Free Will compatible with Sovereignty

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Judges1318

Banned
#221
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
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#221
ForestGreenCook said:
Man cannot "decide to trust in Jesus" when he is spiritually dead, 1 Cor 2:14. A man is not spiritually alive until he has been regenerated, Eph 2, and has been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
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No, the testimony of the Holy Spirit is sufficient to instill faith in the heart of an unregenerate man.

it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the a Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. - 1 John 5:6-10

Some reject the evidence of things unseen given to them by the Holy Spirit, and some accept that evidence and place their trust in it and are saved.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#222
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#222
Judges1318 said:
No, the testimony of the Holy Spirit is sufficient to instill faith in the heart of an unregenerate man.

it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the a Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. - 1 John 5:6-10

Some reject the evidence of things unseen given to them by the Holy Spirit, and some accept that evidence and place their trust in it and are saved.
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The natural man, until he has been born of God (regenerated) cannot believe that Jesus is the Christ. 1 John 5:1, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ "is born of God"; You are giving the natural man abilities that he does not have, by taking your verses out of context. The natural man is already born of God before he has the ability to believe.
 
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Judges1318

Banned
#223
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#223
ForestGreenCook said:
The natural man, until he has been born of God (regenerated) cannot believe that Jesus is the Christ. 1 John 5:1
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Yes he can because the testimony of God himself through the Holy Spirit is the 'evidence of the unseen' (a.ka. faith) that one must possess in order to be able to place their trust in Jesus to be forgiven of their sins and saved as a result. You don't have to be born again to know the gospel is true. You only need to hear the voice of God in your heart to know it's true. From there you either retain that testimony in your heart, believing it, and become born again, or you cast it from your heart in a choice to not believe it and are lost.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#225
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#225
Judges1318 said:
Then why does he need to believe?
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When we are first regenerated, we are new born babes in Christ and began to mature as we hear and understand the word of God, which are instructions as to how God wants us to live our lives while we sojourn here on earth. The more we believe in the instructions and follow them the more joy and peace we enjoy as we live here on earth.

Saved in Greek means "delivered". The scriptures teach that we are saved (delivered) many times here in this world, as we learn and follow God's instructions. The word also tells us how we were delivered eternally by Christ's death upon the cross.

Our eternal deliverance was accomplished by Christ's death upon the cross, and was a sacrifice that was made to God, for God's acceptance, and not to man, for man's acceptance. The deliverances we receive here on earth are deliverances given by God when man accepts his instructions on how to live our lives here on earth. So, there is an eternal salvation, and a timely salvation that is taught in the scriptures. One is by God's sovereign grace, and the other is by man's good works in obedience to God's instructions on how to live our lives here on earth.

We will never understand the doctrine that Jesus taught, until we separate the salvation scriptures to there specific meanings. If we apply all of the salvation scriptures to mean eternal salvation, they will "seemingly" teach eternal salvation by the good works of man.
 
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Judges1318

Banned
#226
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#226
ForestGreenCook said:
If we apply all of the salvation scriptures to mean eternal salvation, they will "seemingly" teach eternal salvation by the good works of man.
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Yes, 'seemingly'.
They don't, though.
The distorted and corrupted grace message in these end times makes it look like Jesus had a different gospel message.

I debated an atheist with the name Davis on his website many years ago. He was sure Jesus did not teach salvation by faith. Well, he was wrong. He swore there was no message of salvation by faith in the gospels.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#227
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#227
Judges1318 said:
Yes, 'seemingly'.
They don't, though.
The distorted and corrupted grace message in these end times makes it look like Jesus had a different gospel message.

I debated an atheist with the name Davis on his website many years ago. He was sure Jesus did not teach salvation by faith. Well, he was wrong. He swore there was no message of salvation by faith in the gospels.
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Eternal deliverance is by the faith of Jesus. Our spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. We do not have spiritual faith until we have been regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once we have been born again, our faith can deliver us from the things of this world when we follow the commandments of God. There is an eternal salvation (deliverance), and there is a timely salvation (deliverance). Salvation in Greek means "a deliverance".
 
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Judges1318

Banned
#228
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#228
ForestGreenCook said:
Eternal deliverance is by the faith of Jesus. Our spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. We do not have spiritual faith until we have been regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once we have been born again, our faith can deliver us from the things of this world when we follow the commandments of God. There is an eternal salvation (deliverance), and there is a timely salvation (deliverance). Salvation in Greek means "a deliverance".
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No, I asked for God's forgiveness, then I was changed.
Really. I was there.
It was that dramatic.
It really was like a new birth.
And it happened after I asked to be forgiven.
 
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garee

Banned
#229
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#229
Judges1318 said:
No, I asked for God's forgiveness, then I was changed.
Really. I was there.
It was that dramatic.
It really was like a new birth.
And it happened after I asked to be forgiven.
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Romans 3 inform us no man of his own volition can seek after a God not seen .They have no understanding. Making it impossible.

According to the loving law of repentance. To repent is to comfort or ease discomfort of oneself. . As in all things God not seen must do the first works. I think the doctrine of repentance is shown in a parable found in Jerimiah 31 . Using a bull that is unaccustomed to a yoke. Having no understanding of the Master . The Master pulls hard on the left reign and the Ox moaning then turns left to ease the hard pull so that in turn, it can ease and comfort his self. Little effort to pull needed. As a Good master he makes are burden lighter. Two turnings .Him turning us .having ben turned . ..us turning to ease our own selves because I did bear the reproach of my hard headed youth


Jeremiah 31:17-18 King James Version (KJV) I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.
Surely "after that" I was turned, I repented; and " I was instructed", I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#230
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#230
Judges1318 said:
No, I asked for God's forgiveness, then I was changed.
Really. I was there.
It was that dramatic.
It really was like a new birth.
And it happened after I asked to be forgiven.
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I believe that you are confusing conversion (turning around) from the new birth. Being born again comes very suttle, even as a gentle breeze, that you don't know where it comes from, or where it goes, John 3:8. Luke 22:32, But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not; and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. After you have been born again, and feel the burden of guilt, upon hearing the gospel preached, you turn your life around, (are converted), and try to follow God's commandments. This, also, is when many join themselves to a church.
 
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garee

Banned
#231
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#231
ForestGreenCook said:
I believe that you are confusing conversion (turning around) from the new birth. Being born again comes very suttle, even as a gentle breeze, that you don't know where it comes from, or where it goes, John 3:8. Luke 22:32, But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not; and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. After you have been born again, and feel the burden of guilt, upon hearing the gospel preached, you turn your life around, (are converted), and try to follow God's commandments. This, also, is when many join themselves to a church.
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I would agree it the small voice saying marvel not . Same small voice that drew Elijah out of the cave . "What you doing in a cave get out and back to work" .

Studying the usage of caves make a interesting study .

1 Kings 19:9-13 King James Version (KJV) And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah? And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away. And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
 
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