Is hell just a tomb or a place for soul?

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watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
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#1
Many teaches that the rich man and lazarus story was just parable and thus soul sleep.
Act 2:31 KJV He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
In this passage, is this talking about the soul of Jesus was in hell?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,248
30,368
113
#2
It is a well known fact that he King James version of Scriptures improperly translates at least four different words into "hell." Yes, it is Jesus Who is being referred to in the passage you questioned. The Messiah/Christ is explicitly specified.

Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah that he
was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.
NIV

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his
soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
KJB
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,609
3,633
113
#4
Many teaches that the rich man and lazarus story was just parable and thus soul sleep.
Act 2:31 KJV He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
In this passage, is this talking about the soul of Jesus was in hell?
Yes Jesus went to Hell to preach to the souls in prison there..

1 Peter 3: KJV
18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: {19} By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; {20} Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Yeah there are many who want to attack and undermine the KJV as being faulty.. They will have to stand before God one day and attempt to justify themselves..
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
113
#5
Many teaches that the rich man and lazarus story was just parable and thus soul sleep.
Act 2:31 KJV He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
In this passage, is this talking about the soul of Jesus was in hell?
Hello Watcher2013!

I, without a doubt, believe that the rich man and Lazarus was a literal event that Jesus was recounting prior to His appearing in the flesh.

Parables use symbolism to represent what is literal. For example, in the parable of the weeds and wheat, the sower is the Son of Man, the field is the world, the good seed represents sons of the kingdom, the weeds represent the wicked, the harvesters are the angels and the harvest is the end of the age, etc. In opposition, the rich man and Lazarus uses the literal names of Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, mentions the prophets and his five brothers, as well as the literal name of Hades. There is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to interpret this event as being a parable. To do so, would be to distort or nullify the information that Jesus wanted us to know. And what does this information tell us? That both the rich man and Lazarus both died and yet their spirits were conscious and aware in Hades.

"One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

One would have to be conscious and aware in order to experience torment. But how can that be when it states that he just died?

Since it was stated that the rich man was in Hades in torment and he could see Abraham and Lazarus at by his side, then we can conclude that they were in the same location. Within the context it is stated that there was a great chasm/gap fixed in between them so that no one could cross over from either side. The side that Abraham and Lazarus were on was said to be a place of comfort. While on the other side of the chasm, the rich man was said to be in torment in flame.

"But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are in agony."

Once a soul dies in his sins and goes down into Hades, there is no getting out or second chances:

============================================================
‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also end up in this place of torment.’

29But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’

30‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’

31Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
===========================================================

Notice that the rich man did not ask why he was in that place of torment, for Lazarus was as Abraham's side to remind him of his lack of love and compassion. He knew that he deserved to be there and his only concern was to send Lazarus back from the dead to warn his five brother so that they would believe and repent to keep them from going to that same place of torment.

This information also shows that the spirit is conscious and aware after the death of the body and there is a place of punishment. The only time that those who are in Hades will be released, is at the great white throne judgment, where they will be resurrected and stand before God for their official judgment. After that anyone's name not found in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, separated from the glory of the Lord eternally conscious and aware.

There is no such thing as soul-sleep
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#6
In this passage, is this talking about the soul of Jesus was in hell?
First of all the word "hell" has been MISAPPLIED throughout the KJV. It has been applied to Sheol/Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus indiscriminately. Also Sheol has been called "the grave" incorrectly. And there is no such thing as Soul Sleep.

Jesus went to SHEOL/HADES for three days and three nights. Which means that His soul and spirit were in the region of the departed spirits, which is located in "the heart of the earth" or "the lower parts of the earth" or the core of the earth.

Hell, which is Gehenna in Greek, and also called the Lake of Fire, has never been occupied. It is located in outer darkness and will begin to be occupied when the unholy Trinity (Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet) are cast into it. That will be after the battle of Armageddon.

Also, the Bottomless Pit is neither Hades nor Gehenna. It is a region reserved for demonic spirits who will be let loose at a specific time.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
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www.christiancourier.com
#7
Many teaches that the rich man and lazarus story was just parable and thus soul sleep.
Act 2:31 KJV He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
In this passage, is this talking about the soul of Jesus was in hell?
The foundation of the New Covenant/Testament is the Old Covenant/Testament. You might seek out in a keyword search these terms: original bible there was no Hell

 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
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#8
Hell: Origins of an Idea

Richard Burky Jeannette B. Anderson

Many religious groups portray God as a being who tortures people eternally for their sins. But how can anyone worship a god who sets up fallible humans to be forever tormented in hell?


“The Greek word Hades is sometimes, but misleadingly, translated “hell” in English versions of the New Testament. It refers to the place of the dead but not necessarily to a place of torment of the wicked dead.”​
Anchor Bible Dictionary, S.V. “Hades, Hell”​
...
Back to the Bible

Pagan cultures and philosophies have contributed greatly to modern concepts of hell. But what does the Bible itself say on the subject?

In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word often translated as “hell” is sheol, though it actually means “the grave.” The Bible teaches that when we die, we simply go to the grave (see Psalm 49:10–11 and Ecclesiastes 3:19–20). The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible comments, “Nowhere in the Old Testament is the abode of the dead regarded as a place of punishment or torment. The concept of an infernal ‘hell’ developed in Israel only during the Hellenistic period” (beginning in the fourth century B.C.E.). Greek religious and philosophical ideas, including those of Aristotle and Plato, became influential throughout the region during that time. Merriam-Webster’s Encyclopedia of World Religions points out that “many formal aspects of Hellenistic religion . . . persist in the Jewish and Christian traditions today.”

In the New Testament, we find that there are three Greek words translated as “hell.” The one most often used in the Gospels is gehenna, referring to the Gehenna Valley, or the Valley of Hinnom. Just outside the walls of Jerusalem, in Jesus’ day it was where the local population dumped and burned trash.

“The New Testament does not describe the torment of Gehenna or portray Satan as the lord of Gehenna. These are later literary accoutrements.”​
Anchor Bible Dictionary, S.V. “Hades, Gehenna”'​

The valley is first mentioned in Joshua 15:8: “Then the boundary goes up by the Valley of the Son of Hinnom at the southern shoulder of the Jebusite (that is, Jerusalem).” At this time Jerusalem was in the hands of the Jebusites, and the valley marked the boundary between the lands inherited by two of the sons of Jacob—also known as Israel—namely, Judah and Benjamin.


The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says that the Gehenna Valley “acquired a bad reputation because sacrifices were offered in it to Moloch in the days of Ahaz and Manasseh [kings of Judah]. . . . The Valley of Hinnom came to be equated with the hell of the last judgment in apocalyptic literature”—extrabiblical Jewish writings—“from the second century B.C. . . . The name gehinnom thus came to be used for the eschatological fire of hell. This is the stage of development reflected in the New Testament. In the first century A.D. the term was further extended to cover the place where the ungodly were punished in the intermediate state, but this is not so in the New Testament” (emphasis added). It goes on to say, “In the New Testament there is no description of the torments of hell as in apocalyptic literature,” which later came to include Christian writings as well.


Again, to understand the source of the idea that people are tortured in an ever-burning hell, we have to go outside the Scriptures. That should send up a red flag for anyone who regards the Bible as his or her source of belief.


As already noted, the Hinnom Valley had taken on negative connotations over the years. According to Jeremiah 7, the Israelite inhabitants of the region had erected idols in the temple of God, and in the adjacent valley they had set up altars to these false gods. They had even burned their children on these altars to appease the pagan gods.


In Jeremiah 19:4–7, the prophet offers this message from God: “‘Because the people have forsaken me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, and have built high places to Baal to burn their sons in fire as burnt offerings to Baal, . . . therefore, behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when this place shall no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter. And in this place I will make void the plans of Judah and Jerusalem, and will cause their people to fall by the sword before their enemies . . . ; I will give their dead bodies for food to the birds of the air and to the beasts of the earth.”


This is how Gehenna was known in Jeremiah’s day. In the New Testament, the word gehenna is generally used in references to the final destruction of evildoers. Jesus said, “Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell”—gehenna (Matthew 10:28). In other words, people can kill you, but they can kill only the body. Don’t fear them; fear the One who can put an end to you forever.


Jesus used the word in other situations as well, always alluding to that burning trash heap as a metaphor for the ultimate demise of the incorrigibly wicked.

The Keys of Death and Hades

Another New Testament Greek word translated as “hell” is hades: the place of the departed, the grave, like sheol in the Old Testament. For example, in Matthew 11:23 Jesus says: “And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades.” The city wasn’t going to be tormented forever; it was going to be put into the grave—destroyed....Continues
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
108
63
#9
What are your opinion then when the witch of endor call up the spirit of samuel? was it it really samuel?
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
108
63
#10
Hell: Origins of an Idea

Richard Burky Jeannette B. Anderson

Many religious groups portray God as a being who tortures people eternally for their sins. But how can anyone worship a god who sets up fallible humans to be forever tormented in hell?


“The Greek word Hades is sometimes, but misleadingly, translated “hell” in English versions of the New Testament. It refers to the place of the dead but not necessarily to a place of torment of the wicked dead.”​
Anchor Bible Dictionary, S.V. “Hades, Hell”​
...
Back to the Bible

Pagan cultures and philosophies have contributed greatly to modern concepts of hell. But what does the Bible itself say on the subject?

In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word often translated as “hell” is sheol, though it actually means “the grave.” The Bible teaches that when we die, we simply go to the grave (see Psalm 49:10–11 and Ecclesiastes 3:19–20). The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible comments, “Nowhere in the Old Testament is the abode of the dead regarded as a place of punishment or torment. The concept of an infernal ‘hell’ developed in Israel only during the Hellenistic period” (beginning in the fourth century B.C.E.). Greek religious and philosophical ideas, including those of Aristotle and Plato, became influential throughout the region during that time. Merriam-Webster’s Encyclopedia of World Religions points out that “many formal aspects of Hellenistic religion . . . persist in the Jewish and Christian traditions today.”

In the New Testament, we find that there are three Greek words translated as “hell.” The one most often used in the Gospels is gehenna, referring to the Gehenna Valley, or the Valley of Hinnom. Just outside the walls of Jerusalem, in Jesus’ day it was where the local population dumped and burned trash.

“The New Testament does not describe the torment of Gehenna or portray Satan as the lord of Gehenna. These are later literary accoutrements.”​
Anchor Bible Dictionary, S.V. “Hades, Gehenna”'​

The valley is first mentioned in Joshua 15:8: “Then the boundary goes up by the Valley of the Son of Hinnom at the southern shoulder of the Jebusite (that is, Jerusalem).” At this time Jerusalem was in the hands of the Jebusites, and the valley marked the boundary between the lands inherited by two of the sons of Jacob—also known as Israel—namely, Judah and Benjamin.


The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says that the Gehenna Valley “acquired a bad reputation because sacrifices were offered in it to Moloch in the days of Ahaz and Manasseh [kings of Judah]. . . . The Valley of Hinnom came to be equated with the hell of the last judgment in apocalyptic literature”—extrabiblical Jewish writings—“from the second century B.C. . . . The name gehinnom thus came to be used for the eschatological fire of hell. This is the stage of development reflected in the New Testament. In the first century A.D. the term was further extended to cover the place where the ungodly were punished in the intermediate state, but this is not so in the New Testament” (emphasis added). It goes on to say, “In the New Testament there is no description of the torments of hell as in apocalyptic literature,” which later came to include Christian writings as well.


Again, to understand the source of the idea that people are tortured in an ever-burning hell, we have to go outside the Scriptures. That should send up a red flag for anyone who regards the Bible as his or her source of belief.


As already noted, the Hinnom Valley had taken on negative connotations over the years. According to Jeremiah 7, the Israelite inhabitants of the region had erected idols in the temple of God, and in the adjacent valley they had set up altars to these false gods. They had even burned their children on these altars to appease the pagan gods.


In Jeremiah 19:4–7, the prophet offers this message from God: “‘Because the people have forsaken me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, and have built high places to Baal to burn their sons in fire as burnt offerings to Baal, . . . therefore, behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when this place shall no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter. And in this place I will make void the plans of Judah and Jerusalem, and will cause their people to fall by the sword before their enemies . . . ; I will give their dead bodies for food to the birds of the air and to the beasts of the earth.”


This is how Gehenna was known in Jeremiah’s day. In the New Testament, the word gehenna is generally used in references to the final destruction of evildoers. Jesus said, “Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell”—gehenna (Matthew 10:28). In other words, people can kill you, but they can kill only the body. Don’t fear them; fear the One who can put an end to you forever.


Jesus used the word in other situations as well, always alluding to that burning trash heap as a metaphor for the ultimate demise of the incorrigibly wicked.

The Keys of Death and Hades

Another New Testament Greek word translated as “hell” is hades: the place of the departed, the grave, like sheol in the Old Testament. For example, in Matthew 11:23 Jesus says: “And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades.” The city wasn’t going to be tormented forever; it was going to be put into the grave—destroyed....Continues
Did the Old testament believed in the Holy spirit? And that the holy spirit is a also a He?
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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#11
Did the Old testament believed in the Holy spirit? And that the holy spirit is a also a He?
God is a spirit. God isn't actually the name of Holy Spirit, it is a title. Some say, and I agree, that "God" is a verb as well as a noun. God is without gender. It is a sign of the times when the patriarchs were writing scripture to give a masculine descriptive of an ethereal power that is Holy Spirit. Then, in Jesus The Word became flesh, male. Largely because a woman would not be received as the prophesied Messiah.

And yes, Holy Spirit was in the Old Testament. Of course. :)
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
108
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#12
God is a spirit. God isn't actually the name of Holy Spirit, it is a title. Some say, and I agree, that "God" is a verb as well as a noun. God is without gender. It is a sign of the times when the patriarchs were writing scripture to give a masculine descriptive of an ethereal power that is Holy Spirit. Then, in Jesus The Word became flesh, male. Largely because a woman would not be received as the prophesied Messiah.

And yes, Holy Spirit was in the Old Testament. Of course. :)
Is the Holy Spirit God?
 

Kolistus

Well-known member
Feb 3, 2020
538
276
63
#16
The rich man opened his eyes in hell. Doesn't sound like the tomb.

Its a real place. Read it, believe it, receive it.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
108
63
#17
Why do you employ the lower case "j" when you write the word, jews?
Before becoming monotheists the Jews were polytheists. There is only one God.
Is it wrong to employ lowercase? Polytheist??? Ate u talking about when they wwere in egypt?
If you said the holy spirit is God and in the OT. Why they believed in one God?
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
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#18
Is it wrong to employ lowercase? Polytheist??? Ate u talking about when they wwere in egypt?
If you said the holy spirit is God and in the OT. Why they believed in one God?
Becoming Monotheists was a gradual process.

"...The Bible also recounts that the ancient Hebrews worshipped a god named Moloch, who was associated with the Ammonites and with child sacrifice. This worship too was stamped out by Josiah in the same reform (e.g. 2 Kings 23:10).


The historic books of the Bible were written by a “Yahweh only party” and are thus keenly critical of the worship of other gods in Judah. Still, it is clear from their description that polytheism was the norm in the First Temple period. It was only during King Josiah’s reform that the "Yahweh only party" really took control and began pushing other gods out of Judean minds.


But note that they didn't claim other gods did not exist. They only stated that their worship was forbidden by Yahweh, or as Exodus 34:14 has it: "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."


It was apparently only during the Babylonian Exile (about 586 B.C.E. to 500 B.C.E) and the following Second Temple period (500 B.C.E. to 70 C.E.), that Judaism progressed from the belief that Yahweh is the only god that should be worshipped, to the belief that he is the only god that exists. I.e., monotheism was born.


This view is stated clearly in the words of Second Isaiah written at the very end of the Exilic period and the very beginning of the Second Temple period: “This is what the Lord says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6)."(End of excerpt and article found at this link:When the Jews Believed in Other Gods The bible is rife with references to deities other than Yahweh: The prophets didn't deny these gods existed, they just didn't think Jews should worship them By Elon Gilad Jul 26, 2018


And if interested this is a more in depth study from the Journal at U of Chicago. It may not load right in your browser so opening in a Adobe PDF format should work. [Capitalization is per the paper itself]
WERE THE ISRAELITES EVER POLYTHEISTS? By REV. ARTHUR E. WHATHAM, Way's Mills, Ontario, Canada.
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.1086/472463
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
108
63
#19
Becoming Monotheists was a gradual process.

"...The Bible also recounts that the ancient Hebrews worshipped a god named Moloch, who was associated with the Ammonites and with child sacrifice. This worship too was stamped out by Josiah in the same reform (e.g. 2 Kings 23:10).


The historic books of the Bible were written by a “Yahweh only party” and are thus keenly critical of the worship of other gods in Judah. Still, it is clear from their description that polytheism was the norm in the First Temple period. It was only during King Josiah’s reform that the "Yahweh only party" really took control and began pushing other gods out of Judean minds.


But note that they didn't claim other gods did not exist. They only stated that their worship was forbidden by Yahweh, or as Exodus 34:14 has it: "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."


It was apparently only during the Babylonian Exile (about 586 B.C.E. to 500 B.C.E) and the following Second Temple period (500 B.C.E. to 70 C.E.), that Judaism progressed from the belief that Yahweh is the only god that should be worshipped, to the belief that he is the only god that exists. I.e., monotheism was born.


This view is stated clearly in the words of Second Isaiah written at the very end of the Exilic period and the very beginning of the Second Temple period: “This is what the Lord says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6)."(End of excerpt and article found at this link:When the Jews Believed in Other Gods The bible is rife with references to deities other than Yahweh: The prophets didn't deny these gods existed, they just didn't think Jews should worship them By Elon Gilad Jul 26, 2018


And if interested this is a more in depth study from the Journal at U of Chicago. It may not load right in your browser so opening in a Adobe PDF format should work. [Capitalization is per the paper itself]
WERE THE ISRAELITES EVER POLYTHEISTS? By REV. ARTHUR E. WHATHAM, Way's Mills, Ontario, Canada.
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.1086/472463
You seems to jump forward...
Let start with the 10 commandments...
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#20
Many teaches that the rich man and lazarus story was just parable and thus soul sleep.
Act 2:31 KJV He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
In this passage, is this talking about the soul of Jesus was in hell?
Hell is the living tribulation we go through daily. living in a body of death . It is the wrath of God revealed from heaven. A dying corrupted creation living out its death sentence .

The parable in Luke 16 speaks to another subject matter .It does not define hell .But does define necromancy .That in which the Rich man sought after and refused to hear God when he said no way. . .He wanted God to send a couple of dead saints as disembodied workers with familiar spirits (a abomination) to appear on earth.

Christ told the Rich man in that parable. If those brothers who the Rich man wanted God to send Lazarus to do not get under the authority of all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) Then they would not believe even if one could raise from the dead. Nothing to with defining hell .

Which again is defined as "by reason of suffering" Not be reason of being dead not breathing .But a living work. or with Christ a living breathing sacrifice. The father kept the body from corrupting as in death for three days. Four days for Lazarus not used in a parable like Luke it was kept from corruption for a different purpose.

Hell is defined clearly using the living affliction of Jonas .A parallel parable to Jesus in the garden. The beginning of his three part demonstration of the heart of the earth, or belly of the whale. Literal hell as payment of violating the letter of the law. thou shall surely die not suffer forever as if God had no mercy. But rather a God of eternal revenge.

Its appointed for all of mankind to die once suffering is part of it. His yoke is easy or easier. .He gives us a future living hope .Unlike that of hopeless, faithless mankind. They need the gospel of hope.

Jonas in a work of suffering asked for strength to come out of the great affliction .God heard him, worked with Him they finished the work brought them to Nineveh . Then Jonas obeyed and preached the gospel to teach us God is not served by human hands. After many repented at the power of the gospel Jonas wanted to die.

Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV)Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

In that way God does not hear the dead. He must first give them ears to hear and a willing heart to do the work of beleiving. we should do so without murmuring

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Philipians2:13-14

Do the work of encouragement. Discourage murmurings. To some remove the log from ones own understanding and do the first works of God working in us. . . believe God not seen .In John 6 we are informed it is the work of God working in us that we can make it possible to believe or have faith, not of ourselves.