A Distinction Between Tongues

[Dave-L]

Umm they said Jesus did miracles by demon power...

Only the religious leaders. Look at all who surrounded him.

 

[notuptome]

Already know your opinion Roger, you're entitled to it. And no, Pentecostals do not abuse tongues for their own purposes, now you are judging peoples intent and heart. I thought better of you brother. Disappointing.

I'm not reading tea leaves. I'm just examining the fruit. If tongues are active as many would have me to believe then I would see that manifested in their speech and conduct. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is clearly seen in those who love the Lord and desire to serve and glorify Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[NOV25]

Quote " If there is no interpreter you are to keep it to yourself. If they were praying there is nothing wrong with that. If they were all yelling over each other, that would be wrong. Nothing against praying in the spirit. Is there something wrong with women pastors? Watch your step, there are women pastors at CC.

Yes, I believe it be a lie and wrong and that person will be judged for it. That doesn't mean everyone who speaks in tongues is a liar and a fraud, and hope you're not indicating that.

No doubt. I have a pastor friend, as I posted above, that was told the way to salvation in his own language through tongues. He has a huge church now. Was that demonic? Did satan do that? Did that person make up the words? Yes, people misuse the gift, don't tar everyone with one brush. "

Please point out the word moron. Please point out where I accused you of anything. Now point out where I threatened you. I think you're being a little dramatic. As far as judging my words, people here know me, you do not. Last time I checked, God was our judge, maybe you should leave it with Him.

You called another member a moron, and claiming that I tar everyone with the same brush is unwarranted accusation, and your tone is threatening when you choose phrases like “watch your step”... You were in ministry for 20 years, this shouldn’t be a mystery to you. And to examine ones words and discern their heart is what we all do, it’s what we must do. I’m sure you wouldn’t have a problem with me agreeing with you, which is a form of judgement. If I said great job Kaylagrl, doubt you’d say don’t judge me moron. Lol.

 

[garee]

Yes, any one can speak gibberish. That doesn't mean all tongues is gibberish. The rest of what you said is someones personal opinion, nothing more.

I see that the other way around. It seems upside down in the way you are offering? .That is if you look to the foundation as a law of the Tongues Doctrine?

The law does mean all tongues is gibberish to those who have authority other than the word of God alone. . Shown by the sign of those who fall backward . . not wanting to hear what they call gibberish, God's word, with no oral tradition that could make the word of God without effect by those who hate (sola scriptura) the reforming authority of Christ in any generation..

Isiah 28:9-13 ERV The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies:“Saw lasaw saw lasawQaw laqaw qaw laqawZe’er sham ze’er sham.” So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people. In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds to them:“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.Ze’er sham ze’er sham.” When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured

They would be the ones that called the Christians drunks .Yet for all that they who walk by sight would still call those who walk by faith .Bible thumpers e.t.c.

Acts2:12 EVS The people were all amazed and confused. They asked each other, “What is happening?” But others were laughing at the apostles, saying they were drunk from too much wine.

 

[kaylagrl]

I'm not reading tea leaves. I'm just examining the fruit. If tongues are active as many would have me to believe then I would see that manifested in their speech and conduct. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is clearly seen in those who love the Lord and desire to serve and glorify Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Aww come on Roger. Now anyone who speaks in tongues doesn't have the fruit of the spirit and don't love the Lord?! Don't desire to serve and glorify Him?! Now you're getting personal and insulting. I traveled in ministry for 20 yrs. I didn't do it for my own health, that's for certain. And in that time of travel I lost both of my grandmothers and my aunt and had a tragic shooting death in the family. Just a few of the trials that we faced while traveling away from home. We stayed in freezing temps in winter and sweltered in summer. Unless you travel in ministry full time you have no idea what people face to bring the Gospel to the lost. I could tell you stories all day. And you sit there and say I don't love the Lord or desire to serve Him? Have YOU left the comfort of YOUR home to bring the message that Jesus saves to people in two countries?! How nasty can your statement be?! How judgemental and cruel.

 

[Aerials1978]

I was just thinking about this subject the other day. Glossolatia or xenolalia are certainly mysterious in the ways of the Lord. Do I believe this specific gift of the spirit is still prevalent today as it was during the Apostolic age? In all honesty I can’t say. I think there are fraudulent individuals who know they are a fake, there are those that want something more than God’s grace so they convince themselves that they are being channeled by the Holy Spirit, and there are those that are religious crazies.

I’m not saying God cannot continue to give this gift as He is God can do anything He wants. I also know our Lord is the God of order and purpose. He just doesn’t give freely without a specific intent for it. When someone claims the have “Spoke in tongues and prophesied” I really have to call into question the validity of their claim.

 

[Wansvic]

Part 2 –

The plain fact however, is that the “tongues” Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians are producing today is an entirely self-created phenomenon ...

The Apostle Paul's explanation of tongues debunks your cited opinion.

Paul makes it clear that one speaking in an unknown tongue is speaking unto God. Obviously through the connection of God's Spirit to mankind's spirit when He initially infiltrates their body. (1 Cor 14:2)

See 1 Cor 14:4: the one speaking to God via the Spirit connection is edified.

Paul's comment in verse 14 confirms he does not understand what he prays in the spirit. "...my understanding is unfruitful."

Paul goes on to express there are times he understands what he is praying and singing. And there are times he has no idea what he prays and sings. Clearly what is coming forth is a result of the Spirit connection. Due to the biblical record one can conclude that Paul was confident that whatever God was placing in his spirit was necessary in order to fulfill God's will in one way or another. Paul was willing to give God full access to his body. This proves he was not a control freak. He humbled himself for the purposes of God.

Paul confirms speaking in tongues is speaking in an unknown language in verses 18 and 19. First he expresses he is thankful that he has the ability to speak in tongues a lot. Clearly he is edified immensely due to the direct connection to God in praying that way. Secondly, he mentions that speaking ten thousand words unknown words in the church will have no benefit to the hearers. So he would rather speak five words in a language church members know so they would benefit from what he is saying.

My confidence is and will always be steadfast in the Word. The bible alone contains God inspired information by which everyone will be judged. On judgment day no one will be excused because they chose to believe a man's opinion that attempted to explain away the truth God provided for equipping His bride to do His will.

1 Cor 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Cor 14:4
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

1 Cor 14:14-15
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

1 Cor 14:18-19
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

 

[Kavik]

I’d like to see the video, sincerely. I personally believe scripture reveals the gift of tongues to be the speaking of someone else’s native language to spread the gospel. But I am also not about to say that there is no heavenly language and the Holy Spirit won’t lead people to speak it. Who am I to limit what God does?
My concern is those who falsely speak in tongues, I believe that to be lying. As a Christian Ive been given a love for all men and the desire that they be saved. If my “brother” lies regularly about anything I would bring it to his attention, no matter the subject.
And on a personal note, I’m sure you’ve weighed the cost of the YouTube video, people, “Christians” can be ravenous, it won’t be pretty in the comments section.

Well, there may indeed by a heavenly language, but it’s most certainly not modern T-speech. There’s just absolutely nothing about it that can’t be explained in somewhat simple linguistic terms. Further, no two people will ever have the same “tongue”. If modern tongues were indeed a heavenly language, why would there ever need to be more than just one, instead of one for each ‘speaker’. Although somewhere therein I suspect lies part of the origin of the concept of "private prayer language".

I don’t know that anyone is purposely trying to defraud, so to speak. My experience is that most people genuinely believe they are speaking a language (“heavenly” or otherwise). In instances where it seems obvious the glossic utterance is being made up as the speaker goes along, I have to wonder if it’s more a “survival” sort of thing, i.e. the desire to “fit in” with fellow ‘tongues-speakers’, or their particular spiritual path/denomination in general. The idea that ‘tongues-speech is expected, so I’d better come up with something’ sort of thing.

LOL – yes, I think that’s probably why I’ve delayed so long in getting something out there. How to present it properly and, of course, that potential train wreckage called the ‘comment section’.

 

[Wansvic]

A distinction between tongues. A lying tongue is distinct from the tongue that declares the righteousness of Christ.

There is not a single record of Christ speaking in tongues. The tongues of Pentecost are nothing like the tongues many professing folks claim to exercise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Speaking in tongues originated after Jesus ascended. Jesus stated He must leave in order to send the Holy Spirit into the world. Speaking in tongues pours forth from the body when the Holy Spirit enters it. Jesus told the disciples to stay in Jerusalem and wait to be empowered by the Holy Spirit before going forth to evangelist the world.

 

[1ofthem]

I’d like to see the video, sincerely. I personally believe scripture reveals the gift of tongues to be the speaking of someone else’s native language to spread the gospel. But I am also not about to say that there is no heavenly language and the Holy Spirit won’t lead people to speak it. Who am I to limit what God does?
My concern is those who falsely speak in tongues, I believe that to be lying. As a Christian Ive been given a love for all men and the desire that they be saved. If my “brother” lies regularly about anything I would bring it to his attention, no matter the subject.
And on a personal note, I’m sure you’ve weighed the cost of the YouTube video, people, “Christians” can be ravenous, it won’t be pretty in the comments section.

I hope none of this comes across as sarcasm or judgmental.

This is a fair statement. I've gone to Pentecostal churches and the ones that I have gone to say that you better not fake it because if you do that could be considered blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. So even Pentecostals (the one's I'm associated with anyhow) warn of that.

Also those videos of people teaching other people to speak in tongues is trash to me. I won't watch stuff like that. To me if it is a gift of the Spirit then it will come through the Spirit. I won't need to be making up any words.

 

[kaylagrl]

You called another member a moron, and claiming that I tar everyone with the same brush is unwarranted accusation, and your tone is threatening when you choose phrases like “watch your step”... You were in ministry for 20 years, this shouldn’t be a mystery to you. And to examine ones words and discern their heart is what we all do, it’s what we must do. I’m sure you wouldn’t have a problem with me agreeing with you, which is a form of judgement. If I said great job Kaylagrl, doubt you’d say don’t judge me moron. Lol.

Please post where I called another member a moron. tks. I said do not tar everyone with the same brush, yes, and I think you know what I meant by that. And if you think my tone was "threatening" you're on the wrong forum and you better buckle up. BDF is known for being rough.

Now, you were not being threatened,I was warning you, hear that word again, warning you that there were women pastors here at CC at that tends to be a trigger among members. I was letting you know it's akin to throwing a bomb around here. Since you are a new member I was letting you know, not threatening you. You're welcome.

Lastly there is no way to discern a persons heart on a forum. Trust me. I've written to my own family members who know my heart, and been taken wrong. When I talk to them they say " well I knew you weren't like that"! And I realize that you cannot communicate online when you have issues. You can't tell sarcasm, there is no facial expression, no voice inflection. So I don't even bother. I pick up the phone and talk it out if I can't be face to face. Most of what we say here we would never say if we were having a coffee together at the local shop.

 

[Wansvic]

I went to a Pentecostal church twice with some friends who are members. The pastor was having some medical issues so his wife filled in as preacher on both occasions, which were separated by a few months.
On the second visit I witnessed her start to speak strangely about half way through the sermon. She started’ah drawing’ah out her wordsss’ah seemingly trying to raise emotion I guess. before the sermon was over there were people up front kneeling and praying and my buddy took me up. They placed hands on me (and others) and I could hear them all speaking in ”tongues”. The one closest to me was almost speaking in my ear and this went in for minutes, long enough to analyze the sounds. I’m no expert but it was painfully obvious to me that he was making up his own words. Not to make fun but remember when you were a kid maybe you tried to speak Chinese but had no idea what you were doing, that’s what he was doing. It was like wang twang twong pwong, with a slow southern draw no less.
I found it a little humorous and sad, tried to pray for them amongst all the commotion. When I went home I read this:

1 Corinthians 14:27-33 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

So just to summarize my first experience hearing tongues. Approximately 6 people all speaking at once, no interpreter, all led by a woman preacher.
Holy Spirit inspired contradiction of scripture? Absolutely not.

Questions:
Would falsely speaking in tongues be considered a lie?
If so, would it be lying in the name of God?
Is that considered blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
Can someone who is actually born again, that is to say the Holy Trinity abides in that person, speak in tongues falsely?

This seems to be an example of people speaking in their personal prayer language in the church setting. Paul stated that to do so causes confusion and is not beneficial to the hearers. However, this does not negate the fact that God established the Spiritual gift of speaking in tongues as a ministry tool when correctly utilized and followed by the Spiritual gift of interpretation. (1 Corinthians 12 and 14)

 

[Aerials1978]

This seems to be an example of people speaking in their personal prayer language in the church setting. Paul stated that to do so causes confusion and is not beneficial to the hearers. However, this does not negate the fact that God established the Spiritual gift of speaking in tongues as a ministry tool when correctly utilized and followed by the Spiritual gift of interpretation. (1 Corinthians 12 and 14)

Speaking in tongues(fake or real) at a Pentecostal Church I can deal with. Once the venomous snakes are brought out, I draw the line.

 

[Wansvic]

I’d like to see the video, sincerely. I personally believe scripture reveals the gift of tongues to be the speaking of someone else’s native language to spread the gospel. But I am also not about to say that there is no heavenly language and the Holy Spirit won’t lead people to speak it. Who am I to limit what God does?
My concern is those who falsely speak in tongues, I believe that to be lying. As a Christian Ive been given a love for all men and the desire that they be saved. If my “brother” lies regularly about anything I would bring it to his attention, no matter the subject.
And on a personal note, I’m sure you’ve weighed the cost of the YouTube video, people, “Christians” can be ravenous, it won’t be pretty in the comments section.

I hope none of this comes across as sarcasm or judgmental.

I do not see your comments as sarcastic or judgmental.

As you mentioned the scripture reveals that speaking in tongues is a ministry tool. Considering this, there would be no need to second guess that it is authentic. The Word is clearly the final authority, not one's lack of personal experience.

There is no doubt that when there is a a stated concept of truth in the Word that the enemy will always contrive to push a counterfeit.

I believe the wise thing to do is focus on building one's personal relationship with Jesus. As to what others are doing that is between them and God. We will all be judged on what we do in this life.

 

[Dino246]

Be conformed to the image of Christ.
If "not speaking in tongues" were consistent with "be conformed to the image of Christ", then Paul obviously wasn't, the other disciples obviously weren't, and Scripture teaches the Corinthians not to be. Your position is inconsistent and therefore wrong.

Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Irrelevant slander... unless you are speaking of yourself.

 

[Wansvic]

This was in Acts. The Epistles show an absence of the gifts.

“Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.” (2 Timothy 4:20) (KJV 1900)

“Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” (1 Timothy 5:23) (KJV 1900)

“Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.” (Galatians 4:12–15) (KJV 1900)

(alternate translation of the above passage) “you know that previously I preached the gospel to you because of a physical illness. You did not despise or reject me though my physical condition was a trial for you. On the contrary, you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.” (Galatians 4:13–14)(HCSB)

“What happened to this sense of being blessed you had? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.” (Galatians 4:15)(HCSB)

“For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.” (Philippians 2:26–27) (KJV 1900)

Paul left Trophimus in Miletus when he was sick (II Tim 4:20), and Epaphroditus was sick to the point of death (Phil 2:27). Timothy was encouraged to use wine for his stomach ailments (1 Tim 5:23). God never removed Paul's thorn in the flesh (II Cor 12:1-10).

Mankind lives in a fallen world. Therefore, there is illness, etc. This is no different than in biblical times. And now as then, some are healed and some are not. Only God has the answer as to why.

 

[Noose]

God is not in the business of doing supernatural things, but He allows them once in a while for specific purposes after which, the natural order has to be restored.
God gifted a specific donkey the ability to speak, once the purpose was achieved, the natural order was restored. From that time, no donkey has ever spoken.

The purpose for the gifts was to establish a church by setting the foundation; we are no longer building this foundation.

Heb 2:3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

 

[Wansvic]

Scripture declares tongues as no longer necessary.

The Spiritual gift of tongues will continue to be necessary as long as Jesus continues to draw people to repentance that need to be born again. Remember Spiritual gifts are distributed to Christians by God for assistance in ministering to others.

When Jesus returns there will no longer be the need for ministry gifts because mankind's job will have come to an end.

 

[NOV25]

This is a fair statement. I've gone to Pentecostal churches and the ones that I have gone to say that you better not fake it because if you do that could be considered blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. So even Pentecostals (the one's I'm associated with anyhow) warn of that

Guess that sort of answers my question, can a born again, Spirit filled person speak in tongues falsely? I dunno. I mean Christians sin in many ways on a regular basis, should this be considered more severe? I don’t think so. But with any sin our brother commits outwardly and habitually are we not to carefully observe and examine to see if improvement takes place. Maybe offer word and verse to encourage correction. If correction is refused in a vengeful state and sin continues or increases should we then fear his state of salvation? At what point do we draw the line between stumbling Christian and non-Christian? Between praying for a brother’s sin and praying for a non believer to be saved?

 

[garee]

Speaking in tongues(fake or real) at a Pentecostal Church I can deal with. Once the venomous snakes are brought out, I draw the line.

They both speak of the same. (false prophecy )

Venomous snakes that speak as false apostles, false prophets just as those who make a noise and fall backward in order to show they rebel against the word of God making it to no effect by the oral traditions of men.

The signs (many) below with one spiritual understanding as metaphors. . . that follow after believers who have already head the word of God, are like those in the parable below. They teach us to avoid the oral traditions of sign and wonderment seekers. Spiritual gifts not seen, yes . Sign gifts seen no. We walk by faith not by sight.


Mark 16:17-19 King James Version (KJV)And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I would ofer that they cast out devils by the power of their new born again tongue as prophecy, the gospel as it is written They will not be influenced by the poisin of false prophecy it shall not hurt them . They wil pray and offer the gospel in a hope others will hear and believe will recover. reveleing the healing power of the gospel . Not a sign for self ediifying as a wonderment