Not By Works

[Elihoenai]

And this perfection is what?
If it's perfection when and how do we reach it?
If we do not reach it then what?
If we seek it and do not reach it then what?

Dont fob the questions with just Bible verses but examples.
You obviously think you are God true disciple unlike many on here you have said are of satan.

That being the the case why?

Matthew 19:21 King James Version (KJV)

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.


To be Perfect, further to obeying the Law of Moses you must sell all you have and give to the poor.

 

[Tellion]

Why stop at v19?

Let's look at the following

Mark 10:17-22

Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler
(Matt. 19:16–22; Luke 18:18–23)
17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
19 You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”
20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Notice that Jesus loved him but lacked one thing.
This guy kept all the things in v19 but it was not enough.

Here are the 10 commandments

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall make no idols.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

You have neglected to post 1-4

Matthew 19:21 King James Version (KJV)

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.


To be Perfect, further to obeying the Law of Moses you must sell all you have and give to the poor.

I wonder what would happen if you understood the word "context." I bet you'd learn the butler did it.

 

[Elihoenai]

Why stop at v19?

Let's look at the following

Mark 10:17-22

Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler
(Matt. 19:16–22; Luke 18:18–23)
17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
19 You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”
20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Notice that Jesus loved him but lacked one thing.
This guy kept all the things in v19 but it was not enough.

Here are the 10 commandments

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall make no idols.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

You have neglected to post 1-4

Amen!!! You must go further to be Perfect by selling all you have and giving to the poor.

 

[Elihoenai]

You're mixing them up with The Knights of Columbus.

The very clever confuse people by giving themselves a multitude of different names. Knights Templars are Freemasons!

 

[Elihoenai]

NO HE DID NOT!

HE SAID "IF YOU LOVE ME" WHICH IS BORN AGAIN, THAT IS GOD'S AGAPE LOVE, ROM. 5:5, THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT POURED INTO OUR HEARTS OR THE HUMAN SPIRIT. OUT OF THAT CHANGE IN THE HUMAN SPIRIT, OUR NEW NATURE {BORN AGAIN}, WE WILL WANT TO LOVE HIM BACK, BY STRIVING TO KEEP, which the GREEK VERB TENSE OF KEEP, makes it CLEAR: will keep My commands.


John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.


The Difference is YOU imply you Have to KEEP THEM,
AND THE TRUTH IS IF YOU HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN, AND IF YOU LOVE HIM WITH THAT SAME KIND OF AGAPE LOVE HE PUT IN YOU,
YOU WILL WANT TO STRIVE TO KEEP HIS COMMANDS AS AN ACT OF AGAPE LOVE.

You cannot keep HIS Commands Perfectly, and Jame 2:10 tells you if you fail one time, that you are GUILTY OF THE WHOLE LAW!

James 2:10 (HCSB)
10 For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of ⌊breaking it⌋ all.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

Romans 3:20 (NKJV)
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:12 (HCSB)
12 All have turned away; all alike have become useless. There is no one who does what is good, not even one.

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king. [.That is President Donald Trump, if you are an American.]

View attachment 211880

Any time you exceed the POSTED SPEED LIMIT,
according to JAMES 2:10, you are GUILTY OF THE ENTIRE LAW!

DEEDS will NEVER earn a Ticket to HEAVEN, NOT EVEN PART OF IT!

JESUS PAID OUR SIN DEPT IN FULL. We can only AGAPE LOVE HIM BACK.

Acts 7:39 King James Version (KJV)

39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,


Those Scriptures are much appreciated. Keeping the Commandments of Elohim/God proves Love towards Elohim/God.

 

[Elihoenai]

Do you sin?

Do you obey the law?

Still trolling this thread?

What is all important is establishing the True Teachings of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ.

 

[Elihoenai]

Yes they exist.
Perhaps they some power ... not sure
However not the point.
Not sure you understand the will of God either

Missed your post. If you do the research, you should arrive at the certain conclusion that the Knights Templars are Freemasons.

 

[BillG]

I wonder what would happen if you understood the word "context." I bet you'd learn the butler did it.

Who?
Me?

 

[Tellion]

Who?
Me?

Nope. You're good.

 

[Judges1318]

Doubt is the leaven of belief. It makes a continuous belief imperfect.

Doubt in the believers life is not the same as unbelief. I mean, it doesn't have to be the same.

I firmly believe that my sins are forgiven and I am changed. I can't deny that reality in my heart and in my life. And I value it above everything else . This life in me is real. But sometimes doubt creeps in as to whether what's going on in me is from everything the Bible says it is from and not just the result of hormones, or chemistry, or the tendencies for man to invent realities in his own mind. But faith in what has actually happened in him is not what is in doubt. Faith in that is not up for compromise with me. It's a non-negotiable for me because I know it's real and I value it.

 

[Tellion]

Doubt in the believers life is not the same as unbelief. I mean, it doesn't have to be the same.

I firmly believe that my sins are forgiven and I am changed. I can't deny that reality in my heart and in my life. And I value it above everything else . This life in me is real. But sometimes doubt creeps in as to whether what's going on in me is from everything the Bible says it is from and not just the result of hormones, or chemistry, or the tendencies for man to invent realities in his own mind. But faith in what has actually happened in him is not what is in doubt. Faith in that is not up for compromise with me. It's a non-negotiable for me because I know it's real and I value it.

You're waffling again. If you have no willful control over your belief, then it is not out of an obligation, but something that is done to you. Either by nature or by the will of God. It can't be said "you need to do" because if you don't "will" your belief, your belief just is, no cause from within any decision you make.

 

[Tellion]

You're waffling again. If you have no willful control over your belief, then it is not out of an obligation, but something that is done to you. Either by nature or by the will of God. It can't be said "you need to do" because if you don't "will" your belief, your belief just is, no cause from within any decision you make.

Mind you, I recognize the command to believe, to have faith, among all the other commands. When Peter sank, a lack of continuing belief, you might say continuing faith, he was restored in his belief again, calling out to his Redeemer and was rescued by Him who maintains a perfect faith. But if Peters belief in Christ is not optional, how could he have done anything else?

 

[VCO]

Will this work.

Acts 7:39 King James Version (KJV)

39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,


Those Scriptures are much appreciated. Keeping the Commandments of Elohim/God proves Love towards Elohim/God.

WRONG! IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN, THE MOTIVE FOR KEEPING! IF IT IS NOT OUT OF A DEEP, REVERENT AGAPE LOVE FOR HIM, IT IS AS WORTHLESS AS WOOD, HAY, AND STUBBLE, OR FILTHY RAGS TO HIM.

LOOK AT THE ALL THE WORKS DONE BY THESE PEOPLE, AND BECAUSE THE MOTIVE WAS WRONG, THESE PEOPLE WERE REJECTED BY THE LORD HIMSELF:

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


That is Born Again, and if you do not have that inner, personal, Agape LOVE relationship with HIM FIRST. ALL YOUR WORKS WILL BE DONE FOR THE WRONG MOTIVE. THOSE DEEDS HAVE TO BE DONE only BECAUSE YOU AGAPE LOVE HIM, THAT SAME LOVE THAT HE POURED IN YOUR HEART. IT WILL BE REJECTED.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Psalm 44:21 (HCSB)
21 wouldn’t God have found this out, since He knows the secrets of the heart?

Jeremiah 17:10 (HCSB)
10 I, Yahweh, examine the mind, I test the heart to give to each according to his way, according to what his actions deserve.

1 Chronicles 28:9 (HCSB)
9 “As for you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands the intention of every thought. If you seek Him, He will be found by you, but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

Romans 8:27 (NKJV)
27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Revelation 2:23 (HCSB)
23 I will kill her children with the plague. Then all the churches will know that I am the One who examines minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your works.

 

[Tellion]

You're waffling again. If you have no willful control over your belief, then it is not out of an obligation, but something that is done to you. Either by nature or by the will of God. It can't be said "you need to do" because if you don't "will" your belief, your belief just is, no cause from within any decision you make.

Okay, any time here I exclude "need", I state it erroneously. I absolutely recognize the obligation of belief, but since you are denying the connection between will and belief, I'm pointing out that it contradicts your original point of "maintaining your own belief"if it is not out of your own will that you do it.

 

[Judges1318]

You're waffling again. If you have no willful control over your belief, then it is not out of an obligation, but something that is done to you. Either by nature or by the will of God. It can't be said "you need to do" because if you don't "will" your belief, your belief just is, no cause from within any decision you make.

I actually typed, but then deleted, the part about continuing in faith is a decision that I make (with God's encouragement of course). The faith to know that what is inside of me is real comes from God. The decision to cling to it and not let it go is mine.

There's at least two reasons why some people do not continue to believe:

1) They never really believed in the first place.
2) They do not value what they have secured through their believing.

Number 2 is just as big a problem in the Western church today as number 1 is, IMO.

 

[Tellion]

I actually typed, but then deleted, the part about continuing in faith is a decision that I make (with God's encouragement of course). The faith to know that what is inside of me is real comes from God. The decision to cling to it and not let it go is mine.

There's at least two reasons why some people do not continue to believe:

1) They never really believed in the first place.
2) They do not value what they have secured through their believing.

Number 2 is just as big a problem in the Western church today as number 1 is, IMO.

So.... You do believe that belief requires will or you don't?

 

[Judges1318]

pointing out that it contradicts your original point of "maintaining your own belief"if it is not out of your own will that you do it.

I hope that is clarified now.
Trust in Christ just doesn't show up by itself and force itself on a person. That is a choice you must make.
The faith upon which that decision is made, yes, that just shows up by itself, even forcing itself into the heart of a person. But what a person then does with what God shows them to be true through the power of faith, that is up to the person.

 

[VCO]

Acts 7:39 King James Version (KJV)

39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,


Those Scriptures are much appreciated. Keeping the Commandments of Elohim/God proves Love towards Elohim/God.

CAN YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? It is NOT that you do them, IT IS OUR OF AGAPE LOVE ONLY, that you do them.

 

[Judges1318]

So.... You do believe that belief requires will or you don't?

You can't will yourself to know without doubt something is true.
You can only will yourself to accept and trust in what God shows you to be true.
But even then, only because God clears the obstacles for you to do that trusting.

 

[Tellion]

I hope that is clarified now.
Trust in Christ just doesn't show up by itself and force itself on a person. That is a choice you must make.
The faith upon which that decision is made, yes, that just shows up by itself, even forcing itself into the heart of a person. But what a person then does with what God shows them to be true through the power of faith, that is up to the person.

Allow me to rephrase. If at any point belief becomes an act of will, it then becomes a work, on the basis of sheer effort it requires to maintain a belief that may dissolve.