The Age of the Universe

[JohnR7]

This is coming up in multiple posts. It would be a lot easier to give the topic it's own thread. According to Dr. Gerald Schroeder "The world may be only some 6000 years old. God could have put the fossils in the ground and juggled the light arriving from distant galaxies to make the world appear to be billions of years old. There is absolutely no way to disprove this claim. God being infinite could have made the world that way. There is another possible approach that also agrees with the ancient commentators’ description of God and nature. The world may be young and old simultaneously."

First of all we have to deal with the word: "choshech." in Genesis 1:2: "Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters." So there was no light before we had day, yet there was still the "surface of the waters". Also we are talking about the "earth" and we know that the universe has been around a lot longer than the earth.

If Choshech is to difficult for people to deal with. That clearly there was something here before day one, we still have to deal with day one. "Each day of creation is numbered. Yet there is discontinuity in the way the days are numbered. The verse says: "There is evening and morning, Day One." But the second day doesn't say "evening and morning, Day Two." Rather, it says "evening and morning, a second day." And the Torah continues with this pattern: "Evening and morning, a third day... a fourth day... a fifth day... the sixth day." Only on the first day does the text use a different form: not "first day," but "Day One" ("Yom Echad"). Many English translations make the mistake of writing "a first day." That's because editors want things to be nice and consistent. But they throw out the cosmic message in the text! Because there is a qualitative difference, as Nachmanides says, between "one" and "first." One is absolute; first is comparative.

Nachmanides explains that on Day One, time was created. That's a phenomenal insight. Time was created. You can't grab time. You don't even see it. You can see space, you can see matter, you can feel energy, you can see light energy. I understand a creation there. But the creation of time? Eight hundred years ago, Nachmanides attained this insight from the Torah's use of the phrase, "Day One." And that's exactly what Einstein taught us in the Laws of Relativity: that there was a creation, not just of space and matter, but of time itself."

https://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

 

[Dino246]

According to Dr. Gerald Schroeder "The world may be only some 6000 years old. God could have put the fossils in the ground and juggled the light arriving from distant galaxies to make the world appear to be billions of years old. There is absolutely no way to disprove this claim. God being infinite could have made the world that way.

There may not be a way (yet) to disprove this claim, but there is an easy way to refute it: it requires God to be lying to us, and the Bible tells us that God does not lie (Numbers 23:19; Hebrews 6:18).

Also we are talking about the "earth" and we know that the universe has been around a lot longer than the earth.

No, we don't "know" that; scientists have told us that, and we have accepted it without adequate examination.

 

[Dave-L]

I believe the universe is as old as evidence suggests it is. And the earth and stars are as old as the bible says they are. And without contradiction. What we see is God's eternal decree made visible by the creation of matter some 6,000 years ago. That made much of it visible. Fossils, distant galaxies and all. Something like metal shavings tossed on a paper with a magnet below. Making the invisible visible when added to it.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

One of the best arguments for God is the cosmological argument. A old Earth to me makes more sense and within scripture. Technically we are still in the 7th day of the creation account. That at least makes 1 day 10000 or more years.

Gods days are different than ours. And the Hebrew language of day had different meanings.

But all of this doesn't affect the message of soul salvation.

 

[JohnR7]

No, we don't "know" that; scientists have told us that, and we have accepted it without adequate examination.

If you look at Neil DeGrasse Tyson's book: "Astrophysics for People in Hurry" there is a lot that this Cosmos Host expects us to swallow hook - line & sinker. People do just that because even as a fantasy it is so fantastic and amazing. He starts off saying the universe starts out one-trillionth the size of the period that ends this sentence. Clearly he wants to out perform Nachmanides who 1,000 years ago said that the universe started out the size of a mustard seed. Fact or fantasy it is a titillating thought. Even I had dream once where God was showing me that the universe expands and shrinks or contracts. Tyson goes on with this when he talks about how a millionth of a second had passed from the beginning. Is it true? Who cares it is fun and this all builds on what the Bible calls: The Beginning.

There is a little catch to all of this though. Science does some pretty amazing things. I can look at the GPS on my phone and it will tell the exact place where my phone is in my house. They can hit that phone with a missle and come within two or three feet of it. Even though the missile would destroy the whole house. They do this using trig, which I studied in college. But the math is actually so simple that a fifth grader can figure it out. Plus we do have photo from the Hubble of the early universe because of the amount of time it takes for light to get here. So there is evidence to back a lot of these claims up with. These people actually have PhD's. So they have studied this subject for a long time. Then a high school dropout comes along that puts no effort into anything and they want to try to argue science with the Phd. If they do not want to believe that is find. Their telephone is going to continue to work if the understand the science or not. The difference is how much money they get paid. Amazon starts computer programmer at $130,000 a year. Compared to $15 an hour for a warehouse worker or driver. That is fine, we need both and they are both functional, contributing members of society. But the person who knows science will be living in the nicer house, driving the newer car and taking better vacations. Because his contrabution is greater then the person that does not want to educate themselves.

 

[JohnR7]

Early universe

 

[RevelationMan]

This is coming up in multiple posts. It would be a lot easier to give the topic it's own thread. According to Dr. Gerald Schroeder "The world may be only some 6000 years old. God could have put the fossils in the ground and juggled the light arriving from distant galaxies to make the world appear to be billions of years old. There is absolutely no way to disprove this claim. God being infinite could have made the world that way. There is another possible approach that also agrees with the ancient commentators’ description of God and nature. The world may be young and old simultaneously."

First of all we have to deal with the word: "choshech." in Genesis 1:2: "Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters." So there was no light before we had day, yet there was still the "surface of the waters". Also we are talking about the "earth" and we know that the universe has been around a lot longer than the earth.

If Choshech is to difficult for people to deal with. That clearly there was something here before day one, we still have to deal with day one. "Each day of creation is numbered. Yet there is discontinuity in the way the days are numbered. The verse says: "There is evening and morning, Day One." But the second day doesn't say "evening and morning, Day Two." Rather, it says "evening and morning, a second day." And the Torah continues with this pattern: "Evening and morning, a third day... a fourth day... a fifth day... the sixth day." Only on the first day does the text use a different form: not "first day," but "Day One" ("Yom Echad"). Many English translations make the mistake of writing "a first day." That's because editors want things to be nice and consistent. But they throw out the cosmic message in the text! Because there is a qualitative difference, as Nachmanides says, between "one" and "first." One is absolute; first is comparative.

Nachmanides explains that on Day One, time was created. That's a phenomenal insight. Time was created. You can't grab time. You don't even see it. You can see space, you can see matter, you can feel energy, you can see light energy. I understand a creation there. But the creation of time? Eight hundred years ago, Nachmanides attained this insight from the Torah's use of the phrase, "Day One." And that's exactly what Einstein taught us in the Laws of Relativity: that there was a creation, not just of space and matter, but of time itself."

https://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

God's days are different than earth days. It is possible that in God's frame of reference creation happens quite rapidly but in earth time frame it was a very long time. This video shows one day in God's time frame from beginning to end but could be a very long time in earth's time frame.

http://mobilelaz.com/judgementday/creation.mp4

 

[JohnR7]

One of the best arguments for God is the cosmological argument. A old Earth to me makes more sense and within scripture. Technically we are still in the 7th day of the creation account. That at least makes 1 day 10000 or more years.

If we study Gerald Schroeder each day is half the length of the day before. There are lots of published creationists out there but very few of them come up with a model that is acceptable. Even Francis Collins highly respected model has more holes in it than swiss cheese. But he has not put that much time and effort into working on figureing it out. Where Schroeder depends on the Hasidic Kabbalists who have put huge amount of time and effort into understanding the Bible.

Gods days are different than ours. And the Hebrew language of day had different meanings.

But all of this doesn't affect the message of soul salvation.

No one puts more effort into that then the Hasidic people do.

https://www.joinallofus.org/en/vide...ame-changer-medical-research-and-human-health

 

[RevelationMan]

http://mobilelaz.com/judgementday/creationdays.png

 

[JohnR7]

What we see is God's eternal decree made visible by the creation of matter some 6,000 years ago.

What I say is that it took God 12.990 billion years to create Adam. Yet we find Adam 5,990 years ago in the Garden in Eden in the Tigris Euphrates river valley, in Ancient Mesopotamia. We have a time and a place. Just like when Jesus was born, we have a time and a place and the wise men figured it out and were there to greet him with gifts.

 

[JohnR7]

http://mobilelaz.com/judgementday/creationdays.png

There are people that claim the future controls the past more than the past controls the future.

 

[Dave-L]

What I say is that it took God 12.990 billion years to create Adam. Yet we find Adam 5,990 years ago in the Garden in Eden in the Tigris Euphrates river valley, in Ancient Mesopotamia. We have a time and a place. Just like when Jesus was born, we have a time and a place and the wise men figured it out and were there to greet him with gifts.

Adam was created at his appointed time in the matter environment.

 

[Dino246]

If you look at Neil DeGrasse Tyson's book: "Astrophysics for People in Hurry" there is a lot that this Cosmos Host expects us to swallow hook - line & sinker. People do just that because even as a fantasy it is so fantastic and amazing. He starts off saying the universe starts out one-trillionth the size of the period that ends this sentence. Clearly he wants to out perform Nachmanides who 1,000 years ago said that the universe started out the size of a mustard seed. Fact or fantasy it is a titillating thought. Even I had dream once where God was showing me that the universe expands and shrinks or contracts. Tyson goes on with this when he talks about how a millionth of a second had passed from the beginning. Is it true? Who cares it is fun and this all builds on what the Bible calls: The Beginning.

There is a little catch to all of this though. Science does some pretty amazing things. I can look at the GPS on my phone and it will tell the exact place where my phone is in my house. They can hit that phone with a missle and come within two or three feet of it. Even though the missile would destroy the whole house. They do this using trig, which I studied in college. But the math is actually so simple that a fifth grader can figure it out. Plus we do have photo from the Hubble of the early universe because of the amount of time it takes for light to get here. So there is evidence to back a lot of these claims up with. These people actually have PhD's. So they have studied this subject for a long time. Then a high school dropout comes along that puts no effort into anything and they want to try to argue science with the Phd. If they do not want to believe that is find. Their telephone is going to continue to work if the understand the science or not. The difference is how much money they get paid. Amazon starts computer programmer at $130,000 a year. Compared to $15 an hour for a warehouse worker or driver. That is fine, we need both and they are both functional, contributing members of society. But the person who knows science will be living in the nicer house, driving the newer car and taking better vacations. Because his contrabution is greater then the person that does not want to educate themselves.

I agree... there are many great discoveries that have come from experimental science. We need to distinguish between that and theoretical science, which includes commentary on the age of the universe/earth. Nobody was there to observe, and we cannot directly test anything from the origins of the universe. What many people don't realize is that this fact puts such theories outside of the realm of scientific knowledge.

People accept what "scientists" say because they're learned in one area, but that earned respect is misplaced when scientists speak outside of their area of experimentation. Tyson, Sagan, and the like are lauded for their supposed "knowledge" and "understanding" but in truth, what they have are mostly hypotheses that hold no more water than the fantasies of children. The experimental science that refutes those hypotheses is scarcely mentioned. We as the general public drink in the hypotheses as "science", because our desire to "know" is greater than our willingness to discern.

 

[RevelationMan]

I found the books by Dr Hugh Ross helpful...."Creation and Time" and "Creator and the Cosmos"

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I threw Carl Sagan's books away in 2016.
We've been programmed by our education system & TV from such a young age to accept certain things as facts.
Especially the "Billions & Billions" of years age of the universe story. I don't find it that easy to believe anymore.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I found the books by Dr Hugh Ross helpful...."Creation and Time" and "Creator and the Cosmos"

I put his book in the recycle bin too

 

[JamOn]

This is coming up in multiple posts. It would be a lot easier to give the topic it's own thread. According to Dr. Gerald Schroeder "The world may be only some 6000 years old. God could have put the fossils in the ground and juggled the light arriving from distant galaxies to make the world appear to be billions of years old. There is absolutely no way to disprove this claim. God being infinite could have made the world that way. There is another possible approach that also agrees with the ancient commentators’ description of God and nature. The world may be young and old simultaneously."

First of all we have to deal with the word: "choshech." in Genesis 1:2: "Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters." So there was no light before we had day, yet there was still the "surface of the waters". Also we are talking about the "earth" and we know that the universe has been around a lot longer than the earth.

If Choshech is to difficult for people to deal with. That clearly there was something here before day one, we still have to deal with day one. "Each day of creation is numbered. Yet there is discontinuity in the way the days are numbered. The verse says: "There is evening and morning, Day One." But the second day doesn't say "evening and morning, Day Two." Rather, it says "evening and morning, a second day." And the Torah continues with this pattern: "Evening and morning, a third day... a fourth day... a fifth day... the sixth day." Only on the first day does the text use a different form: not "first day," but "Day One" ("Yom Echad"). Many English translations make the mistake of writing "a first day." That's because editors want things to be nice and consistent. But they throw out the cosmic message in the text! Because there is a qualitative difference, as Nachmanides says, between "one" and "first." One is absolute; first is comparative.

Nachmanides explains that on Day One, time was created. That's a phenomenal insight. Time was created. You can't grab time. You don't even see it. You can see space, you can see matter, you can feel energy, you can see light energy. I understand a creation there. But the creation of time? Eight hundred years ago, Nachmanides attained this insight from the Torah's use of the phrase, "Day One." And that's exactly what Einstein taught us in the Laws of Relativity: that there was a creation, not just of space and matter, but of time itself."

https://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

Lets talk about Super Sonic Sixth Day. Did all this happened below in a 24 hour time frame or is day 6 (which most of genesis 2 is referring to) a period of time longer than 24 hours.

i think there is no question that day 6 was longer time frame, thus all days are of a longer time frame.

Gen 2
5Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant of the field sprouted; for the LORD God had not yet sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground.
6But springswelled up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

Gen 1
26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itselfand every creature that crawls upon it.

Gen 2
7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.
8And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, where He placed the man He had formed.
15Then the LORD God took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it.

Gen 2
10Now a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it branched into four headwaters:
11The name of the first river is Pishon; it winds through the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.
12And the gold of that land is pure, and bdellium and onyx are found there.
13The name of the second river is Gihon; it winds through the whole land of Cush.
14The name of the third river is Hiddekel; it runs along the east side of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

Gen 2
9Out of the ground the LORD God gave growth to every tree that is pleasing to the eye and good for food. And in the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden,
17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

Gen 1
24And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, land crawlers, and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so.

Gen 2
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and He brought them to the man to see what he would name each one. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

Gen 1
25God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that crawls upon the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Gen 2
18The LORD God also said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make for him a suitable helper.”
20The man gave names to all the livestock, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found.
21So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he slept, He took one of the man’s ribsand closed up the area with flesh.
22And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him.
23And the man said: “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for out of man she was taken.”
24For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
25And the man and his wife were both naked, and they were not ashamed.

Gen 1
27So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.”
29Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit contains seed. They will be yours for food.
30And to every beast of the earth and every bird of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth—everything that has the breath of life in it—I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

 

[bojack]

This is coming up in multiple posts. It would be a lot easier to give the topic it's own thread. According to Dr. Gerald Schroeder "The world may be only some 6000 years old. God could have put the fossils in the ground and juggled the light arriving from distant galaxies to make the world appear to be billions of years old. There is absolutely no way to disprove this claim. God being infinite could have made the world that way. There is another possible approach that also agrees with the ancient commentators’ description of God and nature. The world may be young and old simultaneously."

First of all we have to deal with the word: "choshech." in Genesis 1:2: "Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters." So there was no light before we had day, yet there was still the "surface of the waters". Also we are talking about the "earth" and we know that the universe has been around a lot longer than the earth.

If Choshech is to difficult for people to deal with. That clearly there was something here before day one, we still have to deal with day one. "Each day of creation is numbered. Yet there is discontinuity in the way the days are numbered. The verse says: "There is evening and morning, Day One." But the second day doesn't say "evening and morning, Day Two." Rather, it says "evening and morning, a second day." And the Torah continues with this pattern: "Evening and morning, a third day... a fourth day... a fifth day... the sixth day." Only on the first day does the text use a different form: not "first day," but "Day One" ("Yom Echad"). Many English translations make the mistake of writing "a first day." That's because editors want things to be nice and consistent. But they throw out the cosmic message in the text! Because there is a qualitative difference, as Nachmanides says, between "one" and "first." One is absolute; first is comparative.

Nachmanides explains that on Day One, time was created. That's a phenomenal insight. Time was created. You can't grab time. You don't even see it. You can see space, you can see matter, you can feel energy, you can see light energy. I understand a creation there. But the creation of time? Eight hundred years ago, Nachmanides attained this insight from the Torah's use of the phrase, "Day One." And that's exactly what Einstein taught us in the Laws of Relativity: that there was a creation, not just of space and matter, but of time itself."

https://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

You left out Gen 1:1 .. God had to create the heaven to put it and the earth before He could form it . Right ?
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

[JohnR7]

Adam was created at his appointed time in the matter environment.

The appointed time in the Bible has a lot to do with seasons and cycles.

 

[JohnR7]

Lets talk about Super Sonic Sixth Day. Did all this happened below in a 24 hour time frame or is day 6 (which most of genesis 2 is referring to) a period of time longer than 24 hours.

A day is 1,000 years. WE can see this with the Kingdom age when we will rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. The church age is two days or 2,000 years. The Church age began on the day of Pentecost when Peter was preaching in the upper room in the year 29. So 2029 will be the 2,000 year anniversary or birthday of the church. Some people believe there is 7 years of tribulation then 2036 would be the beginning of the Kingdom age when the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of God.

There was a major extinction 12,990 years ago with a 90% extinction rate. This is when the woolly Mammoths and the Saber tooth tigers died off. We can use the nano diamond comet as marker. I do not think the comet was a cause of the extinction, just a marker so we know when this event took place. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090101172136.htm