Not By Works

[John146]

Don't forget your own argument you were making:The law of the oxen wasn't written to the church, yet it has application to the church.

To Israel, for the Church. Big difference. We don’t literally have oxen, most of us.

The difference is Paul specifically brings this up. What about all the rest, hundreds, that he doesn’t bring up as application? If Paul brings it up, we listen and follow.

 

[John146]

Is that what brings salvation?
All I know is you believe in Christ for the forgiveness of sin and you are saved.
Why make it so complicated?

Believe in Christ? Who was He and what did He do?

 

[Judges1318]

To Israel, for the Church. Big difference. We don’t literally have oxen, most of us.

You said, "If it’s not written to the Church, then don’t apply the doctrine to the Church."

The law of the oxen wasn't written to the Church, yet Paul applies it to the Church.

Now it looks like you're trying very hard to still be right about not applying a doctrine to the Church that wasn't written to the Church even though I gave you an example where Paul did that. If you drop the discussion here, so will I.

 

[Judges1318]

Believe in Christ?

Yes, trust in what he did for us.

Who was He and what did He do?

He is the Son of God, and he died as a ransom to set us free from sin and to rise from the dead to assume his role as High Priest before the Father in heaven for our justification. No need to complicate it beyond that.

 

[Guojing]

Paul is not making a distinction between believers and non-believers.

In context Paul is making the case of the absolute necessity of the the Resurrection, against the false teachers stating it did not happen.

Now I make known to you, brethren (15:1).

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

and you will see he continues to make his case...

...and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as it were to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. (1 Corinthians 15:5-8).

I think we forget "the times" when we read scripture... this was all so new to them, they did not have a Bible to reference.

yeah so i wonder why mailmandan used this distinction instead

 

[posthuman]

The law of the oxen now has a spiritual meaning and application, and it's spiritual meaning is applied equally to all believers.

the law has always been spiritual. it was given by God, who is spirit. those under Moses are obligated also to keep it physically. because the law of Moses was given to a stiff-necked, wicked and rebellious people constantly accusing God of evil. so to them it is precept upon precept, line upon line, to condemn sin and bring them to a knowledge of Christ.

what do you think enlightenment would take the form of, to a devout person under Moses meditating on the law of oxen?
do you think this is different from what you call 'a spiritual meaning and application' for a 'believer' ?

they drank of the same spiritual Rock; that Rock is Christ. there is only one gospel, and only ever has been one

 

[John146]

Yes, trust in what he did for us.


He is the Son of God, and he died as a ransom to set us free from sin and to rise from the dead to assume his role as High Priest before the Father in heaven for our justification. No need to complicate it beyond that.

That’s His testimony. That’s the faith of Christ in action.

 

[posthuman]

To Israel, for the Church. Big difference. We don’t literally have oxen, most of us.

The difference is Paul specifically brings this up. What about all the rest, hundreds, that he doesn’t bring up as application? If Paul brings it up, we listen and follow.

he said an awful lot more than he wrote.

there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written! Amen ​

(John 21:25) ​

​

i believe that every single word of the law presaged something in Christ's life on earth. every single iota of the OT has a NT correlation. some of those things may not be written for us but from what is written we can infer them: the bread He gave us is sufficient for us. but just because an apostle has not taught us something from the law, the psalms or the prophets doesn't make those things in the OT any less God's word. all of God's word is revelation of Himself to us, not just what has been carefully explained by the apostles and the Lord Jesus.

we should look for Christ on every page. that's how we'll find and know the truth, and knowing Him, be made free

 

[John146]

he said an awful lot more than he wrote.

there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written! Amen ​

(John 21:25) ​

​

i believe that every single word of the law presaged something in Christ's life on earth. every single iota of the OT has a NT correlation. some of those things may not be written for us but from what is written we can infer them: the bread He gave us is sufficient for us. but just because an apostle has not taught us something from the law, the psalms or the prophets doesn't make those things in the OT any less God's word. all of God's word is revelation of Himself to us, not just what has been carefully explained by the apostles and the Lord Jesus.

we should look for Christ on every page. that's how we'll find and know the truth, and knowing Him, be made free

Amen to this!

 

[dcontroversal]

....until you quit believing. Which means you never really believed to begin with. That's what osas doctrine says.

So, basically, no one can know for certain in this life if they have genuine faith in your doctrine. And that's supposed to be the supreme doctrine of security and assurance.

In my doctrine you really are saved if you are presently really believing. No, 'let's see' about it. Your changing behavior is the evidence of that believing.

Your problem is the MY attached to doctrine......exactly why you won't make the cut and why you peddle a false, skewed dogma!

 

[posthuman]

be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath ​

(James 1:19) ​

​

beloved brethren ♥

 

[dcontroversal]

To quit believing demonstrates a spurious belief. Authentic belief continues.

Believers can know if they truly believe and have have eternal life. (1 John 5:13) Prior to my conversion (while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago) I didn't know.

Yet in your doctrine, self preservation trumps God's preservation. We show our faith by our works, but we do not establish it.

I don't know even we even argue with this joker....he is peddling a false view that binds men to hell and makes them two fold the children of hell, just like the Pharisees.....he was clear above...IN MY DOCTRINE.....not the doctrine Jesus, Paul or any other writer proclaimed!!

 

[dcontroversal]

it doesn't not say that.
it says if you believe, you are saved. by extension if you don't believe, you aren't saved.
what it says about 'unless you believed in vain' is addressing whether the resurrection is real or not; the double-minded logical contradiction of believing the gospel and denying the raising of the dead.

does being stupid in your thinking, holding doctrines which are contrary to the gospel when they're taken to their logical conclusions, count as unbelief?
does it count as unbelief before you've been corrected? does it count as unbelief if you've been corrected and refused to accept the truth? does it count as unbelief if it just hasn't sunk in yet?

that's one question raised. another question raised is whether true faith is faith that persists or not; that isn't being addressed in this chapter. where is that addressed? 1 John 2:19 is pretty clear and it forms a basis for one answer to that second question. what do you say about it? do you believe it?

Amen migo.....these court jesters absolutely cannot grasp or accept context.....it destroys their narrative and false dogmas!

 

[posthuman]

I believe it.....because that's what the Bible says. But we have to realize it can't be applied the way osas applies it. The saved Galatians fell away from and left trust in Christ for justification and went back to trust in law keeping for justification. So how can 1 John 2:19 mean what osas says it means? It can't of course.

of course it does. that is exactly what 1 John 2:19 is addressing. those who are revealed in time to have fallen away are those who are revealed in time to have been borne with great patience but who were never among those given to the Son by the Father. no one can snatch out of His hand; not the Father's hand, not the Son's hand.

 

[posthuman]

Amen migo.....

on my first car i had a bumper sticker:

Jesús Christo es mi Mejor Amigo

________________________ ​

 

[dcontroversal]

it is certainly a blessing to need only scripture for your salvation, but that God would allow any of our observations to see His glory in science is an added benefit.

I will add.....this is addressed ...SCIENCE FALSLEY SO CALLED......most so called science is poppycock.......just saying!

 

[dcontroversal]

on my first car i had a bumper sticker:

Jesús Christo es mi Mejor Amigo​

​

________________________​

Love it hahah

 

[John146]

I will add.....this is addressed ...SCIENCE FALSLEY SO CALLED......most so called science is poppycock.......just saying!

Real science will always catch up with and agree with the Bible.

 

[posthuman]

Love it hahah

actually i had two stickers the other said 'official grateful dead sticker test vehicle' hahaha

but i remember the other all the time when you say amigo

 

[dcontroversal]

Here's what the Bible says:

"20 ...they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." - Romans 11:20-22


The passage you are referring to says the person who has works of love does not have to fear the coming judgment because his works are evidence of his salvation. He has no fear of judgment, because in this life he is like Jesus and shows he has the love of God in them in salvation and belongs to the truth:

"17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence" - 1 John 3:17-19

"12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.

16 ...God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." - 1 John 4:12,15-16

Meanwhile, this same person should "not be arrogant, but tremble", because if they don't continue in God's kindness and fall into unbelief they will be cut off just like the Israelites were cut off because of their unbelief.

Context rejection alert by a false teacher here in this post!