Who is the ones that is taken ? And who is the ones that are left ?
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Pros?? 
What an absurd notion. We are all able to study and we are all fallible people.
Some seem to rely on Bible commentary as though it were scripture itself and it can lead them astray as much as it can inform.
What an absurd notion. We are all able to study and we are all fallible people.Some seem to rely on Bible commentary as though it were scripture itself and it can lead them astray as much as it can inform.
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The word "rapture" is translated: "caught up".
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1Thes4:7) You can scratch your head and say I have no idea what 1Thes4:7 is talking about. That does not make it a "lie" because you do not understand what the Bible is saying. You clearly need to be more careful with your words and what you are saying.
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1Thes4:7) You can scratch your head and say I have no idea what 1Thes4:7 is talking about. That does not make it a "lie" because you do not understand what the Bible is saying. You clearly need to be more careful with your words and what you are saying.
When you study the doctrine of man and not what God teaches. My dad felt we were better off to know nothing, then to learn what man has to say about it. The Holy Spirit is to be our teacher and our guide and we do not need man to teach us. "No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." (Jeremiah 31:34)
Hebrews 8:11
No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:11
No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest.
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Déjà vu... I thought someone not too long ago started a thread asking this question, but perhaps I'm not recalling correctly.
My response (was then, and is now the same), that the context is speaking of the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth (i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth... not our Rapture).
[in the example] The one "taken" was taken into judgment, and the one "left" was left to exist upon the earth...
(and in the example of Noah, was "left" to populate the earth ["fill the earth" Gen9:1]); this will be the case for those [saints] still living at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, that they will ENTER the kingdom in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing / bearing children (compare Gen9:1 with the wording of Dan2:35 ["fill/filled the [whole] earth"] and that of these passages in the gospels re: "as in the days of Noah, SO SHALL ALSO the coming of the Son of man be").
In the example of Noah, and the wording as found in Matt24:39, "and [they] knew not UNTIL" I believe speaks not of Noah & crew, but of those who were destroyed in the flood judgment; Noah "knew" and "prepared" the ark; and it's not as though the ones destroyed in the flood judgment were not aware of the building of the ark and the fact that Noah was a "preacher of righteousness" (so likely used words also! ) and the animals being led to board ship, but rather (as I see it) it is that they disregarded God's Word via Noah
(which is what I believe the point is, of this text... not the idea that no "indicators" were visible around them [an idea I think those who take this passage to be speaking of the Rapture try to use to support their viewpoint on that, of which I disagree, like I stated, I believe this is a "Second Coming to the earth" passage, not a Rapture passage; and I do tend to believe Lk17:27,29 and context is pretty much parallel to this ("and destroyed them all"<--this isn't taking place at the point in time following our Rapture event, for example )])
My response (was then, and is now the same), that the context is speaking of the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth (i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth... not our Rapture).
[in the example] The one "taken" was taken into judgment, and the one "left" was left to exist upon the earth...
(and in the example of Noah, was "left" to populate the earth ["fill the earth" Gen9:1]); this will be the case for those [saints] still living at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, that they will ENTER the kingdom in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing / bearing children (compare Gen9:1 with the wording of Dan2:35 ["fill/filled the [whole] earth"] and that of these passages in the gospels re: "as in the days of Noah, SO SHALL ALSO the coming of the Son of man be").
In the example of Noah, and the wording as found in Matt24:39, "and [they] knew not UNTIL" I believe speaks not of Noah & crew, but of those who were destroyed in the flood judgment; Noah "knew" and "prepared" the ark; and it's not as though the ones destroyed in the flood judgment were not aware of the building of the ark and the fact that Noah was a "preacher of righteousness" (so likely used words also!
) and the animals being led to board ship, but rather (as I see it) it is that they disregarded God's Word via Noah(which is what I believe the point is, of this text... not the idea that no "indicators" were visible around them [an idea I think those who take this passage to be speaking of the Rapture try to use to support their viewpoint on that, of which I disagree, like I stated, I believe this is a "Second Coming to the earth" passage, not a Rapture passage; and I do tend to believe Lk17:27,29 and context is pretty much parallel to this ("and destroyed them all"<--this isn't taking place at the point in time following our Rapture event, for example
)])
Déjà vu... I thought someone not too long ago started a thread asking this question, but perhaps I'm not recalling correctly.
My response (was then, and is now the same), that the context is speaking of the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth (i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth... not our Rapture).
[in the example] The one "taken" was taken into judgment, and the one "left" was left to exist upon the earth...
(and in the example of Noah, was "left" to populate the earth ["fill the earth" Gen9:1]); this will be the case for those [saints] still living at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, that they will ENTER the kingdom in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing / bearing children (compare Gen9:1 with the wording of Dan2:35 ["fill/filled the [whole] earth"] and that of these passages in the gospels re: "as in the days of Noah, SO SHALL ALSO the coming of the Son of man be").
In the example of Noah, and the wording as found in Matt24:39, "and [they] knew not UNTIL" I believe speaks not of Noah & crew, but of those who were destroyed in the flood judgment; Noah "knew" and "prepared" the ark; and it's not as though the ones destroyed in the flood judgment were not aware of the building of the ark and the fact that Noah was a "preacher of righteousness" (so likely used words also! ) and the animals being led to board ship, but rather (as I see it) it is that they disregarded God's Word via Noah
(which is what I believe the point is, of this text... not the idea that no "indicators" were visible around them [an idea I think those who take this passage to be speaking of the Rapture try to use to support their viewpoint on that, of which I disagree, like I stated, I believe this is a "Second Coming to the earth" passage, not a Rapture passage; and I do tend to believe Lk17:27,29 and context is pretty much parallel to this ("and destroyed them all"<--this isn't taking place at the point in time following our Rapture event, for example )])
My response (was then, and is now the same), that the context is speaking of the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth (i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth... not our Rapture).
[in the example] The one "taken" was taken into judgment, and the one "left" was left to exist upon the earth...
(and in the example of Noah, was "left" to populate the earth ["fill the earth" Gen9:1]); this will be the case for those [saints] still living at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, that they will ENTER the kingdom in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing / bearing children (compare Gen9:1 with the wording of Dan2:35 ["fill/filled the [whole] earth"] and that of these passages in the gospels re: "as in the days of Noah, SO SHALL ALSO the coming of the Son of man be").
In the example of Noah, and the wording as found in Matt24:39, "and [they] knew not UNTIL" I believe speaks not of Noah & crew, but of those who were destroyed in the flood judgment; Noah "knew" and "prepared" the ark; and it's not as though the ones destroyed in the flood judgment were not aware of the building of the ark and the fact that Noah was a "preacher of righteousness" (so likely used words also!
) and the animals being led to board ship, but rather (as I see it) it is that they disregarded God's Word via Noah(which is what I believe the point is, of this text... not the idea that no "indicators" were visible around them [an idea I think those who take this passage to be speaking of the Rapture try to use to support their viewpoint on that, of which I disagree, like I stated, I believe this is a "Second Coming to the earth" passage, not a Rapture passage; and I do tend to believe Lk17:27,29 and context is pretty much parallel to this ("and destroyed them all"<--this isn't taking place at the point in time following our Rapture event, for example
)])
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Hello Adstar!
I would greatly disagree with your conclusion. First of all in the context, the "one taken" group are being compared to those who were taken in the flood, which are the wicked. Therefore, the comparison is wicked to wicked.
The "one taken and the other left" scripture has nothing to do with the gathering of the church, but is referring to those who are still alive and will be gathered by the angels when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age as described in Matt.24:30-31.
"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
It is important to not pigeonhole words such as the word trumpet in the scripture above and erroneously apply it to mean the last trumpet. This is a mistake that many make.
Also, those that the angels will be gathering in the scripture above, is not referring to the resurrection of the dead and the living being caught up, but is referring to the righteous who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period. In short, the angels will be gathering living people, those still in their mortal bodies.
We also know that the wicked/weeds are gathered first when the Lord returns to the earth as described in the parable in Matt.13:
==========================================================
The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
“ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.
=========================================================
When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the angels first collect the weeds, which symbolically refers to the wicked, who will be brought to the area of Armageddon where they will be killed by that double-edged sword which will proceed from the mouth of the Lord and which represents the word of God. (Rev.19:17-18, 21)
In further support of this, in Luke's version, after the Lord says, "one will be taken and the other left" the disciples ask "Where, Lord?" i.e. where are they going to be taken? The Lord's response is, "Wherever there is a carcass, there will the vultures/birds be gathered. This is referring to the event mentioned in Rev.17-18 when the angel calls all of the birds of the air to come and gather themselves to the supper of the great God.
"Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice to all the birds flying overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and commanders and mighty men, of horses and riders, of all men slave and free, small and great.”
After the angels gather the wicked (one taken), they will be killed by the word of the Lord, which is the double-edged sword and the birds that will have been gathered by the angel will gorge themselves on their flesh.
The others who are left will be the righteous whom the angels will gather after the gathering of the wicked. These are those who will enter into the millennial kingdom and along with the remnant of Israel, will repopulate the earth.
I would greatly disagree with your conclusion. First of all in the context, the "one taken" group are being compared to those who were taken in the flood, which are the wicked. Therefore, the comparison is wicked to wicked.
The "one taken and the other left" scripture has nothing to do with the gathering of the church, but is referring to those who are still alive and will be gathered by the angels when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age as described in Matt.24:30-31.
"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
It is important to not pigeonhole words such as the word trumpet in the scripture above and erroneously apply it to mean the last trumpet. This is a mistake that many make.
Also, those that the angels will be gathering in the scripture above, is not referring to the resurrection of the dead and the living being caught up, but is referring to the righteous who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period. In short, the angels will be gathering living people, those still in their mortal bodies.
We also know that the wicked/weeds are gathered first when the Lord returns to the earth as described in the parable in Matt.13:
==========================================================
The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
“ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.
=========================================================
When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the angels first collect the weeds, which symbolically refers to the wicked, who will be brought to the area of Armageddon where they will be killed by that double-edged sword which will proceed from the mouth of the Lord and which represents the word of God. (Rev.19:17-18, 21)
In further support of this, in Luke's version, after the Lord says, "one will be taken and the other left" the disciples ask "Where, Lord?" i.e. where are they going to be taken? The Lord's response is, "Wherever there is a carcass, there will the vultures/birds be gathered. This is referring to the event mentioned in Rev.17-18 when the angel calls all of the birds of the air to come and gather themselves to the supper of the great God.
"Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice to all the birds flying overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and commanders and mighty men, of horses and riders, of all men slave and free, small and great.”
After the angels gather the wicked (one taken), they will be killed by the word of the Lord, which is the double-edged sword and the birds that will have been gathered by the angel will gorge themselves on their flesh.
The others who are left will be the righteous whom the angels will gather after the gathering of the wicked. These are those who will enter into the millennial kingdom and along with the remnant of Israel, will repopulate the earth.
[addressing Post #31] ^ Ah yes, the thread where I posted a video link in Post #2, preceding your post ^ in that thread
https://christianchat.com/threads/rapture-top-dogs-admit-no-proof-exists.190008/post-4150815
[quoting a portion of my Post #2 of that "Top Dogs" thread ]
Here's a post I made awhile back (making a point in the vid about something Geo E Ladd had said):
[quoting that post]
Dr David Hocking showed Marv Rosenthal (I believe it was) about the manuscript evidence (re: Rev5:9-10; with v.9 saying "US" ['having redeemed US']) had to acknowledge "agreement" [that David Hocking was right and Scripture does say that, per the manuscript evidence Hocking pointed out], but then Rosenthal proceeded to publish his already-written "pre-wrath book" anyway, despite being informed of these facts:
[see this vid:
(approx 9-min vid total)
--note also in this video that he mentions something Geo E. Ladd [...] had said about this passage/esp verse 9]
[end quoting that post]
[end quoting that portion of my Post #2 of that thread... though there were many more points made throughout that thread, many of which address the very points Witherington is covering in his vids (now showing in Post #31 of this thread)... For example, Matt24:29-31 is NOT speaking of "our Rapture" etc ]
https://christianchat.com/threads/rapture-top-dogs-admit-no-proof-exists.190008/post-4150815
[quoting a portion of my Post #2 of that "Top Dogs" thread
]Here's a post I made awhile back (making a point in the vid about something Geo E Ladd had said):
[quoting that post]
Dr David Hocking showed Marv Rosenthal (I believe it was) about the manuscript evidence (re: Rev5:9-10; with v.9 saying "US" ['having redeemed US']) had to acknowledge "agreement" [that David Hocking was right and Scripture does say that, per the manuscript evidence Hocking pointed out], but then Rosenthal proceeded to publish his already-written "pre-wrath book" anyway, despite being informed of these facts:
[see this vid:
(approx 9-min vid total)
--note also in this video that he mentions something Geo E. Ladd [...] had said about this passage/esp verse 9]
[end quoting that post]
[end quoting that portion of my Post #2 of that thread... though there were many more points made throughout that thread, many of which address the very points Witherington is covering in his vids (now showing in Post #31 of this thread)... For example, Matt24:29-31 is NOT speaking of "our Rapture" etc
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Good ay bud62!
The gathering of the living church (rapture) is not a lie. We have two very distinct promises regarding the Lord's promise to come and gather us.
==========================================
In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
=========================================
So, the Lord's promise is that, He went to the Father's house, which could only be referring to heaven, to prepare a place for every believer. Then He says that He is going to come back to take us to those places that he has prepared for us. I Thessalonians 4:13-18 is the detailed account of when He comes back to gather us. Therefore, His promise to gather those who believe in Him is not a lie. And because it is a prophet promise it must take place.
It is just a matter of considering all scripture regarding this issue in order to come to a right conclusion. Regarding this, in Rev.19:6-8 you have the bride/church in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen which is taking place during the tribulation period. And then in Rev.19:14, you have the bride wearing her fine linen following the Lord out of heaven riding white horses. If your following the Lord out of heaven, then you would already have to be in heaven to do so.
The next event to take place will be the gathering of the church, both dead and living, where the Lord will appear and call us up. After that the Day of the Lord ensues, the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. For believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.
The gathering of the living church (rapture) is not a lie. We have two very distinct promises regarding the Lord's promise to come and gather us.
==========================================
In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
=========================================
So, the Lord's promise is that, He went to the Father's house, which could only be referring to heaven, to prepare a place for every believer. Then He says that He is going to come back to take us to those places that he has prepared for us. I Thessalonians 4:13-18 is the detailed account of when He comes back to gather us. Therefore, His promise to gather those who believe in Him is not a lie. And because it is a prophet promise it must take place.
It is just a matter of considering all scripture regarding this issue in order to come to a right conclusion. Regarding this, in Rev.19:6-8 you have the bride/church in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen which is taking place during the tribulation period. And then in Rev.19:14, you have the bride wearing her fine linen following the Lord out of heaven riding white horses. If your following the Lord out of heaven, then you would already have to be in heaven to do so.
The next event to take place will be the gathering of the church, both dead and living, where the Lord will appear and call us up. After that the Day of the Lord ensues, the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. For believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.
[addressing Post #31] ^ Ah yes, the thread where I posted a video link in Post #2, preceding your post ^ in that thread
https://christianchat.com/threads/rapture-top-dogs-admit-no-proof-exists.190008/post-4150815
[quoting a portion of my Post #2 of that "Top Dogs" thread ]
Here's a post I made awhile back (making a point in the vid about something Geo E Ladd had said):
[quoting that post]
Dr David Hocking showed Marv Rosenthal (I believe it was) about the manuscript evidence (re: Rev5:9-10; with v.9 saying "US" ['having redeemed US']) had to acknowledge "agreement" [that David Hocking was right and Scripture does say that, per the manuscript evidence Hocking pointed out], but then Rosenthal proceeded to publish his already-written "pre-wrath book" anyway, despite being informed of these facts:
[see this vid:
(approx 9-min vid total)
--note also in this video that he mentions something Geo E. Ladd [...] had said about this passage/esp verse 9]
[end quoting that post]
[end quoting that portion of my Post #2 of that thread... though there were many more points made throughout that thread, many of which address the very points Witherington is covering in his vids (now showing in Post #31 of this thread)... For example, Matt24:29-31 is NOT speaking of "our Rapture" etc ]
https://christianchat.com/threads/rapture-top-dogs-admit-no-proof-exists.190008/post-4150815
[quoting a portion of my Post #2 of that "Top Dogs" thread
]Here's a post I made awhile back (making a point in the vid about something Geo E Ladd had said):
[quoting that post]
Dr David Hocking showed Marv Rosenthal (I believe it was) about the manuscript evidence (re: Rev5:9-10; with v.9 saying "US" ['having redeemed US']) had to acknowledge "agreement" [that David Hocking was right and Scripture does say that, per the manuscript evidence Hocking pointed out], but then Rosenthal proceeded to publish his already-written "pre-wrath book" anyway, despite being informed of these facts:
[see this vid:
(approx 9-min vid total)
--note also in this video that he mentions something Geo E. Ladd [...] had said about this passage/esp verse 9]
[end quoting that post]
[end quoting that portion of my Post #2 of that thread... though there were many more points made throughout that thread, many of which address the very points Witherington is covering in his vids (now showing in Post #31 of this thread)... For example, Matt24:29-31 is NOT speaking of "our Rapture" etc
]
In a like passage, the wedding has already taken place. Christ and His bride, the Church, has been married and are returning to reign on the earth. I could not be the catching up of the Church.
Luke 12
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
The Lord is returning from a wedding which makes the thing 2nd Advent! In the passage the Son of man is likened to a thief and his coming is a night time coming to a house where the goodman is sleeping instead of watching. Christ was crucified between two thieves. One was taken, the other left.
Luke 12
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
The Lord is returning from a wedding which makes the thing 2nd Advent! In the passage the Son of man is likened to a thief and his coming is a night time coming to a house where the goodman is sleeping instead of watching. Christ was crucified between two thieves. One was taken, the other left.
Hi John146!
Um, regarding the two who were crucified with Christ: one was not taken and the other left. If you look back at the context, both men died, with their bodies being buried and decaying. However, their spirits where conscious and aware in Hades, with Lazarus and the rich man being in two separate areas which were separated by a large chasm. When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the angels are sent out and they will be gathering those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period.
The reference to "one taken" is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where He sends out His angels and they first gather the weeds who will be killed (Mt.13:30, Rev.19:17-18, 21), then after that the wheat/righteous area gathered. These are those who will enter into the millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth.
Um, regarding the two who were crucified with Christ: one was not taken and the other left. If you look back at the context, both men died, with their bodies being buried and decaying. However, their spirits where conscious and aware in Hades, with Lazarus and the rich man being in two separate areas which were separated by a large chasm. When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the angels are sent out and they will be gathering those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period.
The reference to "one taken" is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where He sends out His angels and they first gather the weeds who will be killed (Mt.13:30, Rev.19:17-18, 21), then after that the wheat/righteous area gathered. These are those who will enter into the millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth.