." Nothing mentioned in this verse about Tribulation/ Affliction is spoken of but the Wrath/Punishment of God is spoken of.

Luke 21:23 is set in the context of the events surrounding 70ad (parallel to both Matt22:7 and Jesus' words in Lk19:41-44 He spoke on Palm Sunday [when He did Zech9:9]). That section of Lk21 (vv.12-24) are not speaking of the far-future tribulation period, but the near future events of 70ad.

Two different events and two different meanings. The Strong's number for the Word Tribulation is #G2347. The Strong's number for the Word Wrath in Luke 21:23 is #3709. Look them up if you don't believe me. Two different events and two Different words which have two different meanings/definitions. TRIBULATION AND THE WRATH OF GOD ARE NOT THE SAME THING AS MOST PRE-TRIBULATIONISTS BELIEVE. But you and all other Pre-Tribber's are wrong based on the definitions/translations of the two words.

This goes into ascertaining just what Seal #2 covers (early in the trib) , which I won't go into in this post.

But I had also shown a parallel in the wording between 2Th2:7-b-8a with that of Lamentations 2:3-4 (in its section of vv.1-7 with its "wrath words" and how He uses their "enemy [/enemies]" to inflict it).

In the Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon the word "Tribulation" is translated like this "Of the Afflictions of those hard press by siege and the calamities of war". Which is exactly what Daniel prophecies about.
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made WAR with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
We will not be allowed to possess the Kingdom until Resurrection Day as per. verse 22 and Judgement day is Resurrection Day.

Not every saint in the tribulation period (described in the passage above) will "die" (I had provided the example of Dan12:12 of "still-living" persons who will ENTER the kingdom as still-living... along with about 8-9 other "BLESSED" passages speaking to this point in the "chronology").

Please understand, my beliefs are strictly held on a strict and well researched scriptural foundation. It is not simply my opinion, it is what the researched Word of God teaches.
If you want to reject the scriptures I quoted along with the Strong's and Thayer's Greek lexicons numbers and definitions of the word Wrath and Tribulation fine. BUT remember I didn't compose or write any of these books. I am only repeating what they tell/teach us.

Me too. I tried to supply that very thing in my previous post (with the links). And a little in this post (at top).

Thank you for hearing me out. Have a blessed day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All of Revelation is not the Wrath of God; only the 'vials' constitute the Wrath of God - which I believe occurs over a relatively short period of time.

not true, all of the judgments are part of Gods wrath, gods pours his wrath as indicated in the seals, the bowls and the vials.

The "bema seat judgment" - AKA the "Judgment Seat of Christ" - is not a separate judgment. It is the very same as the "Great White Throne Judgment"; there is only one judgment.

Also not true
1.a be a judgment is like a judgment at the olympics, where those who excelled are rewarded for their works
2. People are risen or resurrected by Christ to attend the bema and even those who do not recieved reward are saved.
3. death and hades are delievered to Christ for the great white throne.
4. everyone their suffers the second death.

The Seals are not part of the Wrath of God; neither are the Trumpet events.

Again, not true

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Funny you should say this - the 'pre-trib' view is based heavily on an erroneous interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 - and, "doesn't have a leg to stand on" without it.

Funny you keep saying this

its not true, as I have said numerous times, (I used to be an ardent pretriber so I know)

pretrib comes from putting many passages of scripture together not just one passage, as I said, that would be foolish.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So when is His coming, after 2 thesalonians or before

He comes at the end of the tribulation, where the whole world sees him ascend and plant his feet on mount olives as it splits in two

the rapture is not seen in this light, it does not say anyone sees him at this time, only that the dead rise, then the living follow.

two events

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Both passages are about the parousia. At the parousia, that wicked one is destroyed at the brightness of his coming.

Not true

the antichrist is not destroyed in Thess

if anything he is given more power, as spirit filled believers are removed.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Funny you should say this - the 'pre-trib' view is based heavily on an erroneous interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 - and, "doesn't have a leg to stand on" without it.

Recall my post about Jesus' use of the "singular" when He spoke (in Matt24:15) about "the abomination [SINGULAR] of desolation [SINGULAR] spoken of by Daniel the prophet" and my pointing out that this is NOT the context of Dan9:24-27 [though that's RELATED] but more aligned with Daniel 12:11 (and then mentioned the "[be] SET UP [H5414]" word... and also how its context is the "far-future" 2nd half of trib, with Daniel being told he will be resurrected at the END of those particular day-amounts supplied in that context)?

I don't happen to recall your response to that [post]. Do you happen to remember (if you answered it)?

Thanks.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Both passages are about the parousia. At the parousia, that wicked one is destroyed at the brightness of his coming.

The word "parousia" is used in both contexts. It is also used of "the man of sin" at his ARRIVAL point in time.

Context determines WHERE and IN WHOSE presence He [or anyone else its used of] will be [located; "location, location, location" ].

Same goes for the other word, "erchomai,"... that it is also used for both contexts.

[meaning, both at the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" *AND* His Second Coming to the earth/"RETURN" to the earth; in the case of "our Rapture," He will be in NO ONE ELSE'S presence but ours, and we will be the only ones in HIS presence (at that point in the chronology)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Recall my mention of "the two silver trumpets" in Numbers 10:1-10; and the differing "soundings" [/patterns] in which they would be blown for the differing PURPOSES (several different "purposes" shown in that passage)?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is my last response to you on this'

I used JWs and latter day saints as examples of how false interpretations of Doctrines can be believed. The average member of these cults we meet door to door do not realise that what their leaders are teaching them is false Thats why its so difficult to free them
from the organisations they belong to. Pre Trib believers are not members of Cults but the Doctrine has infiltrated otherwise sound
Biblical based Churches.

Most if not all 19th Century originators in this had dubious beliefs and backgrounds. In the UK Edward Irvin formed his own Church and was expelled from it because he announced the belief that Christ had a sin nature. He died poor and friendless in 18 The Pre Trib belief spread to the US via John Darby and his ''Disciple'' Cyrus Schofield. Schofield spread the teaching via the Moody Bible Institute and his Reference Bible. It was first published by Oxford University press in 1909. For more of Schofields background check him out on the internet.

In recent years efforts have been made to prove the authenticity of the teaching by citing a handful of pre 1830 writers.
If all of them were genuine it still doesn't confirm that the teaching is true. One would think that from the time of Paul
and his epistles something as important as a Pre Trib rapture would have been embedded in the minds of every believer
for the past 2000 years.

There is an ancient document called the Didache which consists of the earliest description of a Church service and references
to Christs second coming. It is believed to have been written in the first or early part of the 2nd Century. It mentions the antichrist. One thing glaringly absent is any reference to a Pre trib rapture.

Here is what you do not understand

people can use this same reasoning for your belief system

what is wrong with people just sitting down and talking about the word? Why do people have to attack others? Which is what you did, yu can deny it all you want but you did.

When your ready to discuss what your brothers and sisters believe, let’s talk, until then, i Can not give what you say a second thought, attacks are not a way to win an argument, and both sides do this, and it’s a shame,

the historical references you are giving mean nothing, yu were not there nor was I, let’s stick to the word of God

the Catholic Church preaches historical non bi local records are what we should trust not the word of God itself, so why would we want to act like the Catholic Church? Unless we are just like them, God forbid!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Most if not all 19th Century originators in this had dubious beliefs and backgrounds. In the UK Edward Irvin formed his own Church and was expelled from it because he announced the belief that Christ had a sin nature. He died poor and friendless in 18 The Pre Trib belief spread to[…]

Just to note (for the readers), I had made a post in one of UWC's threads (I think it was) where I made the point that E. Irving was an "Historicist" (not "Pre-trib").

"Historicist" would be along the lines of [/similar to] what [member] GaryA espouses, if I recall correctly. Is that right, GaryA? (that "[The] Revelation" has been unfolding over time since the first century... [not the part about Christ and the sin nature... lol])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Not true

the antichrist is not destroyed in Thess

if anything he is given more power, as spirit filled believers are removed.

To be fair, 2Th2:8b does refer to his destruction (at the time of Jesus' "RETURN" to the earth)... but what many do not grasp is that the 2Th2 passage is covering the entire 7-yr period (not just the last 3.5 yrs [mid-point +] and not just the end).

V.8a speaks to its BEGINNING point, v.8b speaks to its ENDING point (with other vv. in the passage speaking to its MIDDLE point) in its overall chronology (and duration--the ENTIRE "7-yrs" in this passage: its BEGINNING, its MIDDLE, its END... just like in other related passages).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To be fair, 2Th2:8b does refer to his destruction (at the time of Jesus' "RETURN" to the earth)... but what many do not grasp is that the 2Th2 passage is covering the entire 7-yr period (not just the last 3.5 yrs [mid-point +] and not just the end).

V.8a speaks to its BEGINNING point, v.8b speaks to its ENDING point (with other vv. in the passage speaking to its MIDDLE point) in its overall chronology (and duration--the ENTIRE "7-yrs" in this passage: its BEGINNING, its MIDDLE, its END... just like in other related passages).

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

here is where and how the man of sin is revealed. Even jesus spoke of this as the sign, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by daniel....