The doctrine that Jesus taught does not have to be "reformed". God saw, by his foreknowledge, that no one would seek him, no, not one, Psalms 53:2-3. That is why God choose an elect people, out of those that did not seek him, of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, Rev 5:9, and regenerated them together with Christ, Eph 2, who died for their sins. John 6:39.
Was the person who falls away drawn to Jesus by the Father?
- Thread starter Judges1318
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The doctrine that Jesus taught does not have to be "reformed". God saw, by his foreknowledge, that no one would seek him, no, not one, Psalms 53:2-3. That is why God choose an elect people, out of those that did not seek him, of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, Rev 5:9, and regenerated them together with Christ, Eph 2, who died for their sins. John 6:39.
If the "all men" in this verse means "all mankind" it would contradict 1 Cor 2:14, because the things of the Spirit cannot be manifested to the natural man, who thinks they are foolishness, and cannot discern them, until he has been regenerated, Eph 2.
The KJV says that verse in a different way, as, "hath appeared to all men". The grace of God does not appear to the natural man, until he has been regenerated. So, the "all men" would have to be "all regenerated men".
All one needs to believe that what he can't see is true is the testimony of the Spirit in his heart telling him it's true, because "the Spirit is the truth" (1 John 5:6).
That doesn't mean they'll automatically submit to what the Spirit is showing them is true. In fact, most will reject what they know to be true about the gospel, calling God a liar (1 John 5:10). It simply means the person now knows the gospel really is true. No regeneration has to occur for the person to know that what the Holy Spirit is speaking about Jesus is true.
We must pray for all souls to be saved. Jesus, Yeshua, has certainly offered salvation to alll people. It is the most prized of Gifts but keep in mind, many do not prize it nor receive it. They are simply not willing to give up themselves and surrender to God's will. Yet in this age we are not tojudge more than "for ourselves" what is right concrning them, ourselves and all.
It doesn't get much clearer than this...
John 6:37-40 (KJV) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:37-40 (KJV) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
If we want to be adamant about the believer not being able to lose his salvation the 2nd type of soil believer causes us to consider these issues:
1) He wasn't really sent by the Father. People can come to Jesus on their own.
2) Going back to unbelief doesn't stop you from being raised up to eternal life at the last day.
3) He wasn't really a believer to begin. He was a fake believer.
Thomas must not have believed by sight. Why? Because faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.Jesus did not shun Thomas. In fact, He invited closer inspection.
Isaiah 1:18
“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.” John 2:23–25 (KJV 1900)
Yes, but Jesus said as written in John 7:17 "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." So therefore it is man that must be reformed in order to know whether the doctrine was of God or was his doctrine.
Who says they were drawn to Christ at all? They simply heard the Gospel got excited about it, but the seed of the Word never grew because they did not have Jesus (the Root).
We see the problem as to why they resisted the Holy Spirit. -- Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears..
Amen! The heart of the shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who superficially believe and rejoice at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation. Unlike saving belief, shallow temporary belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. "No depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, withered away" does not represent saving belief. (Matthew 13:5-6; Luke 8:6; 13)
Through God's gift of faith.
Faith is the supernatural ability to know something unseen really is true.
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. - Hebrews 11:1
It is on that supernatural ability that you then choose to trust in Jesus.......if you want to.
If you don't want to, you cast from your heart what God has shown you to be true and you remain in your unbelief.
If you do want to trust in Jesus you retain the faith God gave you, and through it you trust in Jesus and are saved.
The "2nd soil" "believer" hasn't come to Christ yet.
He heard the gospel and was happy because of it.
But when it came time to proving his faith and seeing it work he fell away.
The Galatians had hearts of #2 soil. They believed for a while but then fell away from belief in Christ and went back to reliance on the law. Yet the letter plainly tells us they really did believe. So we know soil #2 is not categorically and without exception fake believers who weren't really saved.
Just got done responding to this argument above.
https://christianchat.com/threads/w...wn-to-jesus-by-the-father.190278/post-4166744
Yes he drew all the father gave him called "as many as".Not one more or one less. He does not draw and not finish the work
We put our confidence in the Son of man Jesus he is the good ground in which the incorruptible born again seed is planted.
The word good through the Bible represents the unseen hand of our father I heaven
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Not maybe will perform as he works in us to both will and do His good pleasure but will . .. but will work the good work No murmuring.
But back to the point of this thread.
If the 2nd type of soil is just a fake believer who never really believed then it can't be true that no one will come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. I mean in once saved always saved doctrine. Because it says that the ones that the Father gives to Jesus will always believe and can not stop believing. IOW, this person came to Jesus on their own.