The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

[TheDivineWatermark]

"indisputable fact"
When it doesn't say ANYTHING like that? John was invited to witness a scene in heaven, not the whole church.
We would't need a Revelation of Jesus Christ that's 20 chapters long if the Church was to leave in chapter 4.

He may have been speaking in reference to "the 24 elders" who are shown sitting on "24 thrones" with "stephanon/crowns of gold" and are saying "and hath redeemed US" (per the manuscript evidence for Rev5:9)… and this, following a "searching judgment" as indicated by the "was found" wording of 5:4 (like is used re: Paul at his arrest/trials in the latter parts of Acts [before/facing their (human) bema seat])… I made a post on that awhile back.

Take a listen (re: Rev5:9's wording):

[quoting that post]

Dr David Hocking showed Marv Rosenthal (I believe it was) about the manuscript evidence (re: Rev5:9-10; with v.9 saying "US" ['having redeemed US']) had to acknowledge "agreement" [that David Hocking was right and Scripture does say that, per the manuscript evidence Hocking pointed out], but then Rosenthal proceeded to publish his already-written "pre-wrath book" anyway, despite being informed of these facts:

[see @ this vid (approx 9-min vid total) :

--note also in this video that he mentions something Geo E. Ladd [...] had said about this passage/esp verse 9]

[end quoting that post]

 

[massorite]

Is that what is referred to as the 'amillennialist' view? That we are currently in the 1000 year reign of Rev 20?
I find that more amusing than anything else. What a ridiculous notion.

Yes that is what the amillennialist point of view is.

 

[cv5]

Saved Jews would be taken also In any rapture no Matter when it is
fact

Correct. All Jews and gentiles become Christian in this redemptive phase.....the Church Age.
After Rev 4..... the Church aka Bride is in the Fathers house to return WITH Christ at His Second Coming. Boilerplate scripture.

 

[cv5]

He may have been speaking in reference to "the 24 elders" who are shown sitting on "24 thrones" with "stephanon/crowns of gold" and are saying "and hath redeemed US" (per the manuscript evidence for Rev5:9)… and this, following a "searching judgment" as indicated by the "was found" wording of 5:4 (like is used re: Paul at his arrest/trials in the latter parts of Acts [before/facing their (human) bema seat])… I made a post on that awhile back.

Take a listen (re: Rev5:9's wording):

[quoting that post]

Dr David Hocking showed Marv Rosenthal (I believe it was) about the manuscript evidence (re: Rev5:9-10; with v.9 saying "US" ['having redeemed US']) had to acknowledge "agreement" [that David Hocking was right and Scripture does say that, per the manuscript evidence Hocking pointed out], but then Rosenthal proceeded to publish his already-written "pre-wrath book" anyway, despite being informed of these facts:

[see @ this vid (approx 9-min vid total) :

--note also in this video that he mentions something Geo E. Ladd [...] had said about this passage/esp verse 9]

[end quoting that post]

All manuscripts say "us" ......execpt for one. "us" takes it by a landslide. Clearly the 24 Elders are the Raptured Church.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Saved Jews would be taken also In any rapture no Matter when it is
fact

Except those who come to faith following our Rapture.

Many will come to faith IN/DURING the trib years... AFTER our Rapture/THE Departure... and they will either die in the trib years OR endure unto the end as still-living persons to ENTER the MK age in mortal bodies [saints / believers / the BLESSED / the righteous only, will ENTER at is commencement point in time, that is, upon His "RETURN" to the earth; see Dan12:12's "BLESSED" for one example of this]. There is no "rapture" at that point in time--they will enter the earthly MK age without having lifted off the earth (many passages speak of this).

The "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)] (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"... it does not pertain to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

All manuscripts say "us" ......execpt for one.

"except for one" which leaves it blank. Am I recalling that correctly??

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Why can’t we just discuss. All the attacks people make it’s sad.

Perhaps I'll back off for now. This isn't the best thread title for an open discussion is it?
The OP started off on the attack with name-calling so it was bound to get heated.

The story about the MacDonald woman originating the pre-trib view may have been largely debunked now.
I don't really care about that, what's most important is what is recorded in scripture.
I have a feeling though however courteous we begin, the discussion will soon deteriorate.

 

[Noose]

That is your incorrect assumption. Those chapters exist for the benefit of Jews and gentiles who are destined to go THROUGH the GT so that they themselves may have an anchor for their hope and faith such that they persevere to the end and therebye be saved . Very obvious to me.

Jews vs the Church has never been an argument. In Christ, there's no Jew or gentile or rather, believers are what God calls Jews.

Jews = Church according to the new dispensation:

Rom 2:28A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.

Between Rev ch.1-4, God Himself calls the church, true Jews:

Rev 2:
8To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of the First and the Last, who died and returned to life.

9I know your affliction and your poverty—though you are rich! And I am aware of the slander of those who falsely claim to be Jews, but are in fact a synagogue of Satan.
.......
11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Rev 3:
7To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

.....
8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door, which no one can shut. For you have only a little strength, yet you have kept My word and have not denied My name. 9Look at those who belong to the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews but are liars instead. I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I love you.
....
13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.


The whole of Revelation is about the church. No single part is meant for Jews as a people:

Rev 22:16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright Morning Star.”

Rev 1:1This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soona come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John

 

[Noose]

That is your incorrect assumption. Those chapters exist for the benefit of Jews and gentiles who are destined to go THROUGH the GT so that they themselves may have an anchor for their hope and faith such that they persevere to the end and therebye be saved . Very obvious to me.

We are deep into the great tribulation and many don't even realize. That's the reason Jesus said it will be like Noah and Lot's days, people will be merrying, drinking and partying, marrying and being given for marriage. There's not going to be a 7 year or 3.5 year period where these things will not be happening.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Except those who come to faith following our Rapture.

Many will come to faith IN/DURING the trib years... AFTER our Rapture/THE Departure... and they will either die in the trib years OR endure unto the end as still-living persons to ENTER the MK age in mortal bodies [saints / believers / the BLESSED / the righteous only, will ENTER at is commencement point in time, that is, upon His "RETURN" to the earth; see Dan12:12's "BLESSED" for one example of this]. There is no "rapture" at that point in time--they will enter the earthly MK age without having lifted off the earth (many passages speak of this).

The "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)] (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"... it does not pertain to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)

I disagree
I will not be raptured before Abraham or issac or Jeremiah or King David. We will be resurrected at the same time

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Perhaps I'll back off for now. This isn't the best thread title for an open discussion is it?
The OP started off on the attack with name-calling so it was bound to get heated.

The story about the MacDonald woman originating the pre-trib view may have been largely debunked now.
I don't really care about that, what's most important is what is recorded in scripture.
I have a feeling though however courteous we begin, the discussion will soon deteriorate.

I would love to have a thread where we can civilly discuss these things

As soon as I saw the attack I stopped reading the op just looked at replies

 

[Whispered]

I never said the Letter from Margaret MacDonald was accurate because it is not, which is why the Pre-Trib doctrine is a false teaching.

You make a lot of hay against her so called doctrine and slander her mental health in your OP so as to now when confronted about that claim you never said it was accurate. If it isn't accurate, or you refuse to claim it is, then there is no purpose for your OP. If it isn't credible then you have no business slandering a dead woman and a letter that can't be qualified as genuine.

If you're against the pretribulation rapture, stake your claim yourself and prove your point. Which was fastly defeated already and early on in this thread with actual scripture.

 

[cv5]

Except those who come to faith following our Rapture.

Many will come to faith IN/DURING the trib years... AFTER our Rapture/THE Departure... and they will either die in the trib years OR endure unto the end as still-living persons to ENTER the MK age in mortal bodies [saints / believers / the BLESSED / the righteous only, will ENTER at is commencement point in time, that is, upon His "RETURN" to the earth; see Dan12:12's "BLESSED" for one example of this]. There is no "rapture" at that point in time--they will enter the earthly MK age without having lifted off the earth (many passages speak of this).

The "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)] (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"... it does not pertain to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)

Absolutely correct.

 

[cv5]

We are deep into the great tribulation and many don't even realize. That's the reason Jesus said it will be like Noah and Lot's days, people will be merrying, drinking and partying, marrying and being given for marriage. There's not going to be a 7 year or 3.5 year period where these things will not be happening.

Absolutely incorrect. The GT begins ONLY AFTER when the "man of sin" is revealed......probably becoming evident when he makes the peace treaty with Israel.

The pre-trib rapture occurs BEFORE this event.

 

[Noose]

Absolutely incorrect. The GT begins ONLY AFTER when the "man of sin" is revealed......probably becoming evident when he makes the peace treaty with Israel.

The pre-trib rapture occurs BEFORE this event.

I'll encourage you to read more.

It is about a timeline and most importantly, understanding this timeline; not about people appearing or doing anything.
If you can't follow Daniel's 70 weeks up to the moment we are living, then forget about people appearing and signing some documents.

And there's no rapture at all.

 

[JamOn]

those left will be doing something for seven years

Ezekiel 39

6I will send fire against Magog and those who dwell securely in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the LORD. 7So I will make My holy name known among My people Israel and will no longer allow it to be profaned. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. 8Yes, it is coming, and it will surely happen, declares the Lord GOD. This is the day of which I have spoken.

9Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out, kindle fires, and burn up the weapons—the bucklers and shields, the bows and arrows, the clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel. 10They will not gather wood from the countryside or cut it from the forests, for they will use the weapons for fuel. They will loot those who looted them and plunder those who plundered them, declares the Lord GOD.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I disagree
I will not be raptured before Abraham or issac or Jeremiah or King David. We will be resurrected at the same time

You may continue to disagree, but I place this here for the readers' consideration: They were not promised "Rapture." They were promised "Resurrection" [(definition) 'to stand again on the earth'], and this was something all OT saints WELL-KNEW (see Job's words in Job 19:25-27; see what Daniel was told in Daniel 12:13 ['thou shalt rest [that is, in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [that is, be resurrected to stand again on the earth] at the END of the days [at the END of a very specific set of days referred to in that context, i.e. at the END of the trib years]"; see Martha's words in John 11:24... "Resurrection" is what they all WELL-KNEW! [THAT is what was promised to THEM, they will be resurrected to be present for the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, i.e. the "G347 shall sit down [around a table / at a meal]" (the MK age)]).

Paul was tasked with informing "the Church which is His body" of that which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)], which was him DISCLOSING "a mystery" not theretofore having been disclosed! [b/c it doesn't pertain to other saints of OTHER time periods].)



[I've made posts b/f re: 1Cor15:23's "[re: resurrection] but each [a word meaning 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER" meaning there doesn't remain only ONE, but that there is a SEQUENCE/ORDER to it]

 

[7seasrekeyed]

IMO when someone creates a stupid...yes you heard me I said stupid...title such as the one with this op, it should be edited

maybe they had a bad night's sleep

 

[tanakh]

Yet you compared them with non christians

And if people say if your not protein then you are lost they are wrong and part of the problem not the solution

Why can’t people just discuss? Why do we have to attack others? You can deny it all you want but you did that very thing

I fail to see what Protein has to do with anything . Where did I say that Pre Tribbers were lost? I didnt compare them with none Christians I was comparing them with people who sincerely believe they have a correct understanding of scripture regarding a doctrine
but haven't A none Christian is someone who has another religion entirely such as a Hindu or Buddhist or anything else apart from Christianity. What I am talking about is a false interpretation of a doctrine. I am ''just discussing'' How I see it is that some cant
bare to conceive of anyone else holding a different view and airing it. It may surprise you but the timing of the rapture is not a salvation issue, but many seem to think it is and go to great lengths trying to convert others to their way of thinking.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You may continue to disagree, but I place this here for the readers' consideration: They were not promised "Rapture." They were promised "Resurrection" [(definition) 'to stand again on the earth'], and this was something all OT saints WELL-KNEW (see Job's words in Job 19:25-27; see what Daniel was told in Daniel 12:13 ['thou shalt rest [that is, in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [that is, be resurrected to stand again on the earth] at the END of the days [at the END of a very specific set of days referred to in that context, i.e. at the END of the trib years]"; see Martha's words in John 11:24... "Resurrection" is what they all WELL-KNEW! [THAT is what was promised to THEM, they will be resurrected to be present for the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, i.e. the "G347 shall sit down [around a table / at a meal]" (the MK age)]).

Paul was tasked with informing "the Church which is His body" of that which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)], which was him DISCLOSING "a mystery" not theretofore having been disclosed! [b/c it doesn't pertain to other saints of OTHER time periods].)



[I've made posts b/f re: 1Cor15:23's "[re: resurrection] but each [a word meaning 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER" meaning there doesn't remain only ONE, but that there is a SEQUENCE/ORDER to it]

Rapture is a term taken from the Latin word (raptus it raptura) in scripture which states at the resurrection we will be “caught up” with the lord

It is the resurrection.

Hence your argument is flawed