Not By Works

[OneOfHis]

Ok, then to whom do we justify ourselves through our good works? God? The lost? Other believers?

Again this is a strawman.

You're speaking of the opposite.



Peter denied Jesus -> lack of a righteous work and it was seen before man as lack of faith.


In james there is teaching AGAINST a loveless walk (lack of righteous works) to SHOW the love of God in us as witnesses. (His body)

You're either being dishonest or making a strawman out of confusion.


No you can never be seen before a brother or sister as "justified as a true believer" by works. Lack of love (which manifests as works) before man will cause you to be less than blameless. They can doubt your faith. If you are blameless, before these men your faith is justified. They have nothing to point at to say "oh look, hypocrit... liar... Jesus wouldn't want that how can you say you love Him"...

 

[KJV1611]

To be honest, sticking with the clear reading of the word...I'm not convinced. Has God chosen not to know certain things, future decisions, until man decides?

What about the Nineveh? Did God know that they would repent and in turn He would not destroy them in forty days? He declared He would destroy them in forty days? Did God lie, or simply change His mind based upon their response to the message?

I think God knows all or else he's not God.

 

[John146]

Again this is a strawman.

When I disagree cry, "Strawman, Strawman!"

 

[KJV1611]

Lol, Abraham believed in the d,b,r of Christ? You know that was a mystery hid from everyone until it was fulfilled. Not even His disciples knew about it. We can look back and see the pictures, but only with the knowledge of the NT.

Nobody was "looking forward" to the cross. That's a man made doctrine. They were looking forward to a Messiah, a deliverer, but the cross was hidden.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

What did Abraham see? What was Jesus' day?

 

[John146]

I think God knows all or else he's not God.

He's not your version of God. Does He remember your sins? Does God choose to not remember your sins no more? Can God do that?

Did God know Nineveh would repent? If He did, God lied. He clearly declared in forty days Nineveh would be overthrown. God did not lie, He simply changed His mind. it's all throughout Scripture. This is how God has chosen to deal with man.

 

[OneOfHis]

Then explain James. The question James is answering: Can faith save him?

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Scripture is clear that in the sight of God, it is by FAITH.


galatians 3

6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.


Romans 4

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,



Not before God.


James 2:18

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”


James 3
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3

Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4

Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
5

Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6

And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7

For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8

But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9

Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10

Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11

Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

____

This is about how we ought to walk and show Gods love in us.


James 2:3

“And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:”




Not be partial or "fake" loving in word only.

This is not about being justified before God but functioning as a living member of His body FOR others.

 

[John146]

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

What did Abraham see? What was Jesus' day?

Yes, the day when God would send the deliverer of Israel. See Luke 1.

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

 

[John146]

Scripture is clear that in the sight of God, it is by FAITH.


galatians 3

6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.


Romans 4

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,



Not before God.


James 2:18

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”


James 3
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3

Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4

Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
5

Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6

And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7

For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8

But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9

Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10

Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11

Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

____

This is about how we ought to walk and show Gods love in us.


James 2:3

“And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:”




Not be partial or "fake" loving in word only.

This is not about being justified before God but functioning as a living member of His body FOR others.

What do you do with the word justified? Who are we justified before? That's my question? God? Man?

 

[KJV1611]

He's not your version of God. Does He remember your sins? Does God choose to not remember your sins no more? Can God do that?

Did God know Nineveh would repent? If He did, God lied. He clearly declared in forty days Nineveh would be overthrown. God did not lie, He simply changed His mind. it's all throughout Scripture. This is how God has chosen to deal with man.

He's not your version of God. Does He remember your sins? Does God choose to not remember your sins no more? Can God do that?

Did God know Nineveh would repent? If He did, God lied. He clearly declared in forty days Nineveh would be overthrown. God did not lie, He simply changed His mind. it's all throughout Scripture. This is how God has chosen to deal with man.

I stand behind what I've been saying all along, there is nothing that God doesn't know, there's nothing that gets past him.

 

[OneOfHis]

What do you do with the word justified? Who are we justified before? That's my question? God? Man?

Before God, even as Abraham we are imputed righteousness and justified by faith.

"
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

____


Before man, even as PETER who denied Christ to appear to NOT be a follower of Christ (successfully) our faith goes together with showing Gods love in us (opposed to being VOID of works of righteousness) to demonstrate we are part of HIS body.

A man may say this or that, but if you are walking as a child of God ought to... it is a lot harder for a man to say anything.

 

[John146]

I stand behind what I've been saying all along, there is nothing that God doesn't know, there's nothing that gets past him.

I agree. God is perfect in knowledge. That's bible. But is future decisions by men even knowledge yet until they are made, then God chooses to know it? That's what I've been looking at. Of course nothing gets by Him.

 

[John146]

Before God, even as Abraham we are imputed righteousness and justified by faith.

"
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

____


Before man, even as PETER who denied Christ to appear to NOT be a follower of Christ (successfully) our faith goes together with showing Gods love in us (opposed to being VOID of works of righteousness) to demonstrate we are part of HIS body.

A man may say this or that, but if you are walking as a child of God ought to... it is a lot harder for a man to say anything.

That's Abraham being justified by God. Is this what you claim James is about? Justification before God?

The moment one believes the gospel, he is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. No works necessary to be saved or to justify his salvation to God.

 

[KJV1611]

Yes, the day when God would send the deliverer of Israel. See Luke 1.

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

When did Abraham see that?

 

[John146]

Before God, even as Abraham we are imputed righteousness and justified by faith.

"
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

____


Before man, even as PETER who denied Christ to appear to NOT be a follower of Christ (successfully) our faith goes together with showing Gods love in us (opposed to being VOID of works of righteousness) to demonstrate we are part of HIS body.

A man may say this or that, but if you are walking as a child of God ought to... it is a lot harder for a man to say anything.

A man can claim he's a believer, even do good works, but still be lost.

 

[OneOfHis]

That's Abraham being justified by God. Is this what you claim James is about? Justification before God?

The moment one believes the gospel, he is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. No works necessary to be saved or to justify his salvation to God.

No that is the opposite of what I claim james is about......

Our justification is by God Himself. It is not our righteousness so our works are disconnected completely.



I agree that we are saved by grace through faith.

Period.


No works.

Blessed is the man who imputes righteousness without works.


Having not my own righteousness but the righteousness of Christ.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done.

 

[John146]

When did Abraham see that?

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

I'm not exactly sure, probably part of Genesis 15.

 

[OneOfHis]

A man can claim he's a believer, even do good works, but still be lost.

I have said that same thing in this thread maybe 7 times on this account alone.


Some of which were to you directly.
This is why I felt you were being dishonest.... now I see you still just don't understand what I said..... a bunch of times in different ways...


These are goats.... tares.... God never knew them.

 

[John146]

I have said that same thing in this thread maybe 7 times in this account alone.


Some of which were to you directly.

I apologize. I'm just trying to figure out in James, who is justified and before whom is he justified? God or man? Abraham was justified before God. That is the example used. Nobody was with him on that mount when he offered up Isaac.

 

[KJV1611]

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

I'm not exactly sure, probably part of Genesis 15.

Gen 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

This is what Jesus was talking about when he said Abraham saw his day. On the THIRD DAY (the resurrection of Christ), Abraham lifted up his and saw the resurrection of Jesus. I can't prove it but I'm pretty sure that's right.

 

[OneOfHis]

I apologize. I'm just trying to figure out in James, who is justified and before whom is he justified? God or man? Abraham was justified before God. That is the example used. Nobody was with him on that mount when he offered up Isaac.

No but even now we can see that his faith (belief trust and confidence) lead him to behave in a way which would be a radical thing for someone who didn't truly trust God....



Who could say abraham didn't show himself to be a believer? Even now?


Of course God justified him appart from his works... God doesnt need proof, that would make Him limited....