Can one be a Christian at birth ?
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L
Y'all silly, a person born to Christian parents and raised believing and has believed all their life, (of which I know a few) are indeed Christian, because believing is the determining factor. There is no incantation, or ritual, or ceremony there is only believing and unbelieving. The sinners prayer is a man made thing, confirmation is a man made thing. There is believe and be baptised.
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L
Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
1 John 5:5-8 NASB
1 John 5:5-8 NASB
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so now it seems you are saying that you believe that a person is not saved without baptism?
is that what you are saying?
I find it so much easier to understand what a person is saying when scripture is referred to as an explanation of what they are saying ESPECIALLY since there are so many disagreements
in any case, I do not believe there is one instance of infant baptism in scripture
is that what you are saying?
I find it so much easier to understand what a person is saying when scripture is referred to as an explanation of what they are saying ESPECIALLY since there are so many disagreements
in any case, I do not believe there is one instance of infant baptism in scripture
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in any case and speaking to no one person in particular, the op asks the question if one can be saved WITHOUT a personal decision for Christ and the answers are confusing to say the least
the final answer is no and here is why:
there is not salvation without belief in Jesus. you cannot inherit it, you cannot be born a Christian and you cannot use church membership or any other way to be saved.
8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being examined today about a kind service to a man who was lame, to determine how he was healed, 10then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
11This Jesus is
‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’a
12Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4
the Bible does not present a confusing response to the question of how one is saved and the same goes for baptism
ONLY believers who had placed their faith in Jesus were baptized (I am not referring to John the Baptist's work in the Jordan ... I am referring only to baptism AFTER the ascension of Jesus so please do not read into what I am saying here) the baptism was then and is now, a public testimony of identification with Jesus in burial (immersion) and then new life in Him...rising out of the water
an infant cannot make that kind of decision and has no concept of identifying with Christ. infants are usually 'baptized' with a sprinkling on the head rather than immersion so that does not follow with obedience to the Christian being baptized either
again, the Bible does not record one single infant being baptized
With this in view, infant baptism is not a Biblical practice. An infant cannot place his or her faith in Christ. An infant cannot make a conscious decision to obey Christ. An infant cannot understand what water baptism symbolizes. The Bible does not record any infants being baptized. Infant baptism is the origin of the sprinkling and pouring methods of baptism - as it is unwise and unsafe to immerse an infant under water. Even the method of infant baptism fails to agree with the Bible. How does pouring or sprinkling illustrate the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
baptism does not save people in any case. ONLY belief in Jesus sacrifice and acceptance of Him is what saves.
we had a number of months ago, a couple of people insisting you are not saved if you are not baptized . however, baptism follows salvation and is not salvation
the final answer is no and here is why:
there is not salvation without belief in Jesus. you cannot inherit it, you cannot be born a Christian and you cannot use church membership or any other way to be saved.
8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being examined today about a kind service to a man who was lame, to determine how he was healed, 10then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
11This Jesus is
‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’a
12Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4
the Bible does not present a confusing response to the question of how one is saved and the same goes for baptism
ONLY believers who had placed their faith in Jesus were baptized (I am not referring to John the Baptist's work in the Jordan ... I am referring only to baptism AFTER the ascension of Jesus so please do not read into what I am saying here) the baptism was then and is now, a public testimony of identification with Jesus in burial (immersion) and then new life in Him...rising out of the water
an infant cannot make that kind of decision and has no concept of identifying with Christ. infants are usually 'baptized' with a sprinkling on the head rather than immersion so that does not follow with obedience to the Christian being baptized either
again, the Bible does not record one single infant being baptized
With this in view, infant baptism is not a Biblical practice. An infant cannot place his or her faith in Christ. An infant cannot make a conscious decision to obey Christ. An infant cannot understand what water baptism symbolizes. The Bible does not record any infants being baptized. Infant baptism is the origin of the sprinkling and pouring methods of baptism - as it is unwise and unsafe to immerse an infant under water. Even the method of infant baptism fails to agree with the Bible. How does pouring or sprinkling illustrate the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
baptism does not save people in any case. ONLY belief in Jesus sacrifice and acceptance of Him is what saves.
we had a number of months ago, a couple of people insisting you are not saved if you are not baptized . however, baptism follows salvation and is not salvation
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L
Can a person be saved without baptism? I think so specifically in cases where baptism isn't possible. I believe that is why Jesus was baptized.
As for infant baptism,
Both arguments are made from specific silence. So while there is no case of a child being baptized in scripture there is no specific forbidding either. And I know you can make a case other wise as well, but there are three cases where "whole households" are baptized. Now according to tradition of the time for the Jews children are circumcised at 8 days. The apostles that baptized these household were indeed Jews. And u also point to Jesus blessing the children, and the disciples tried to stop them, but Jesus said suffer the little children to come to me for such as these are the kingdom of heaven. Now granted Jesus didn't baptize them but there is also no record of him baptizing his disciples. So I say why wouldn't we baptize children?
As for infant baptism,
Both arguments are made from specific silence. So while there is no case of a child being baptized in scripture there is no specific forbidding either. And I know you can make a case other wise as well, but there are three cases where "whole households" are baptized. Now according to tradition of the time for the Jews children are circumcised at 8 days. The apostles that baptized these household were indeed Jews. And u also point to Jesus blessing the children, and the disciples tried to stop them, but Jesus said suffer the little children to come to me for such as these are the kingdom of heaven. Now granted Jesus didn't baptize them but there is also no record of him baptizing his disciples. So I say why wouldn't we baptize children?
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little children is one thing...infants are another
I was actually 'baptized' myself as an infant in the Lutheran church...but that is just a sprinkling...have you ever heard of or seen an infant completely immersed? there would be hearty objections all the way round I suspect...further, it is my understanding that sprinkling came about because of infant 'baptism' to begin with...I wouldn't bet the family farm on that one in particular cause I have not researched it...but sounds plausible
I was 'saved' at the age of 5 so it seems I would fit into the category of 'little children'. but I was baptized as an early teen and I made that decision of my own accord and understood what it meant
frankly, I have difficulty with going ahead with something that the Bible 'does not mention' using the so logic of 'well if it doesn't forbid it, it must be default allow it' or at least there is an argument to be there, and then saying it is of God..that is far more church tradition I would suspect
the disciples were baptized in the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost and since they taught baptism, they were obviously baptized at some point. IMO, it is illogical to assume otherwise in there case as they taught baptism themselves, so it would follow they were not making a case for 'do as I say and not as I do'
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L
While I agree with the Lutherans on a lot of things, I'm not keen on sprinkling, or pouring a cup of water on someone. While I don't omit it as an option, say in limited water supply situations, but as per Romans 6 and Colossians 2 baptism is buried with Christ and I don't think that sprinkling is very buried.
I am still not 100 percent sure how I feel about infant baptism, but I do lean that way. I am definitely sure about baptizing children at very young ages. Especially if they show that they are a believer. I believe baptism is urgent do it now, don't wait. Especially when you see circumstances such as Philip and the eunuch in the Chariot. Philip made no hesitation to baptize that guy. From my understanding he baptized him in a water hole on the side of the road.
I am still not 100 percent sure how I feel about infant baptism, but I do lean that way. I am definitely sure about baptizing children at very young ages. Especially if they show that they are a believer. I believe baptism is urgent do it now, don't wait. Especially when you see circumstances such as Philip and the eunuch in the Chariot. Philip made no hesitation to baptize that guy. From my understanding he baptized him in a water hole on the side of the road.
Matthew 10:32-33
So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
Lon, if you knew Him you would know; so ask and you will receive. Draw near to Him, open your heart to Him and fully surrender because He says...
"
John 10
27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
Lon, if you knew Him you would know; so ask and you will receive. Draw near to Him, open your heart to Him and fully surrender because He says...
"
John 10
27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
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