Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

it is certainly a blessing to need only scripture for your salvation, but that God would allow any of our observations to see His glory in science is an added benefit.

Romans 1 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, evenHis eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

 

[EleventhHour]

So you also agree he did raise an interesting point. 1 cor 15: v2 is not about right belief in terms of the one doing the believing. "believed in vain" does not mean someone who gave up believing, nor is that trying to distinguish between genuine believers vs fake believers.

Rather, its about whether the event that one believes did happen, which is Christ did rise from the dead. (vs 12-14).

This is the first time I heard this and it sounds logical.

Paul is not making a distinction between believers and non-believers.

In context Paul is making the case of the absolute necessity of the the Resurrection, against the false teachers stating it did not happen.

Now I make known to you, brethren (15:1).

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

and you will see he continues to make his case...

...and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as it were to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. (1 Corinthians 15:5-8).

I think we forget "the times" when we read scripture... this was all so new to them, they did not have a Bible to reference.

 

[Judges1318]

So why is NAB translation the only translation that states it that way, with 2 mights?

Because there really are two subjunctive mood verbs in the verse. That's why. Honest.

That sounds deceitful to me and really places doubt on whether or not those who believe in Him will or will not perish in John 3:16.

It's not deceitful. The verbs 'should not perish' and 'have everlasting life' are in the subjunctive mood, the mood of uncertainty.

Definition of "Subjunctive"
"...the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances."

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/3/1/t_conc_1000016

"Should" not perish (KJV) gets the point across of the subjunctive mood without going to the RC extreme of 2 mights.

As I've shown there are two subjunctive verb phrases in the verse.
It's not some kind of denominationally biased, extreme interpretation.

The Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by works and strongly opposes OSAS so I'm really not surprised by their translation. I am a bit surprised though that you see no red flag here and support the RC interpretation.

I have to support their interpretation because the verbs really are easily verified to be in the subjunctive mood of uncertainty.

It doesn't matter that they also believe in nosas as I do. The point is, they are accurately interpreting the verse according to Greek grammar. I'm not afraid to acknowledge when a denomination that I do not support or believe in gets something right. I don't automatically reject every single thing they say simply because I don't agree with their fundamental stance in Christianity.

Let me remind you, I believe that you have to believe all the way to the very end to be saved just like osas believes that. but I'm hardly a osas believer. I can agree with that, even though I resist osas doctrine and it's denominations in the church. They just happen to have that point right. I learned that you won't learn much in Christianity until you are willing to acknowledge the truths, if any, that lie in any doctrine or denomination, in or out of the church. Truth isn't in the extremes--popular or unpopular extremes. Truth is the collection of everything that's true that lies in between and connects all our various denominations.

If John 3:16 meant those who truly believe in Him merely "might not perish and merely might have eternal life," then that would contradict John 3:18 which clearly reads "is not condemned" and NOT "might not be condemned."

I agree.
So does that mean we ignore the subjunctive mood in vs. 16, or that we ignore the indicative mood in vs. 18?
There comes a point where us armchair Greek scholars have to bow out and acknowledge there are just some things we're not going to understand in Greek grammar without actually learning the language. But I think we can probably get some insight into the apparent contradiction by simply considering the verb tenses and verb moods and context together in each verse.

As I already pointed out in post #126,594 "should" subjunctive mood expresses a possibility or a consequence which results if a condition is met. In the case of John 3:16 the condition is “whoever believes in Him.” When that condition is met, two things happen. The person shall not perish, but receive eternal life.

Yes, of course.
But the condition you aren't taking into consideration is that person has to always be presently believing in Him for the possible outcome in question to be true, and that the believer may not always continue to believe.

I know it takes time for alternate thought to sink into us Christians who only get exposed to the narrow understanding that our denominations expose us to, but this additional insight I'm providing can't be seen by most osas'er because they instantly see 'believes' as 'will always believe' and can't even see, let alone agree with, the possibility of the true believer no longer believing in John 3:16 and other verses. And so they can't see any other way of understanding the verse. Even you, when shown the mood of the verbs are aghast at the thought that the verse might actually be saying the outcome is not automatically sure for the person who believes, because you've been taught that 'believes' always and without exception means 'will always believe'.

Actually, half or more of the English translations of John 3:16 do not use the word should, and maybe because the translators felt that might confuse people. The NASB and NIV read, “whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” The NET Bible, LEB, and HCSB have the same translation except they use "will" instead of shall (will not perish).

'Will not perish' is not consistent with the subjunctive mood of the verb. So I don't know what compels those versions of the Bible to change the mood from subjunctive (the mood of uncertainty) to indicative (the mood of surety), except to resolve what appears (to us) to be a contradiction between vs. 16, and vs. 18 where the mood is indicative. That's the best I have at this point. You brought it up and I have to examine it more before I can comment any more about it beyond the simple fact that the Catholics really are interpreting vs. 16 correctly. They really are.

 

[EleventhHour]

God has said,
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (upon one occasion only)".
(Heb 10:10 KJV)

As you know "Once for all" is ἐφάπαξ in the Greek. Strong's Lexicon in the back of his concordance concurs that it means upon one occasion only .
ἐφάπαξ
ephapax
ef-ap'-ax
From G1909 and G530; upon one occasion (only): - (at) once (for all).

GOD has said,

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever (not sanctified forever) them that are sanctified. WHEREOF (this perfection in which we speak) the Holy Ghost ALSO is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them."


NOT SANCTIFIED forever, Sanctification can be lost as verses 26-29 put forth through God's Holy Spirit.

For GOD has said,
"For if WE (the church, including the writer) are sinning willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (those who are sinning willfully). He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? ( GOD'S Law in the hearts and minds)"
(Heb 10:26-29)

WAS SANCTIFIED, Sanctification LOST because they done despite unto the Spirit of grace which they were given Because GOD has said it must be so.

You responded to me.

"no more sacrifice for sins" means that Jesus paid the full price.

Verse 32 and 35 ... denies all you argue... the temporal is in view not the eternal.

Hebrews 10:32, KJV: "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;"

35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

Positional sanctification is our standing with God our immutable status.

Christ is our sanctification. Christ imparted His sanctification.

Our positional sanctification is just as perfect as Christ is perfect. Just as much as He is set apart, we in Him are set apart.

Do you even realize to state that sanctification can be lost is to state Jesus looses His SANCTIFICATION.

“We have been sanctified . . . are sanctified” by the once for all perfect sacrifice of Christ (Heb. 10:10, 29; 2:11; 9:13-14; 10:14; 13:12). This position never ever changes.

Christ position does not change, our position does not change.

You need to separate the temporal from the eternal, position of saved(eternal) from the walk of faith which is temporal within that eternal reality.

Wake up to what you teach and get out of that fellowship with other false teachers!!!

 

[Judges1318]

Actually, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Christ was completely obedient to every word of His father.

I guess the error you're making is saying Christ's believing (trusting) is our believing. No, the believing (trusting) part is ours. The faith--the evidence of things not seen--that God gives us to base our believing on is surely only from Him, not us.

 

[Judges1318]

does this not apply to you?

you've had teachers who told you to live in fear of losing your salvation. you've parroted defenses of this. you repeat isolated verses to justify your view, and you filter what you read by what you presuppose to be the truth -- do you not?

No.

I don't even attend a church. And for this very reason.
They're too denominationally segregated and don't have, or allow, honest discussion of scripture outside of their predetermined stances and beliefs.

does this not apply to you?

you've had teachers who told you to live in fear of losing your salvation.

No, I have not had teachers who told me to live in fear of losing my salvation.

But I do have a Bible that teaches me that I should fear falling into unbelief, and that I do not have to fear for my salvation as long as I'm holding fast to the gospel by which I was and am being saved.

 

[CherieR]

To quit believing demonstrates a spurious belief. Authentic belief continues.

Believers can know if they truly believe and have have eternal life. (1 John 5:13) Prior to my conversion (while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago) I didn't know.

Yet in your doctrine, self preservation trumps God's preservation. We show our faith by our works, but we do not establish it.

What distinguishes authentic faith verses a spurious belief? It is something I am curious about. What are some helpful Scriptures for this?

 

[Judges1318]

i actually grew up in a church that taught me i could lose my salvation - but i read the scripture myself, and what i read was that salvation is Christ's work, not mine....

How does that truth dismiss the fact that you have to trust in Christ, and keep trusting in Christ, to secure the salvation that is Christ's work alone? You're making a mistake by thinking that salvation being Christ's work means you do nothing at all, for or against it, to obtain or lose it. That's the stain Calvinism has left on the church at this present end of the age, whether you are Calvinist or not.

...that no one can take me out of His arms, and that He will never let go of me.

....as long as you keep believing.
That's the part you can't leave out.
But so many people leave that part out because they think Christ does even the believing part for us.

...it was contrary to what i was taught. i came to these beliefs despite what i was taught, not because it was what i was taught - and i came to them because i actually read the Bible myself and sought understanding from God, not from myself, and not swallowing what men - even men i respected greatly - told me without questioning it to find out whether it was true.

You're still missing the part about not believing anymore.

i believed in my security in Him - in His faithfulness to me - not because men taught me that.

Yes, security of salvation is right there in the scriptures for all to read and see.
But so is the fact that you have to continue to believe to stay in the security of God's salvation.

...men taught me the opposite.

I'm sure they did.
What you will see, perhaps, is an emphasis on the works of faith, not the believing part that prompts the works.

...i believe because it is what i found written; because i was taught by God, just as it is written - i believe Him, and tho i am nothing but an ignorant fool, even now, i know enough to know He is faithful and will complete in me what He began. i know it is Him who started this and that it is Him who will finish it. He will not fail.

....if you keep believing.
That's the part you're neglecting.

the experience of my life has been exactly the opposite of what you describe, @Judges1318
i am sure what you say is accurate for some people, even many. but i bet if we poll the people in this forum, you will be quite surprised that your assumption about quite a lot of people is very much inaccurate.

I stand by what I said. I've seen it over and over in churches and in forums: I see many people who did not know about a particular verse or passage of scripture that prevents them from having a certain interpretation of a verse or passage of scripture. But I see lots of people well educated in teaching and sharing and articulating the particular beliefs, with accompanying verses, of their particular denominational belief that they have been taught. But that's just it. They went to school or were taught it by someone else and learned it verbatim. They have no personal insights and revelations of their own from their own private Bible reading time. It's quite discouraging. That's why I don't go to church. The pastors don't even have this!

 

[posthuman]

But I do have a Bible that teaches me that I should fear falling into unbelief

weird.

mine says "do not be afraid" several times, that "there is no fear in love" and "perfect love casts out fear"

 

[John146]

I guess the error you're making is saying Christ's believing (trusting) is our believing. No, the believing (trusting) part is ours. The faith--the evidence of things not seen--that God gives us to base our believing on is surely only from Him, not us.

The believing part is ours, justification comes from Christ’s faith.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Judges1318]

The believing part is ours, justification comes from Christ’s faith.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

...even we have believed in Jesus Christ's faith..

Is that what you're saying the verse means?

 

[John146]

...even we have believed in Jesus Christ's faith..

Is that what you're saying the verse means?

The faith of Christ was on display as He was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. That’s the faith of Christ. He’s testimony. Our individual faith is our testimony as we live our lives in obedience to God’s word.

 

[John146]

...even we have believed in Jesus Christ's faith..

Is that what you're saying the verse means?

Here are some proof texts explaining what is the faith of Christ. The faith of Christ is His testimony. Comparing Scripture to Scripture:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

weird.

mine says "do not be afraid" several times, that "there is no fear in love" and "perfect love casts out fear"

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind

 

[Judges1318]

weird.

mine says "do not be afraid" several times, that "there is no fear in love" and "perfect love casts out fear"

Here's what the Bible says:

"20 ...they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." - Romans 11:20-22


The passage you are referring to says the person who has works of love does not have to fear the coming judgment because his works are evidence of his salvation. He has no fear of judgment, because in this life he is like Jesus and shows he has the love of God in them in salvation and belongs to the truth:

"17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence" - 1 John 3:17-19

"12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.

16 ...God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." - 1 John 4:12,15-16

Meanwhile, this same person should "not be arrogant, but tremble", because if they don't continue in God's kindness and fall into unbelief they will be cut off just like the Israelites were cut off because of their unbelief.

 

[Judges1318]

Here's what the Bible says:

"20 ...they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." - Romans 11:20-22


The passage you are referring to says the person who has works of love does not have to fear the coming judgment because his works are evidence of his salvation. He has no fear of judgment, because in this life he is like Jesus and shows he has the love of God in them in salvation and belongs to the truth:

"17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence" - 1 John 3:17-19

"12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.

16 ...God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." - 1 John 4:12,15-16

Meanwhile, this same person should "not be arrogant, but tremble", because if they don't continue in God's kindness and fall into unbelief they will be cut off just like the Israelites were cut off because of their unbelief.

Which is in contrast to what most churches teach.
They say your confidence comes from simply having made a confession of belief in Christ somewhere in the past, and on that alone you can be assured that you belong to the truth and will not enter into judgment, ever, and that's there no reason to ever fear. Well, as we can see, that's not exactly what the Bible says. Nobody can make such a boast (in Christ) until they have the mature love of Christ at work in and through them.

Assurance of salvation, and thus, no fear of coming judgment, comes from being able to see the life of Christ in what you do. Honesty, that probably rules out about 90-95% of the church.

 

[Judges1318]

Assurance of salvation, and thus, no fear of coming judgment, comes from being able to see the life of Christ in what you do. Honesty, that probably rules out about 90-95% of the church.

Most Christians find a (false) sense of assurance about salvation from a osas doctrine, not from what the Bible actually says assurance comes from.

(Please make note of the distinction between 'assurance' of salvation and 'security' of salvation when responding. They are different.)

Lol, 11th hour had it red x'd before my 5 minutes of editing is even up. She is free to teach us all why John was wrong about what actually gives us assurance in this life that we are saved and will not experience the judgment of God.

 

[BillG]

No.

I don't even attend a church. And for this very reason.
They're too denominationally segregated and don't have, or allow, honest discussion of scripture outside of their predetermined stances and beliefs.


No, I have not had teachers who told me to live in fear of losing my salvation.

But I do have a Bible that teaches me that I should fear falling into unbelief, and that I do not have to fear for my salvation as long as I'm holding fast to the gospel by which I was and am being saved.

Interesting.

You do not attend a church because of demoninational segregation and do not allow honest discussion of scripture outside of their predetermined stances and beliefs.

Where did they get them from?

The same Bible that teaches you as you say.

So in a sense the same Bible that teaches them teaches you.

Therefore you yourself are a denomination based on reading the same Bible and teach according to your predermined stance and believe and are teaching such.

I will give you one thing though, you are willing to discuss and disagree but you are no different from the churches you refuse to go to.

Anyway

Hebrews 10:24-25
24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

 

[Judges1318]

Therefore you yourself are a denomination based on reading the same Bible and teach according to your predermined stance and believe and are teaching such.

The difference is, I'm open minded and will listen to everyone to see what they have to say to see if it contributes to a full understanding of the Bible. I've learned lots that way.

Hebrews 10:24-25
24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

I have made a personal decision that I will not waste any more of my time in a church that is just that.....a waste of time. I actually get more out of talking about the Bible on line, and listening to Christians music on YouTube than I do in a literal, traditional church meeting. This is church for me. I mean that. Sometimes I get higher than a kite in the Spirit by doing this. I put on my favorite Christian music and discuss the Bible with you all and I get really built up.

I do not in any way want to dissuade any of you from no longer attending a brick and mortar church. Please continue to do what you are doing.

 

[Judges1318]

You do not attend a church because of demoninational segregation and do not allow honest discussion of scripture outside of their predetermined stances and beliefs.

Where did they get them from?

The same Bible that teaches you as you say.

As I explained, they get that from the professors who taught their pastors, and who are themselves just as isolated and locked into the predetermined stances and beliefs of the denomination that is paying them to teach those stances and beliefs to our pastors. It's a terrible system. But that's what we got.