Can One’s Salvation Be Given Up?

[FlyingDove]

Immd

I’m disagreeing with the premise of dispensationalism as it stands. Yes, Jesus ministered to Jews. I don’t think anyone denies that here. My issue is the concept of two different forms of salvation; one for the Jews and one for Gentiles.

And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
2 Corinthians 5:15-16

FAITH is & as always been the ONE & only form/path to salvation.

Abraham had FAITH that God, in the future would provide an atonement

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
(NOTE: Jehovahjireh means = The Lord Will Provide. Ok, PROVIDE what? A SACRIFICE! The promised seed/Christ is = The SACRIFICE/Sins Atonement!)

Under Mosaic law the Jews had a sin sacrificial system. The sacrifices in this system could only cover sin & only for 1 yr. In addition God had a promise them a coming Messiah/savior/ruler. The Jews only had to identify & have FAITH that Jesus was the promised Messiah, most didn't.

The prophets had proclaimed a Kingdom in which Israel would be the head & not the tail (Deut 28:13)

God would set them above the nations of the earth (Deut 28:1). Messiah would rule from Jerusalem over the entire earth (Zec 14:9)

Gentiles had no promises & no hope:

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

After His sin atoning payment & resurrection. The Risen Christ opens the salvation door to the gentiles. Paul's FAITH message is believe in Jesus sin atoning death, burial & resurrection.

 

[Aerials1978]

Yep so you do accept that there were different gospels given to different people at different time.

So why would the idea that the Jews in the 4 gospels had to put their faith that Jesus is their promised messiah and be Baptised, to be saved, be objectionable to you?

When we say Gospel, how are you defining that? When He spoke to the Israelites, he assured them that Kingdom of God had come. This was due to the prophecy concerning the Messiah through the line of David. To the Gentiles the Paul preached about the one true God and His gift of salvation. I get all of that. Where I take issue with the other poster of how he was applying that. He essentially said everything Jesus said was not for us, but only for the Jews. At that time maybe that was true, but now obviously all Christians(Well some do) adhere to Christ and His teachings.

 

[Aerials1978]

FAITH is & as always been the ONE & only form/path to salvation.

Abraham had FAITH that God, in the future would provide an atonement

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
(NOTE: Jehovahjireh means = The Lord Will Provide. Ok, PROVIDE what? A SACRIFICE! The promised seed/Christ is = The SACRIFICE/Sins Atonement!)

Under Mosaic law the Jews had a sin sacrificial system. The sacrifices in this system could only cover sin & only for 1 yr. In addition God had a promise them a coming Messiah/savior/ruler. The Jews only had to identify & have FAITH that Jesus was the promised Messiah, most didn't.

The prophets had proclaimed a Kingdom in which Israel would be the head & not the tail (Deut 28:13)

God would set them above the nations of the earth (Deut 28:1). Messiah would rule from Jerusalem over the entire earth (Zec 14:9)

Gentiles had no promises & no hope:

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

After His sin atoning payment & resurrection. The Risen Christ opens the salvation door to the gentiles. Paul's FAITH message is believe in Jesus sin atoning death, burial & resurrection.

Don’t take this the wrong way, but this is what happens when someone jumps into the middle of a discourse. My posts were to a specific person. I’m not denying how the Gospel was given to the Gentiles.

 

[Guojing]

When we say Gospel, how are you defining that? When He spoke to the Israelites, he assured them that Kingdom of God had come. This was due to the prophecy concerning the Messiah through the line of David. To the Gentiles the Paul preached about the one true God and His gift of salvation. I get all of that. Where I take issue with the other poster of how he was applying that. He essentially said everything Jesus said was not for us, but only for the Jews. At that time maybe that was true, but now obviously all Christians(Well some do) adhere to Christ and His teachings.

He is saying that for us now, we are saved by putting our faith in Christ death burial and resurrection for our salvation.

We don’t put our faith on what the Jews did put on, during the 4 gospels

 

[Aerials1978]

He is saying that for us now, we are saved by putting our faith in Christ death burial and resurrection for our salvation.

We don’t put our faith on what the Jews did put on, during the 4 gospels

If we don’t put faith in Jesus words, how can one put their faith in Him? That makes no sense. When Jesus said “If you believe in me you believe the one that sent me” is not applicable? If you don’t know who He was or what He spoke of how could anyone accept Him? By that logic should we not part take in what is referred to a communion or anything said or did.

 

[Guojing]

If we don’t put faith in Jesus words, how can one put their faith in Him? That makes no sense. When Jesus said “If you believe in me you believe the one that sent me” is not applicable? If you don’t know who He was or what He spoke of how could anyone accept Him? By that logic should we not part take in what is referred to a communion or anything said or did.

I understand that might sound heretical to you if you are learning it for the first time, but everything is scriptural

During the period of the 4 Gospels, Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24), and forbid the 12 to preach the gospel of the Kingdom to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5)

But, after Stephen was stoned, he saved Paul specifically to reach to us Gentiles. (Romans 11:13). The words Paul speak to us ARE the words of the ascended Christ for all of us former gentiles.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Crazy how fast a communication can derail. Especially in theology when multiple interpretations are trying to compete and at the same time presuppositions are thrown into high gear as the train moves faster to derailment. We can see the end result but by that time it is too late to slow it down lol.

 

[wattie]

I am not asking this question from a theological perspective, but instead from a matter of fact. I tend to lean towards yes, one can “Give up” their salvation.

Scripture states that salvation cannot be take from a believer, but there are passages that indicate that a person can essentially forgo this free gift of God. I have listed verses below that I believe can verify this concept:

Matthew 5:13
Matthew 3:10
Mark 4:1-20
Revaluation 3:14-19

If you agree or disagree, please feel to explain why.

I disagree because our spirit is in dwelt by the Holy Spirit when we are saved. So if we say we can leave Him... that is leaving something inside us.

Like saying you can be unborn. Or no longer be biologically connected to your family.

Of course we can grieve the Holy Spirit. And we will be convicted but to leave God? We dont have that power.

 

[Aerials1978]

I understand that might sound heretical to you if you are learning it for the first time, but everything is scriptural

During the period of the 4 Gospels, Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24), and forbid the 12 to preach the gospel of the Kingdom to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5)

But, after Stephen was stoned, he saved Paul specifically to reach to us Gentiles. (Romans 11:13). The words Paul speak to us ARE the words of the ascended Christ for all of us former gentiles.

I get the concept, but the issue I take is how it is being delivered. Paul’s ministry to the Gentiles was predicated on Christ’s ministry to the Jews. It’s like Jesus painted a picture and Paul colored it in.

So my question would be for us Believers would be are we to follow the teachings of Jesus? That would include loving one another, taking care of the poor and down trodden, etc . Of course we should. Why would any of that be nullified simply because we are not Jewish?

I would ask again if we should forgo communion if that was only for His Jewish Disciples? Should also forgo baptism? I’m using these as examples.

 

[Aerials1978]

I disagree because our spirit is in dwelt by the Holy Spirit when we are saved. So if we say we can leave Him... that is leaving something inside us.

Like saying you can be unborn. Or no longer be biologically connected to your family.

Of course we can grieve the Holy Spirit. And we will be convicted but to leave God? We dont have that power.

If God gives us free will to accept salvation, don’t we also have the free will to reject that salvation after receiving it? Again I would refer to the verses I provide make my point.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I understand that might sound heretical to you if you are learning it for the first time, but everything is scriptural

During the period of the 4 Gospels, Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24), and forbid the 12 to preach the gospel of the Kingdom to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5)

But, after Stephen was stoned, he saved Paul specifically to reach to us Gentiles. (Romans 11:13). The words Paul speak to us ARE the words of the ascended Christ for all of us former gentiles.

2 Timothy 3:16 New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Yep so you do accept that there were different gospels given to different people at different time.

So why would the idea that the Jews in the 4 gospels had to put their faith that Jesus is their promised messiah and be Baptised, to be saved, be objectionable to you?

Galatians 1:6-7 New King James Version (NKJV)
Only One Gospel
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

The good news or Gospel has played out from Genesis 1 to the resurrection and is still in motion as revelations is revealed in time. Mankind in 2020 is fortunate to have the full message the full good news recorded in the Bible. Our faith is in the finished work of Christ where as the people before Christ had faith in historical revealing of God's promise for a coming Messiah.

1 message that never changed. Our need for a Saviour. God may have done things differently at different times in history but the need for a Saviour never changed and nor did God's will to bring about His promises to completion.

 

[Aerials1978]

View attachment 210623

View attachment 210624
Crazy how fast a communication can derail. Especially in theology when multiple interpretations are trying to compete and at the same time presuppositions are thrown into high gear as the train moves faster to derailment. We can see the end result but by that time it is too late to slow it down lol.

I totally agree. I mean the Bible has been the most studied and scrutinized book for centuries. Modern Scholars to this day still debate its merits and we are trying to squeeze all of that into a few short posts.

 

[Aerials1978]

View attachment 210623

View attachment 210624
Crazy how fast a communication can derail. Especially in theology when multiple interpretations are trying to compete and at the same time presuppositions are thrown into high gear as the train moves faster to derailment. We can see the end result but by that time it is too late to slow it down lol.

I also enjoy these discussions because I learn from them. I’ve had discussions with Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, and from all of those I have learned where they are coming from and researched their claims so I can give the proper response. Being informed is essential when having a debate of a simple conversation. Sometimes I found out that I am wrong in certain things.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I also enjoy these discussions because I learn from them. I’ve had discussions with Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, and from all of those I have learned where they are coming from and researched their claims so I can give the proper response. Being informed is essential when having a debate of a simple conversation. Sometimes I found out that I am wrong in certain things.

Oh definitely. It is a great skill to learn how to control and guide a conversation or else learning can be hard as one side shuts down from explaining to defensive. And out of defensiveness it is hard to be honest with ourselves and admit when we dont know, or admit if we are wrong. Many will repeat the same thing over and over as if it will somehow stir up new facts ( like we see in American Congress this last week) if the conversation isnt salvaged then defensiveness can quickly become offensive and at that point it is best to just walk away.

Once listening has ceased then it as if we are talking to a wall.

 

[Guojing]

I get the concept, but the issue I take is how it is being delivered. Paul’s ministry to the Gentiles was predicated on Christ’s ministry to the Jews. It’s like Jesus painted a picture and Paul colored it in.

So my question would be for us Believers would be are we to follow the teachings of Jesus? That would include loving one another, taking care of the poor and down trodden, etc . Of course we should. Why would any of that be nullified simply because we are not Jewish?

I would ask again if we should forgo communion if that was only for His Jewish Disciples? Should also forgo baptism? I’m using these as examples.

Of course all of us learn from Jesus in the 4 Gospels, many of the stuff he teaches, especially with regards to money and mammon is very relevant for us.

But for issues on salvation, it is important to follow what Jesus instructed Paul to teach us, since there are many who read what Jesus said to the Jews regarding how to get saved, and take them as instructions for us too, especially the Sermon on the Mount.

If you are worried about holy communion, you will be glad to know that Jesus also told Paul to remind us the importance of taking it seriously in 1 Cor 11.

As for water baptism, you can go ahead and do it if you want to declare publicly to your loved ones your faith, but while it was a requirement for salvation under the gospel of the kingdom, its no longer a requirement under the gospel of grace.

 

[Guojing]

2 Timothy 3:16 New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,



Galatians 1:6-7 New King James Version (NKJV)
Only One Gospel
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

The good news or Gospel has played out from Genesis 1 to the resurrection and is still in motion as revelations is revealed in time. Mankind in 2020 is fortunate to have the full message the full good news recorded in the Bible. Our faith is in the finished work of Christ where as the people before Christ had faith in historical revealing of God's promise for a coming Messiah.

1 message that never changed. Our need for a Saviour. God may have done things differently at different times in history but the need for a Saviour never changed and nor did God's will to bring about His promises to completion.

Yes, amen, there is only ONE gospel for NOW, which is the one given to Paul. No one is denying that here.

And yes, all scripture is written FOR our learning, just like you learn from Haggai and Malachi as well, as all of us do.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Yes, amen, there is only ONE gospel for NOW, which is the one given to Paul. No one is denying that here.

And yes, all scripture is written FOR our learning, just like you learn from Haggai and Malachi as well, as all of us do.

I can see what you're trying to say. But most Christians do not divide the New Testament eye witness accounts from the letters of Paul. Most of Jesus's words was repeated by Paul and the Apostles. Including early church fathers.

I think this idea is called straining out a knat but ignoring the camel. I'm just not seeing the weight of the argument.

 

[Guojing]

I can see what you're trying to say. But most Christians do not divide the New Testament eye witness accounts from the letters of Paul. Most of Jesus's words was repeated by Paul and the Apostles. Including early church fathers.

I think this idea is called straining out a knat but ignoring the camel. I'm just not seeing the weight of the argument.

Part of the reason for that is because many churches preach almost exclusively from the 4 gospels. When Paul is used, they often use it in the context of the 4 Gospels, rather than recognizing that Paul received brand new revelations for us, non Jews (Galatians 1:11-12).

But make no mistake about it, Jesus during the 4 gospels knew about these revelations. He did not preach those then precisely because he was there to fulfill the Law of Moses.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Part of the reason for that is because many churches preach almost exclusively from the 4 gospels. When Paul is used, they often use it in the context of the 4 Gospels, rather than recognizing that Paul received brand new revelations for us, non Jews (Galatians 1:11-12).

But make no mistake about it, Jesus during the 4 gospels knew about these revelations. He did not preach those then precisely because he was there to fulfill the Law of Moses.

Many churches as in who? All the churches I been to preach out of the whole Bible.

 

[Judges1318]

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Here's the passage:

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister b c will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ d is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. - Matthew 7:21-24

The issue being addressed here is hatred and anger and strife in disunity, not calling out someone's thinking or behavior as being foolish. God does not want you to approach him in worship when you have hatred and anger in you towards others. Obedience is better than sacrifice. That applies as much today as it did at any time in history.