Apostasy 101

[Judges1318]

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

I guess Paul forgot that when he told them to not fall away from God and to not be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.
Obviously, Hebrews 10:39 doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

[Noose]

An intellectual belief is a theory.

Like the theory of evolution.

Maybe when you were a child you believed in this theory. But when you grew up you saw that the evidence pointed away from evolution and towards creation.

So this intellectual belief you had was changed. You no longer believed or trusted in evolution but in creation.


This is the ONLY kind of belief that can change.


TRUE Salvation goes from this intellectual stage, or theory stage, to the FACTUAL stage. It is no longer a theory about something that may happen at some future time. It is a FACT that HAS HAPPENED.

A person can no longer change their mind about a FACT that has ALREADY Happened.

Once you have seen something you have seen it and you can't un-see. Once you have heard something you have heard it and you can't un-hear.

Its like gravity. You see it every day. It is a fact. You can't stop believing in gravity because you see evidence for it every day. Its this same exact way with Salvation.

1. Faith and belief is about unseen things, not seen

Heb 11:3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

It is not by facts that we understand creation.

Rom 8:24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

2. There's no such thing as intellectual belief.
When i was young, i believed in evolution but disbelieved creation. When i grew up, i had a change of mind and now i believe creation and disbelieve evolution. I can still change my mind and believe evolution if i'm convinced.

3. We see from the scriptures people being warned against going against what they have already believed:

1 Cor 15:1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

They had already received and believed the gospel but they are being warned not to let go otherwise the initial belief would be in vain.

 

[Grandpa]

The problem with your interpretation is it defies the Grammar. So either you are right or the writer through the Holy Spirit had bad grammar and could not articulate in a precise manner.

The one drawing back is in the subjunctive mood which is the mood of possibility. It is also in the third person singular. Which according to the rules of grammar would connect the one drawing back to the just one (first person singular) who lives by faith just mentioned.

The just (one) shall live by faith: but if he (WHO? The just one living by faith) draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Sorry but I have to go. You have a nice day Grandpa

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

This is OBVIOUSLY NOT talking about the just who live by faith. This is a whole different group.

You have the just who live by faith and you have a different group, those who draw back.



The just who live by faith don't draw back. They are the ones that believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Of them that believe should be your clue.



Hebrews 10:38 speaks of the just living by FAITH. Then Hebrews 10:39 says we are not of them that draw back but of them that BELIEVE. I.E. Live by Faith.


2 different groups. Those that draw back and those that don't draw back.

 

[Grandpa]

I guess Paul forgot that when he told them to not fall away from God and to not be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.
Obviously, Hebrews 10:39 doesn't mean what you think it means.

When talking to those with an intellectual belief they could go either way.

But the Truly Saved are not of those who draw back but who believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[Chris1975]

I thought you were, but I wanted to make sure.


I agree, Galatians is where the conflict lies.

And I knew the two of you were, but I remained silent

 

[Grandpa]

1. Faith and belief is about unseen things, not seen

Heb 11:3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

It is not by facts that we understand creation.

Rom 8:24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

2. There's no such thing as intellectual belief.
When i was young, i believed in evolution but disbelieved creation. When i grew up, i had a change of mind and now i believe creation and disbelieve evolution. I can still change my mind and believe evolution if i'm convinced.

3. We see from the scriptures people being warned against going against what they have already believed:

1 Cor 15:1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

They had already received and believed the gospel but they are being warned not to let go otherwise the initial belief would be in vain.

Yes. They are warned against going against their intellectual belief. Their Theory of possible Salvation one day.

They must CONTINUE in the GOSPEL if they have any hope of making this intellectual belief into FACT.


Romans 8:35-39
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing can separate us from the Love of God.

No one can pluck us from Gods Hand.


These are FACTS.


But if you only know them as intellectual theories then it IS possible for you to change your theory.


If you know these FACTS and have been Saved and know the Goodness of God then you can't just walk away. You have become a believer who does not draw back but believes to the saving of the soul.

 

[Judges1318]

The ones who only have a hypothesis of what Christianity might be, those are the ones that he has "perhaps" labored over in vain.

No, he's talking about fearing he has wasted his efforts on saved people:

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? - Galatians 3:1-3

10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. - Galatians 4:10-11

 

[Judges1318]

But the Truly Saved are not of those who draw back but who believe to the saving of the soul.

3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? - Galatians 3:3

10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. - Galatians 4:10-11

 

[Noose]

Yes. They are warned against going against their intellectual belief. Their Theory of possible Salvation one day.

They must CONTINUE in the GOSPEL if they have any hope of making this intellectual belief into FACT.


Romans 8:35-39
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing can separate us from the Love of God.

No one can pluck us from Gods Hand.


These are FACTS.


But if you only know them as intellectual theories then it IS possible for you to change your theory.


If you know these FACTS and have been Saved and know the Goodness of God then you can't just walk away. You have become a believer who does not draw back but believes to the saving of the soul.

Again no such thing as intellectual theories here:

1 Cor 15:1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

1. The gospel was already preached to them
2. They had already believed in the gospel
3. They'll only be saved if they hold on to the belief they already have
4. If they let go of it, they will not be saved

What i don't see is the this you are calling intellectual belief here. There's only one belief but two different outcomes depending on whether they hold on to the belief or let go of it.

 

[Grandpa]

No, he's talking about fearing he has wasted his efforts on saved people:

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? - Galatians 3:1-3

10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. - Galatians 4:10-11

No he's not. Imagine how the Lord feels about people who are instrumental in laboring over saved people.

A Christian cannot waste their efforts on a saved person. How much of your efforts are worth the Salvation of a soul?


Paul is worried that he has wasted his efforts on these people who have an intellectual theory of what Christianity is.

People who are foolish and try to add their works to the Salvation, Perfection and Righteousness of God.

 

[Judges1318]

Paul is worried that he has wasted his efforts on these people who have an intellectual theory of what Christianity is.

The Galatians Paul is addressing possessed and experienced the Spirit through their believing, but had gone back to the law, and now Paul is afraid his efforts were wasted on them. That doesn't fit your assertion that he is addressing only those who had intellectual faith.

3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? - Galatians 3:3

10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. - Galatians 4:10-11

 

[Judges1318]

People who are foolish and try to add their works to the Salvation, Perfection and Righteousness of God.

And as we plainly see by the example of the Galatians, even genuinely saved people can be foolish that way. And the fear of having wasted effort on them is very real. Because they may or may not come back to their senses. But you would not have to have that fear if saved people who fall away always and without exception come back to Christ.

 

[IFOLLOWHIM]

1 Corinthians chapter 3 speaks to the whole matter of who is it we follow.
Do we follow Jesus; if so then we walk in obedience to His covenant!
If we follow man's doctrine then it is said they shall BOTH FALL in the ditch for they are blind leaders.Mt.15:14
If we build upon any foundation ( doctrines,theologies,denominations,people) other than Jesus,we are shifting and what we think we are building FALLS flat! Luke 6:48/49, Ep.2:20


1 Tim.6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come,THAT THEY MAY LAY HOLD ON ETERNAL LIFE. 2 Tim.2:19

 

[Kolistus]

Jeremiah 23

14 Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem:
They commit adultery and walk in lies;
They also strengthen the hands of evildoers,
So that no one turns back from his wickedness.
All of them are like Sodom to Me,
And her inhabitants like Gomorrah.

15 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets:

‘Behold, I will feed them with wormwood,
And make them drink the water of gall;
For from the prophets of Jerusalem
Profaneness has gone out into all the land.’ ”

16 Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you.
They make you worthless;
They speak a vision of their own heart,
Not from the mouth of the Lord.
17 They continually say to those who despise Me,
‘The Lord has said, “You shall have peace” ’;
And to everyone who walks according to the dictates of his own heart, they say,
‘No evil shall come upon you.’ ”

18 For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord,
And has perceived and heard His word?
Who has marked His word and heard it?
19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord has gone forth in fury—
A violent whirlwind!
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the Lord will not turn back
Until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart.
In the latter days you will understand it perfectly.

21 “I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran.
I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in My counsel,
And had caused My people to hear My words,
Then they would have turned them from their evil way
And from the evil of their doings.

23 “Am I a God near at hand,” says the Lord,
“And not a God afar off?
24 Can anyone hide himself in secret places,
So I shall not see him?” says the Lord;
“Do I not fill heaven and earth?” says the Lord.

I can think of a popular doctrine today that fits right in with this.

 

[Chris1975]

I can think of a popular doctrine today that fits right in with this.

Yup 👍 that's why I posted this piece.

 

[Judges1318]

Yup 👍 that's why I posted this piece.

The church would do well to learn from Israel. They are examples for us:

6Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.” a 8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9We should not test Christ, b as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! - 1 Corinthians 10:6-12

 

[Chris1975]

The church would do well to learn from Israel. They are examples for us:

6Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.” a 8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9We should not test Christ, b as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! - 1 Corinthians 10:6-12

Great piece. A suitable passage to warn those who somehow think that the new covenant is simply freedom to do what you wish without repercussion. Paul is directing these people back to the old covenant mis-behaviours as an example of the caution that needs to be maintained.

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

This is OBVIOUSLY NOT talking about the just who live by faith. This is a whole different group.

You have the just who live by faith and you have a different group, those who draw back.

The just who live by faith don't draw back. They are the ones that believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Of them that believe should be your clue.

Hebrews 10:38 speaks of the just living by FAITH. Then Hebrews 10:39 says we are not of them that draw back but of them that BELIEVE. I.E. Live by Faith.

2 different groups. Those that draw back and those that don't draw back.

When talking to those with an intellectual belief they could go either way.

But the Truly Saved are not of those who draw back but who believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[Chris1975]

Worth a bump as I see many have not learned yet.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

I guess we cannot do works that make us justified but at the same time, we are justified through faith in Jesus and with the spirit and it shows itself by our works.