Can One’s Salvation Be Given Up?

[Guojing]

You are correct with understanding who Jesus was talking to, time period, culture, place and topic. All can provide us with clarity.

No Jesus wasn't promoting a legalistic system but was in fact providing a clear example of the law and how more than likely anyone who heard the Beatitudes saw their own imperfections. Which is the main idea behind most of Jesus's teachings. The law was Holy and perfect so by us taking what Jesus said in the Beatitudes and applying it to our lives, we would be acting from love as Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commands.

Jesus made a hard push to show the hypocrisy of the day by providing countless examples of how people just didn't measure up. The whole idea was to get them to understand the true role of the Messiah.

Matthew 5:17-20 New International Version (NIV)
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Of course the Gentiles at first wasn't the main focus even though it had been prophesied and Jesus did in fact have many different occasions with Gentiles including 1 who he said had the greatest of faith. Or the woman at the well who he told to believe in him. When Peter first preached after receiving the Spirit, he was preaching to people from all over the known world including Gentiles. Many came to faith.

Paul was obviously more of a scholarly man so of course his teachings was often deeper and even hard for scholars today to agree on. But that doesn't prove anything. Paul and the Disciples taught the same Gospel. Paul was sent more to the Gentiles while the disciples mainly focused on the Jews but also spread out to the gentile world.

One gospel required the Law of Moses to be kept, the other gospel, people are dead to the Law.

That to me is a very significant difference. I have no idea why people keep insisting they are the same gospel.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

One gospel required the Law of Moses to be kept, the other gospel, people are dead to the Law.

That to me is a very significant difference. I have no idea why people keep insisting they are the same gospel.

OT and NT. NT definitely wasn't pushing at any point that the law of Moses saved anyone. In fact I could argue it never saved anyone. It has always been about faith.

So how do you view the 4 eyewitness accounts and beginning of acts? How do you respond the Red letters of Jesus? I'm trying to figure out what do you separate from Paul.

I personally see the whole NT as inspired and every verse is important.

 

[garee]

I am not asking this question from a theological perspective, but instead from a matter of fact. I tend to lean towards yes, one can “Give up” their salvation.

Scripture states that salvation cannot be take from a believer, but there are passages that indicate that a person can essentially forgo this free gift of God. I have listed verses below that I believe can verify this concept:

Matthew 5:13
Matthew 3:10
Mark 4:1-20
Revaluation 3:14-19

If you agree or disagree, please feel to explain why.

In a certain sense every time we deny Christ working in us to both will and perform His good will we have denied Him of the faith he gives or works in us .

The goal of our faith is that we can praise him "all day long" without denying Him

An example of David being faithful to the lord .all day long

Psalm 35:27-28 King James Version (KJV) Let them "shout for joy", and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the Lord be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant. And my tongue shall speak of thy righteousness and of thy praise all the day long.

When we act foolish then we are filled with disease. Then we have no Joy. Like those in Hebrews 6 who hear but do not believe, him who has begun the good unseen work in us the better things that accompanies salvation

An example of David denying the Lord. . . all day long
.
Psalm 38:5-7 King James Version (KJV) My wounds stink and are corrupt because of "my foolishness". I am troubled; I am bowed down greatly; I go mourning all the day long. For my loins are filled with a loathsome disease: and there is no soundness in my flesh.

2 Timothy 2 puts it all together informing us Christ cannot deny his own self.

2 Timothy 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we "believe not", yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, but repentance does not mean to stop sinning. Repentance is a change of mind.

Strong's Concordance
metanoia: change of mind, repentance
Original Word: μετάνοια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: metanoia
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an'-oy-ah)
Definition: change of mind, repentance
Usage: repentance, a change of mind, change in the inner man.

https://biblehub.com/greek/3341.htm

 

[Guojing]

OT and NT. NT definitely wasn't pushing at any point that the law of Moses saved anyone. In fact I could argue it never saved anyone. It has always been about faith.

So how do you view the 4 eyewitness accounts and beginning of acts? How do you respond the Red letters of Jesus? I'm trying to figure out what do you separate from Paul.

I personally see the whole NT as inspired and every verse is important.

How do you regard the OT then? Do you regard every verse just as important to you too, like you do for the NT?

 

[Judges1318]

Okay, if you insist its the same, I can understand why you do.

I'm not sure you really do understand why.
Notice what Paul says here:

16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it (the inheritance) to Abraham by means of a promise.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Galatians 3:16-18,28-29

First, notice this is written to gentiles.
As you can see, the gospel is, and always has been, all about God's promise to Abraham about the inheritance. It hasn't changed. We just know more details now about the Son of Promise.

 

[Guojing]

I'm not sure you really do understand why.
Notice what Paul says here:

16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it (the inheritance) to Abraham by means of a promise.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Galatians 3:16-18,28-29

First, notice this is written to gentiles.
As you can see, the gospel is, and always has been, all about God's promise to Abraham about the inheritance. It hasn't changed. We just know more details now about the Son of Promise.

Yes, after Stephen was stoned, the gospel of the kingdom has been postponed until the Tribulation.

So, after Paul was raised, there is only one gospel, the gospel of the grace of God which the ascended Christ Jesus revealed to Paul, in which Jews and Gentiles are now saved under. You are correct, this mystery has been hidden in God since the foundation of the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

But what Peter preached in early Acts was not that gospel, it was still the gospel of the kingdom. It was not time yet for God to reveal the mystery, and Peter was not the person God chose to reveal that mystery to.

Once you are able to rightly divide the word, this distinction is easy to see.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

How do you regard the OT then? Do you regard every verse just as important to you too, like you do for the NT?

The Whole Bible is important. Yes every verse is connected from Genesis to Revelation. Each book with it's own design and purpose. Each book being inspired by God. Every verse is important to the context of each chapter. The OT is important to me as a gentile because it provides the foundation for how we are here, why, what went wrong and how God throughout history slowly provides a way to fix it.

 

[Guojing]

The Whole Bible is important. Yes every verse is connected from Genesis to Revelation. Each book with it's own design and purpose. Each book being inspired by God. Every verse is important to the context of each chapter. The OT is important to me as a gentile because it provides the foundation for how we are here, why, what went wrong and how God throughout history slowly provides a way to fix it.

So if I were to say that the 4 Gospels and early Acts are as OT, as the rest of the OT are to the gentiles, would that be shocking?

Think of prophecy vs mystery, the mystery was revealed specially to Paul to reveal to us Gentiles.

Everything else before that was prophecy and was directed to the Jews, ever since God called Abraham.

 

[John146]

No, I'm not saying they preached the death and resurrection of Christ.

Well, that's what Paul preached, so they did preach different messages. The gospel that Paul preached was specifically how Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day. This message is to all the world. The gospel of the kingdom was restricted to Jews only.

 

[John146]

"I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.” - Acts 26:22-23

Yes, but the cross was hid from everyone, even the prophets who prophesied concerning Jesus. The cross was only revealed after the resurrection.

 

[John146]

That is the result of anticipating revelation, inserting Paul into the 4 Gospels and early Acts.

Amen, and so they insert the cross into the messages. Without Paul's revelations we would never understand the cross and how to live the crucified life.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, but the cross was hid from everyone, even the prophets who prophesied concerning Jesus. The cross was only revealed after the resurrection.

I recently read an article on Gotquestions.org that sounds similar to what you are saying. - https://www.gotquestions.org/before-Jesus.html

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Peter preached the death of Jesus as a murder indictment to the Jews (whom ye have crucified), and the resurrection as proof to all the Jews that Jesus was indeed the Son of God and their promised Messiah (both Lord and Christ) (Acts 2:36)

That verse is the critical part of the sermon he preached that pricked the hearts of all the Jewish listeners so its worth highlighting here, for all of us to read slowly and digest:

Therefore let all the house of Israel (Notice Peter was not concerned about the Gentiles at all here) know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

That is the same message that form the basis of the gospel of the Kingdom. (John 20:31)

Jacob's name was changed, by God, to be called "Israel", Gen 33:28. Jacob/Israel is representative of all of God's elect children, Rom 9:11. There is the "nation of Israel" and there is "the house of Israel", which is Jacob/Israel, and includes all of God's elect, both Jews and Gentiles.

The men that were "pricked in their heart", in Acts, were born again, elect children of God. The natural man, until he has been born again, cannot be pricked in his heart to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern, 1 Cor 2:14. The natural men that heard the same accusations from Steven, were "cut to the heart" and stoned him to death.

Notice the different reaction of those that were pricked in their heart, and those that were cut to the heart.

 

[John146]

I recently read an article on Gotquestions.org that sounds similar to what you are saying. - https://www.gotquestions.org/before-Jesus.html

Similar, I would add that sometimes, most of the time, the faith of those OT saints required obedience through works. Their faith had to be demonstrated through their obedience to what God had given them at that time.

Today, we simply trust the message of the cross and that alone brings salvation. No works is required.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

So if I were to say that the 4 Gospels and early Acts are as OT, as the rest of the OT are to the gentiles, would that be shocking?

Think of prophecy vs mystery, the mystery was revealed specially to Paul to reveal to us Gentiles.

Everything else before that was prophecy and was directed to the Jews, ever since God called Abraham.

So in your opinion they should be listed in the last part of the OT and the NT starting in the middle of Acts?

But still you haven't said what do you do with the red letter words of Jesus? Do you take Paul's letters more over the words of Jesus? Or are they equally important to the believer?

Still trying to understand. I'm not really seeing the importance here. What in your theology is supposed to change the beliefs of others theologians?

 

[Judges1318]

Yes, but the cross was hid from everyone, even the prophets who prophesied concerning Jesus. The cross was only revealed after the resurrection.

That's not a different gospel. It's more details of the same gospel.

 

[John146]

That's not a different gospel. It's more details of the same gospel.

Of course it's different. Paul never preached the gospel of the kingdom. Paul's gospel was called the gospel of the grace of God or the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The gospel of the kingdom was for the Jews only. Paul's gospel is for everyone. Why the difference? The Jews earthly kingdom is not to be preached to the Gentiles or Samaritans.

 

[Judges1318]

Similar, I would add that sometimes, most of the time, the faith of those OT saints required obedience through works. Their faith had to be demonstrated through their obedience to what God had given them at that time.

Today, we simply trust the message of the cross and that alone brings salvation. No works is required.

No, Paul made it clear that Abraham was justified apart from works. Before his circumcision. Before anything he did.
He's showing that's how it's always been. The covenant of law did not change that. It can't.
This is explained in Galatians.

Abraham believed God regarding the promise of a son who would inherit the blessing on his behalf, and was justified through his faith.
We also believe God regarding the promise of the Son who has inherited the blessing on our behalf, and are justified through that faith.
Same gospel. Same truth.
We just know more details about it than he did.
The gospel has always been about faith in God's promise of a son.

 

[notuptome]

Salvation by grace through faith cannot be given up, lost or walked away from. Man is not sovereign and is under the authority of Christ or sin at all times. Christ does not ever lose any that are His by grace. None are His by deeds of their own hands.

For the cause of Christ
Roger