Not By Works

[Whispered]

That's why we are exhorted to stay in Christ.
Only believers are eternally secure in Christ.
Go back to unbelief and you are no longer secure in Christ.
All the promises are for people who believe, and for them only. Not for those who stop believing.


Unbelief is what you can 'do' to lose your salvation.


Yes, salvation is eternal. Unlike the salvation that the old covenant provided. It ended when you sinned again, or when the system of priest and sacrifice failed you. Your continued possession of the salvation that will never end is conditioned on your continued trust in Christ. It is through faith that we are shielded by God's power for salvation when Christ returns.

Where does it say salvation is irrevocable for the individual saved person?

Jesus shows us in Matthew 18:23-35 under what conditions the Father will take back a gift.

None of that is true of course.
You are free to believe you , you alone, as you speak for yourself there, are able to lose your Salvation.
However, those who are in Christ will never lose their Salvation. For that to happen, if that were possible, Jesus would need be crucified all over again. Why? Because contrary to what actual scripture says about His death insuring eternal life, for that one who believes they can lose their Salvation the moment they stop believing, it would mean Jesus dying on the cross was of no avail to save those dead in their sins, if those who were redeemed and then stopped believing are able to undo in that one choice, all that was done for and to them by God and due to Christ's death.

And this would mean then that Jesus death did not do as was prophesied and for all eternity. Which would mean, He did not secure eternal life, and Salvation, He conditionally allotted Salvation contingent on faith. Which isn't in scripture.

And this would also mean that if the one who loses faith is now damned, that not only did their mortal choice to stop believing usurp God's authority over them, as it was His Spirit that made that faithful one a new creation. It would also mean that should that backslider decide to return to Christ, it is the same as saying , Jesus would have to be crucified all over again so as to take away the newly accrued sins of that backslider who has decided now to return to the flock. And of course, all their former sins would return to them, after they were made unregenerated, and were returned to the state of death, and being dead in their sins, again.
And that returned backslider would be conditionally saved contingent on keeping faith in Christ....this time.

If that is what you believe about yourself, so be it. However, as I said before, your idea of salvation need be rebuked so that those who may be seeking the truth of God in Christ are not led to believe it . Because it is not actually true according to the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Whispered]

Bill......he is a walking talking contradiction............plain as day!

Just a thought as pertains to that statement. Perhaps it is so, and I haven't compared all PS's posts so as to arrive at that conclusion myself, however, if it is true, perhaps the reason is that two different people are using one account?
One doesn't know where the other left off or what they said in defense of their position on the Gospel. And that could be why the assumed contradictions.

I arrive at that suggestion having been a member of a forum years ago and my sister was their moderator. One of many. They found that a member was doing precisely that. And this is why their posts were not consistent with the line of thought that particular member was setting forth in posts.

 

[dcontroversal]

Just a thought as pertains to that statement. Perhaps it is so, and I haven't compared all PS's posts so as to arrive at that conclusion myself, however, if it is true, perhaps the reason is that two different people are using one account?
One doesn't know where the other left off or what they said in defense of their position on the Gospel. And that could be why the assumed contradictions.

I arrive at that suggestion having been a member of a forum years ago and my sister was their moderator. One of many. They found that a member was doing precisely that. And this is why their posts were not consistent with the line of thought that particular member was setting forth in posts.

Let me be clear......every view he posts contradicts scripture.....the only truth is when he direct quotes a verse, but then contradicts it by his self maintained, losable salvation.....he absolutely devalues Jesus, the word of God, the work of Christ on out behalf, the blood of Christ and the promises of Christ....as do ALL that peddle a losable salvation that must be maintained by man......

 

[EleventhHour]

Just a thought as pertains to that statement. Perhaps it is so, and I haven't compared all PS's posts so as to arrive at that conclusion myself, however, if it is true, perhaps the reason is that two different people are using one account?
One doesn't know where the other left off or what they said in defense of their position on the Gospel. And that could be why the assumed contradictions.

I arrive at that suggestion having been a member of a forum years ago and my sister was their moderator. One of many. They found that a member was doing precisely that. And this is why their posts were not consistent with the line of thought that particular member was setting forth in posts.

Not likely... people who are not in line with scriptural truth end up with contradiction.

 

[Judges1318]

None of that is true of course.

I realize that you are generalizing.

You are free to believe you , you alone, as you speak for yourself there, are able to lose your Salvation.

I believe that God did not take away my choice to trust, or not trust in Christ.

However, those who are in Christ will never lose their Salvation.

That's what I said.
Only those who believe will never lose their salvation.
Those who stop believing will lose their salvation.

for that one who believes they can lose their Salvation the moment they stop believing, it would mean Jesus dying on the cross was of no avail to save those dead in their sins, if those who were redeemed and then stopped believing are able to undo in that one choice, all that was done for and to them by God and due to Christ's death.

Jesus' blood was most certainly applied to them when they believed in it.
His blood stopped being applied to them when they stopped believing in it.

And this would mean then that Jesus death did not do as was prophesied and for all eternity.

What Jesus said he would do for all eternity is for believers, not ex-believers. He keeps his word. In fact, that is the very reason we should keep trusting in Him--He is faithful. He will not let you down. So keep believing in Him.

23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. - Hebrews 10:23

Which would mean, He did not secure eternal life, and Salvation

He did secure it.
...for those who believe, not for those who don't believe, or who have stopped believing.

This is going to be tough for you to grasp because you can only think of eternal life as meaning 'you can never lose it' instead of what the Bible says it is, 'life that never peters out on you' like it did in the old system.

He conditionally allotted Salvation contingent on faith. Which isn't in scripture.

Show me in the Bible where salvation is not conditioned on believing.
Here's where it says it is:

2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. - 1 Corinthians 15:2

 

[CherieR]

@dcontroversal, I have a couple of questions that I have been thinking about..

What is the difference between that of saving faith and that which does not last or goes along with the group as to fit in with someone's peers? Can this difference be easily seen in one's own heart? In others?

There was one thing I noticed when watching a film based on John Bunyan's book the Pilgrims Progress. One character who joined the traveler was excited at first about this Celestial City but as soon as he fell into some trouble on the way, he turned back.

 

[Judges1318]

One character who joined the traveler was excited at first about this Celestial City but as soon as he fell into some trouble on the way, he turned back.

He is the 2nd type of soil in the Parable of the Sower.
Since the word was not very deeply rooted in his heart (because of the condition of his heart) he had no basis upon which to assert some kind of confidence that his believing made it so he can not lose his salvation. Only in the 4th type of soil believer do we see the basis upon which a confident assertion of never falling away could be made. Why? Because the word is firmly rooted and producing fruit in perseverance in that kind of heart.

 

[CherieR]

He is the 2nd type of soil in the Parable of the Sower.
Since the word was not very deeply rooted in his heart (because of the condition of that heart) he had no basis upon which to assert some kind of confidence that his believing made it so he can not lose his salvation. Only in the 4th type of soil believer do we see the basis upon which a confident assertion of never falling away could be made. Why? Because the word is firmly rooted and producing fruit in perseverance in that kind of heart.

Couldn't the soil with the weeds also be a believer in Jesus?

 

[dcontroversal]

@dcontroversal, I have a couple of questions that I have been thinking about..

What is the difference between that of saving faith and that which does not last or goes along with the group as to fit in with someone's peers? Can this difference be easily seen in one's own heart? In others?

There was one thing I noticed when watching a film based on John Bunyan's book the Pilgrims Progress. One character who joined the traveler was excited at first about this Celestial City but as soon as he fell into some trouble on the way, he turned back.

Savin faith saves eternally and when one is born again spiritually they are a babe in Christ....if they are not fed a steady diet of truth they will not grow, remain spiritually stunted and be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.....the contradiction in James is found in the same problem the Jews have to this very day....a MERE belief in GOD, BUT no saving faith into JESUS......another truth.....there is one gospel that saves a man.....when that gospel is embellished it VOIDS the correct gospel and renders it void of power to save a man.....we see several on this thread that do that....a gospel that states salvation can be lost or that must be maintained by man and NOT GOD IS A GOSPEL VOID of saving power.....sometimes people are offended at the truth, yet still remain BORN ETERNALLY FROM ABOVE....a child by birth will ALWAYS be a child by birth....the 70 rejoiced in demons being subject to them in the name of Jesus....he told them to rejoice in the fsct their names were written in heaven....they got offended and walked no more with him...YET NOT ONE VERSE states they lost saving faith or salvation......these liars and deceivers that say it can be lost or forfeit or must be maintained by us....are exactly that....liars and deceivers.....the bible clearly teaches that JESUS MAINTAINS it, finishes it and co.pletes it in us!

 

[Whispered]

I realize that you are generalizing.


I believe that God did not take away my choice to trust, or not trust in Christ.


That's what I said.
Only those who believe will never lose their salvation.
Those who stop believing will lose their salvation.


Jesus' blood was most certainly applied to them when they believed in it.
His blood stopped being applied to them when they stopped believing in it.


What Jesus said he would do for all eternity is for believers, not ex-believers. He keeps his word. In fact, that is the very reason we should keep trusting in Him--He is faithful. He will not let you down. So keep believing in Him.

23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. - Hebrews 10:23


He did secure it.
...for those who believe, not for those who don't believe, or who have stopped believing.

This is going to be tough for you to grasp because you can only think of eternal life as meaning 'you can never lose it' instead of what the Bible says it is, 'life that never peters out on you' like it did in the old system.


Show me in the Bible where salvation is not conditioned on believing.
Here's where it says it is:

2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. - 1 Corinthians 15:2

You're right. False faith will always be something I will never grasp.
Thank you Lord.

And I'm not generalizing. I'm saying that your belief system is yours alone. And has not a thing to do with proper contextual understanding of God's words to the world.

You have rewritten God's word to fit your works salvation model. The true word will not reach you.

For everyone else it is very easy to refute false doctrine that seeks to lead you astray. Philippians chapter 1. The Book of John chapter 6.
God knew who would accept the free irrevocable gift of Salvation, forgiveness of our sins and sin nature, before the world was created. This doesn't mean He picked out people to save and conversely picked those He would damn. It means God foresaw all things from beginning to end. And in that way, He knew that after the fall when Salvation came through His new covenant, for whom His message would resonate and be accepted as truth. That is what it means when we're told Jesus died for the elect.
That doesn't mean the elect are God's pre-chosen saved one's. It means those who elect to follow God's word and come unto repentance are of course fore-known by the power that knows everything from beginning to end.
And when God knows who are the saved in Christ, that means when God gave Himself as that last sacrifice for the sins of the world, and so that those who believe and are then redeemed, are so for all time. Even if they fall away, God knows who will return to Him and that is why He said, no one will take us from His hand.
It is the contextual difference between the True Believer, Redeemed One's, and the nominal one's who are not reborn in the spirit, and are not indwelt with Holy Spirit God.
Those who think the Elect of God can lose their Salvation are mistaken in many ways. However, first and foremost they're mistaken in thinking the choice of an individual mortal an overcome the presence of God within them. Meaning, for your doctrine to be right, and it is not, a person who falls into backsliding would have to have the power and authority to evict God's Holy Spirit from within themselves. And then undo all that was done for and to them when they repented and became a new creation. That would make that individual mortal more powerful than all knowing omnipotent God.

And that belief ideology is the stuff of Luciferianism , not Christianity. Lucifer thought he was more fit to rule God's Heaven and creation than was God. Lucifer thought he could evict God from the throne and take His place.

Leave the church that's leading you to damnation. When you're breathing there is still time to find your way to the truth and the life.
When you think you return to your former damned state if you don't continually believe, you're not there yet.

May God light your path to the truth.

 

[Judges1318]

Couldn't the soil with the weeds also be a believer in Jesus?

Yes.
I've been one for 34 years now, lol.

I don't spend enough time with 4th type of soil to say I'm that.

 

[Judges1318]

You're right. False faith will always be something I will never grasp.

That's not what I said is going to be hard for you to grasp.

 

[Judges1318]

Even if they fall away, God knows who will return to Him and that is why He said, no one will take us from His hand.

So much for 1 John 2:19 then, I guess.

19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. - 1 John 2:19

Apparently leaving Christ does not mean you never really believed in the first place.
But it seemed so right before.

 

[Judges1318]

they're mistaken in thinking the choice of an individual mortal an overcome the presence of God within them. Meaning, for your doctrine to be right, and it is not, a person who falls into backsliding would have to have the power and authority to evict God's Holy Spirit from within themselves.

No, no.
God leaves the person. No one kicks Him out.

...they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. - Romans 11:20-22


24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. - 1 John 2:24

 

[Judges1318]

And then undo all that was done for and to them when they repented and became a new creation. That would make that individual mortal more powerful than all knowing omnipotent God.

God's does not take away your choice to love him or not when you get saved.
We're not robots.
As the Romans 11 scripture I posted shows; we're free to reject the kindness he has shown to us who have believed.

 

[Judges1318]

Lucifer thought he was more fit to rule God's Heaven and creation than was God. Lucifer thought he could evict God from the throne and take His place.

Well, since I'm not saying that is what happens I guess I'm good then.
God is the one who leaves the person.
The person does not kick him out.

 

[Judges1318]

When you think you return to your former damned state if you don't continually believe, you're not there yet.

May God light your path to the truth.

You call believing in Christ's blood a Luciferian doctrine, and I'm the one in need of the illumined path?
Really?

 

[dcontroversal]

Ralph.....your drivel is old....

So.....why won't you come clean like Discern did....many have asked you if you are Ralph.........Discern had integrity to come clean.....you on the other hand continue to peddle that which devalues Jesus, makes the word into a lie, makes Jesus, Paul, Peter and John into liars....

Folks....DO NOT BUY this anti-Gospel that Judges peddles....it is false, not of God and has no power to save a man!

 

[Whispered]

You call believing in Christ's blood a Luciferian doctrine, and I'm the one in need of the illumined path?
Really?

Please don't misrepresent what I wrote.

 

[Whispered]

Well, since I'm not saying that is what happens I guess I'm good then.
God is the one who leaves the person.
The person does not kick him out.

There plenty of verses that tell us the True Believer is forever sealed and indwelt with Gods Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit only indwells the true believer. Even if that person loses faith, God's creation within that person, they being regenerated, do not lose the Holy Spirit, though we can grieve the Holy Spirit.
The Bible tells us, the person who does not have the Holy Spirit is not saved. Those who have the Holy Spirit are. Someone can backslide, lose faith for a time, but they are still saved. And being they are still saved, they are still indwelt with Gods Holy Spirit and are begotten of God.