Respectfully, could you elaborate some more on how you relate Matt 24:15 where it talks about the abomination of desolation, what is your reasoning that you think it refers very clearly to the antichrist? Does not antichrist mean anyone that does not believe in Christ, if so, then there are many antichrists, now and in that day.
Luke 21:32 and the coming of the kingdom
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Hi ForestGreenCook, you are right when you say there are many antichrists, but there is also one AntiChrist that is to come (Revelation Ch13). By that I mean there is an appointed time whereby God will allow a single man to rise up to whom many nations will give their power and authority. This man may already be alive on the earth today but as yet he has not been revealed as such to the world. He is a deceiver, and many religions of this world will look to him as their saviour. The Islamic world is looking to their Mahdi, the new agers and Hindus are looking to their Maitreya, the Jews are looking for their Messiah (as perceiving it to be His first and only coming), and even Christians are looking for the second coming of Christ. .....However the bible is very clear in its instruction, that we are not to be deceived by this man, for he is NOT the Christ. Jesus when he left the disciples (Acts Ch1) ascended into heaven in the sight of the disciples. And the angels standing there said to the disciples that He would return in like manner (from the clouds Acts1v11). Anybody else appearing on the scene NOT in this manner is NOT the Christ.
Now what is the Abomination that Causes Desolation? Partnering with the AntiChrist is someone the bible calls the False Prophet. This FP causes an image (statue) to be built in honour of the AntiChrist, and there will be power (majick) used which will cause this image to speak. This Abomonation that Causes Desolation is referred to in Matthew 24, Daniel 11v31, Daniel 12v11, He will cause all peoples from all nations to bow down and worship this image. Those who don’t are killed. People will be put onto a grid whereby a Mark is given in the palm of the hand or forehead (I wont speculate as to what this mark is, but common consensus is that it could be a system of microchipping). By taking this Mark there is no scope for repentance thereafter. Once you take the mark your fate is sealed.
Anyway, this is just a snippet of a much larger topic.
These events described above have not yet happened. This placing Luke 21 and Matthew 24 as not yet having been fulfilled.
Now what is the Abomination that Causes Desolation? Partnering with the AntiChrist is someone the bible calls the False Prophet. This FP causes an image (statue) to be built in honour of the AntiChrist, and there will be power (majick) used which will cause this image to speak. This Abomonation that Causes Desolation is referred to in Matthew 24, Daniel 11v31, Daniel 12v11, He will cause all peoples from all nations to bow down and worship this image. Those who don’t are killed. People will be put onto a grid whereby a Mark is given in the palm of the hand or forehead (I wont speculate as to what this mark is, but common consensus is that it could be a system of microchipping). By taking this Mark there is no scope for repentance thereafter. Once you take the mark your fate is sealed.
Anyway, this is just a snippet of a much larger topic.
These events described above have not yet happened. This placing Luke 21 and Matthew 24 as not yet having been fulfilled.
Correct!! What most Christians don't realize was the nature of Christ's return. He was to return "in His Presence," not in the flesh. The presence of God in the OT is given to us 4 times when He came in the 6th century to destroy Egypt, Edom, Israel, and Babylon. The descriptions of these 4 occasions of God's presence match the description Christ gives for His parousia. The opposite of Parousia is Absence, not leaving. When Christ ascended back to heaven, He was absent from us. This is why He sent the Helper, the Holy Spirit. But His presence returned in 66 AD to destroy Israel over 3.5 years.
In addition to the Luke passage you cited, consider these passages as well:
Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Mat 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Jesus promised repeatedly that He would return to that very same generation that would put Him to death. He would come with great judgment wrath against the wicked of Israel. Less than 40 years later, He kept His Word and came back. Using the Roman solders, Jesus completely and utterly destroyed Israel and Jerusalem in 66-70 AD. His return was actually visible and was recorded by several historians.
In addition to the Luke passage you cited, consider these passages as well:
Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Mat 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Jesus promised repeatedly that He would return to that very same generation that would put Him to death. He would come with great judgment wrath against the wicked of Israel. Less than 40 years later, He kept His Word and came back. Using the Roman solders, Jesus completely and utterly destroyed Israel and Jerusalem in 66-70 AD. His return was actually visible and was recorded by several historians.
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This was the prelude to the Olivet Discourse. And according to this discourse, the Second Coming of Christ could not possibly have happened in the first century. Here's the proof:
...and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven... And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken... Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken...
It is only after all these unimaginable catastrophies on earth, and fearful signs in the heavenly bodies that Christ will return: And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (v 27)
So all those who claim that the Second Coming of Christ was in the first century are simply fantasizing.
...and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven... And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken... Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken...
It is only after all these unimaginable catastrophies on earth, and fearful signs in the heavenly bodies that Christ will return: And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (v 27)
So all those who claim that the Second Coming of Christ was in the first century are simply fantasizing.
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Some prophecy that has come true has been recorded for us, the coming of Christ the messiah is a leading one. What bible scholars thought about the prophecy has also been recorded. Never once have the scholars been at all correct about the meaning of the prophecy. After it happened they could go back and know what it meant, it seemed clear then, but never before. I don't think the bible scholars are doing any better today with prophecy. We get a general idea, but I am sure we are not correct.
I think you make some really good and valid points. Thank you for them.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Jesus Christ was the first to be raised from the dead; not Enoch, not Elijah, not Moses. They remained asleep in the earth until after Christ died and rose again. This is why Peter, James and John were to tell no one of the vision on the mountain until after the Son of Man was raised from the dead. Matthew 17:9.
1 Corinthians 15:23-26 is a very quick summary of the process of Christ's coming(s), those being raised from the dead, and death being swallowed up.
Revelation goes into more description and detail on this process, which can be even more confusing.
1 Corinthians 15:23-26:
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
This corresponds to Matt 10:23, Matt 16:27. How many times the Risen Christ comes to earth to retrieve those who are asleep is not made known. But Jesus does indicate that the first time he will come will be while some are still alive in the generation that he was crucified.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
This corresponds to Revelation 19.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
This corresponds to Revelation 20.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
This corresponds to Revelation 21.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Jesus Christ was the first to be raised from the dead; not Enoch, not Elijah, not Moses. They remained asleep in the earth until after Christ died and rose again. This is why Peter, James and John were to tell no one of the vision on the mountain until after the Son of Man was raised from the dead. Matthew 17:9.
1 Corinthians 15:23-26 is a very quick summary of the process of Christ's coming(s), those being raised from the dead, and death being swallowed up.
Revelation goes into more description and detail on this process, which can be even more confusing.
1 Corinthians 15:23-26:
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
This corresponds to Matt 10:23, Matt 16:27. How many times the Risen Christ comes to earth to retrieve those who are asleep is not made known. But Jesus does indicate that the first time he will come will be while some are still alive in the generation that he was crucified.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
This corresponds to Revelation 19.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
This corresponds to Revelation 20.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
This corresponds to Revelation 21.
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Oh, but it did. First see Rev 19:
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations.
Here's where the above event was recorded several places in History:
1) "[O]n the twenty-first day of the month of Artemisius [Jyar], a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities." - Josephus, War of the Jews
2) The pagan historian Tacitus also mentions this event: “In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour." -Tacitus The Histories 5.13
3) “Now it happened after this that there was seen from above over the Holy of Holies for the whole night the outline of a man’s face, the like of whose beauty had never been seen in all the land, and his appearance was quite awesome." - Sepher Yosippon (A Mediaeval History of Ancient Israel) translated from the Hebrew by Steven B. Bowman. Excerpts from Chapter 87 “Burning of the Temple”
4) “Also after many days a certain figure appeared of tremendous size, which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed." Pseudo-Hegesippus, Chapter 44. (Translated from the Latin by Wade Blocker. This excerpt taken from the Latin edited by Vincente Ussani)
This is just some of the evidence of the return of Christ during the War of the Jews with Rome in the first century. If these accounts did not describe a heavenly army and Christ-like figure, perhaps you can enlighten us all as to what these events were? It would be a major coincidence since Christ said He was coming back to that generation, then all these things were seen, but it was someone or something else. Is that your view?
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations.
Here's where the above event was recorded several places in History:
1) "[O]n the twenty-first day of the month of Artemisius [Jyar], a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities." - Josephus, War of the Jews
2) The pagan historian Tacitus also mentions this event: “In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour." -Tacitus The Histories 5.13
3) “Now it happened after this that there was seen from above over the Holy of Holies for the whole night the outline of a man’s face, the like of whose beauty had never been seen in all the land, and his appearance was quite awesome." - Sepher Yosippon (A Mediaeval History of Ancient Israel) translated from the Hebrew by Steven B. Bowman. Excerpts from Chapter 87 “Burning of the Temple”
4) “Also after many days a certain figure appeared of tremendous size, which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed." Pseudo-Hegesippus, Chapter 44. (Translated from the Latin by Wade Blocker. This excerpt taken from the Latin edited by Vincente Ussani)
This is just some of the evidence of the return of Christ during the War of the Jews with Rome in the first century. If these accounts did not describe a heavenly army and Christ-like figure, perhaps you can enlighten us all as to what these events were? It would be a major coincidence since Christ said He was coming back to that generation, then all these things were seen, but it was someone or something else. Is that your view?
Hands down the most impressive miracle of the modern era is the "Miracle of the Sun".
This miracle was used to justify the 1950 dogmatic doctrine of the Assumption of Mary; Munificentissimus Deus.
The many accounts of the Miracle of the Sun are both phenomenal and undeniable.
Does this mean that we should trust this miracle as well as its interpretation?
This miracle was used to justify the 1950 dogmatic doctrine of the Assumption of Mary; Munificentissimus Deus.
The many accounts of the Miracle of the Sun are both phenomenal and undeniable.
Does this mean that we should trust this miracle as well as its interpretation?
We should trust the plain spoken Word of Jesus. He promised He would return and that some standing before Him would still be alive. He promised to return to that very same generation of His. He promised that some of His followers would not go through all the cities of Israel before He returned. He promised to punish that wicked and perverse generation and that generation was punished. I believe Him, why don't you????
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I tend to agree with what you are saying here. Then, you share with us these reported visions in the sky by first century historians. Maybe these visions in the sky are true as you say, but maybe they are not. It is not clear to me that these visions can be trusted.
You then take these things which are based on Matt 10:23 and Matt 16:27, and along with these 1st century AD visions in the sky and correspond them to Revelation 19. This is where I am losing you.
Revelation 19:11-15 mentions a man on a white horse
"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "
Revelation 6:1-2 also mentions a man on a white horse
"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."
So please answer me these questions:
1) Is Jesus the man on the white horse in Rev 6:1-2?
2) Is Jesus the man on the white horse in Rev 19:11-15?
3) Is Rev 6:1-2 the same event as in Rev 19:11-15, or is Rev 6:1-2 a different event as Rev 19:11-15?
You then take these things which are based on Matt 10:23 and Matt 16:27, and along with these 1st century AD visions in the sky and correspond them to Revelation 19. This is where I am losing you.
Revelation 19:11-15 mentions a man on a white horse
"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "
Revelation 6:1-2 also mentions a man on a white horse
"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."
So please answer me these questions:
1) Is Jesus the man on the white horse in Rev 6:1-2?
2) Is Jesus the man on the white horse in Rev 19:11-15?
3) Is Rev 6:1-2 the same event as in Rev 19:11-15, or is Rev 6:1-2 a different event as Rev 19:11-15?