Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

[Dave-L]

Jesus word is perfect.

And miracle still happen

What you believe is when the perfect come No more gift.

And the word perfect can be number of thing.

Perfect in that verse mean heaven.

Yes Jesus is perfect and His word is, but perfect in that verse mean heaven.

But, scripture is perfect and gives the complete revelation. Tongues and prophecy only allowed people to know in part.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The Baptism enabled the profound miracles of the apostles. Anything like this in your experience? The original tongue speakers understood what they were saying. Have you a clue about what you are saying? https://www.dana.org/article/speaking-in-tongues-glossolalia-and-stress-reduction/

totally false narrative

apparently you are another who is not that familiar with what the NT teaches about the gifts of the Holy Spirit

you actually have no control or choice over what God does with His gifts

 

[7seasrekeyed]

But, scripture is perfect and gives the complete revelation. Tongues and prophecy only allowed people to know in part.

that is another false narrative

the blind leading the blind

 

[Dave-L]

stress reduction? sounds great.

"Other researchers have described instances of glossolalia among Inuit populations in the Arctic, in rituals of the Saami of Finland, and during certain possession states achieved in Haitian voodoo—although the extent to which it occurs outside of religious contexts remains unclear. "

this doesnt sound too good

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8088740

 

[Melach]

But, scripture is perfect and gives the complete revelation. Tongues and prophecy only allowed people to know in part.

if scripture is perfect why do people correct it all the time? this would be better translated as this. and this is not found in later manuscripts. clearly its not perfect. it doesnt even say anywhere in the bible that its perfect. and you quoting timothy is st.paul sending letter to timothy talking about scriptures timothy had already known meaning the old testament scriptures. new testament wasnt even compiled yet.

also we have so many gaps in our knowledge still even though the bible is complete.

 

[Dave-L]

if scripture is perfect why do people correct it all the time? this would be better translated as this. and this is not found in later manuscripts. clearly its not perfect. it doesnt even say anywhere in the bible that its perfect. and you quoting timothy is st.paul sending letter to timothy talking about scriptures timothy had already known meaning the old testament scriptures. new testament wasnt even compiled yet.

also we have so many gaps in our knowledge still even though the bible is complete.

Perfect = complete.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Perfect = complete.

so in your system, anything that is complete is perfect?

so when I post this, it will be complete and therefore I am perfect

right

FYI, that does not support you saying tongues or any other gift are no longer given by God through His Spirit

you can't have it both ways

and remember, you said the world is watching you, so get it together

 

[Melach]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8088740

dont know what that proves but its true pentecostals often are very mentally weak people usually. it draws in those kind of people their way of preaching and the carnival setup they have. emotionalism and fake plastic preachers acting on stage.

there is a meme about it, and i also think its true, what happens in a pentecostal person when they go to church? they are compeltely different person, anyone who knows them real life knows im saying the truth. they are like night and day in church out of church. its like they put on their act for church and then its back to normal until next show time. can someone please put an end to this carnival travesty? its making a joke of christianity really.

i know way over a hundred pentecostals of them only two are stable people lolz. other people have God telling them what cheese to buy from the store. really. can you believe it. but i want to say this: the people i know are in my generation so in their 20s and 30s, and everyone in my generation is already crazy including me. the people i know who are older are usually more temperate and stable. the old time pentecostals were really obedient the new time is trash really. same with methodist they used to be really good now that church is garbage

 

[Dave-L]

dont know what that proves but its true pentecostals often are very mentally weak people usually. it draws in those kind of people their way of preaching and the carnival setup they have. emotionalism and fake plastic preachers acting on stage.

there is a meme about it, and i also think its true, what happens in a pentecostal person when they go to church? they are compeltely different person, anyone who knows them real life knows im saying the truth. they are like night and day in church out of church. its like they put on their act for church and then its back to normal until next show time. can someone please put an end to this carnival travesty? its making a joke of christianity really.

i know way over a hundred pentecostals of them only two are stable people lolz. other people have God telling them what cheese to buy from the store. really. can you believe it. but i want to say this: the people i know are in my generation so in their 20s and 30s, and everyone in my generation is already crazy including me. the people i know who are older are usually more temperate and stable. the old time pentecostals were really obedient the new time is trash really. same with methodist they used to be really good now that church is garbage

I saw a THD (Accredited) go crazy over the word of faith teaching and kill over 100 people by throwing away medicine and such. So I think it's a combination of both.

 

[Melach]

I saw a THD (Accredited) go crazy over the word of faith teaching

i saw someone say i miss the tyranny of the roman catholic church. really. all these crazy carnival movements wouldnt exist if we had strong pope ruling with an iron fist over people. inquisition city population many and more coming.

true now we cant stop any of these guys from making a joke of christianity. this current pope obviously is an ecumenical soft guy he is a joke. all the people crying about calvin's rule in geneva and defending michael servetus do they know that servetus wasnt even trinitarian and it was law of the land in those days? heresy was crime then.

looks like its impossible to get hardline people today? even false christianity like mormons and roman catholics are going soft? what happened im really wanna look into history to see at what time did this happen. maybe in the secularization of europe and america this just slowly started to come in bit by bit. now you meet a christian and the first thing they tell you is God told me a dream rapture is happening soon well isnt that great He took time to tell you and everyone else that with different details and people left behind. it really is a frustration to deal with. i wish i got a dollar for each fake rapture prediction. there is another one coming in 2020.

 

[EternalFire]

Only the Apostles received the baptism. Did the 3000 at pentecost go around raising the dead? Or healing the paralysed? Or performing ANY of the miracles the apostles did? Where does it say others spoke in tongues? It only mentions the apostles giving the gifts to a few through their hands who spoke in tongues. You need to study for yourself and take a long look at this.

Consider James 5:13-15 (ESV).
Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

 

[Dave-L]

Consider James 5:13-15 (ESV).
Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

The prayer of faith is for all Christians. The Apostle's signs and wonders expired with the Apostles.

 

[EternalFire]

The prayer of faith is for all Christians. The Apostle's signs and wonders expired with the Apostles.

Am I stating correctly, then, that you do believe healing is still valid today?

 

[Chris1975]

How many dead have you raised...personally? Do you think this might be what we all do spiritually?

What did the verse I posted say about raising the dead?

Here I will post it again: Mark 16v17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

To which you reply how many have I raised from the dead? That is disingenuous. Out of the 5 above, I know of 3 in which God has used me in the past for His purposes.

I ask you again, where in that scripture that I posted did it say I will raise the dead?

 

[Dave-L]

What did the verse I posted say about raising the dead?

Here I will post it again: Mark 16v17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

To which you reply how many have I raised from the dead? That is disingenuous. Out of the 5 above, I know of 3 in which God has used me in the past for His purposes.

I ask you again, where in that scripture that I posted did it say I will raise the dead?

Are you a Pentecostal snake handler?

 

[Chris1975]

Are you a Pentecostal snake handler?

No. Have no interest in that. And why tempt God? And these "shows" are merely that - shows.

Now why did you refer to raising the dead?

 

[EternalFire]

Am I stating correctly, then, that you do believe healing is still valid today?

Excellent. So we agree that healing is still for today. Your objection concerns signs and wonders, correct?

 

[garee]

This has generated lots of interest so I am posting my understanding of the issue. (I used to be Pentecostal).

Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

Understanding the Baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts is difficult. But I found the keys are the Ethiopian Eunuch Acts 8:27 and the Samarians Acts 8:5. In essence, all had the Holy Spirit but only the Samarians had the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

These received the gift of the Holy Spirit according to Peter in Acts 2:38 just as we do today. But the Samarians also received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through the apostle’s hands which the Eunuch did not.

On Pentecost God baptized the 12 Apostles with the Holy Spirit who also spoke in tongues. According to Acts 2:38 the eunuch and the Samarians had the gift of the Holy Spirit through Philip’s preaching. But Philip could not provide the baptism of the Holy Spirit for either. Acts reveals that beyond the two outpourings, only the Apostles through the laying on of their hands could baptize people in the Holy Spirit. It was the proof of apostleship Hebrews 2:4.

When the Apostles visited the Samarian converts, they laid their hands on them baptizing them in the Holy Spirit. But this was not the case with the Eunuch. It says he went on his way rejoicing after Philip baptized him in water.

So the Samarians and the Eunuch received the gift of the Holy Spirit through Philip’s preaching. But only the Samarians received the baptism with the Holy Spirit through the Apostles’ hands.

About 7 years later, God poured out the Holy Spirit on the gentiles at Cornelius’ house which resulted in their speaking in tongues just as the Apostles did at Pentecost.

Scripture doesn’t mention the 3000 converts on the day of Pentecost as baptized with the Holy Spirit. Nor the 5,000 converts days later. But we might assume those whom the Apostles baptized in water also received the baptism with the Holy Spirit through their hands. But anyone baptized by someone other than an apostle would have been like the Eunuch who received only the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Later, Paul preached to the disciples at Ephesus Acts 19:1. These like the Eunuch received the gift of the Holy Spirit. But they also received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through the apostle’s hands the same way the Samarians did.

The Baptism with the Holy Spirit provided God’s word through tongues and prophecy until the New Testament canon became complete. How do we know this? Paul says scripture thoroughly equips us 2 Timothy 3:17. Paul said tongues and prophecy provided only partial knowledge 1 Corinthians 13:9. So it makes sense scripture replaced them when completed.

Beyond Acts, the Corinthians no doubt received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit through Paul’s hands. And Paul mentioned he wanted to visit the Romans to give spiritual gifts to them too Romans 1:11. Paul mentions laying his hands on Timothy who also received a gift 2 Timothy 1:6.

So we can say scripture directly supports the Baptism of the Holy Spirit for those ministered to by an apostle. That it was not for all. The Baptism with the Holy Spirit passed into history with the rest of the apostles Hebrews 2:4 because only they provided it as a sign of their authority. And that scripture replaced the fragmentary gifts of tongues and prophecy with the completed revelation. And we can confidently say believers from Pentecost on have the gift of Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:38, but not the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Just as the Eunuch and believers since then.

I see it more as what David said. If they destroy the foundation of the doctrines what could the believers do.? It takes the good ground or soil as a foundation. . . the word of God. The foundation of water baptism is a old testament ceremonial law that pointed ahead as a shadow of the up coming kingdom of priest after the new order Melchezedek . Jesus from the tribe of Judah transferring the kingdom of priest from the Levi .John the Baptist the last Levi priest before the reformation. Today it is still used as a ceremonial law. Non effected, But rather a person desire as a sign to the world a member with a new tongue the gospel of Christ. The power of God unto salvation. Again as a kingdom of priest. Once the water dries up the demonstration is over.

 

[Dave-L]

Excellent. So we agree that healing is still for today. Your objection concerns signs and wonders, correct?

Here's how it worked. All believers received the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. This continues until the end of the world. But the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was only for the Apostles and included the gifts of the Spirit, speaking in tongues, and prophecy. Prophecy was no different from Ezekiel's, or Isaiah's prophecy. It was God's word. Only the Apostles had this. These were the signs and wonders of an apostle.

But they also passed these gifts on to others through their hands. But those who received these gifts could not pass them on. The gift of the Holy Spirit remains today, but the signs and wonders, expired with the Apostles. Prophecy and tongues when written became the NT writings and expired as the scriptures began circulating.

 

[Chris1975]

Here's how it worked. All believers received the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. This continues until the end of the world. But the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was only for the Apostles and included the gifts of the Spirit, speaking in tongues, and prophecy. Prophecy was no different from Ezekiel's, or Isaiah's prophecy. It was God's word. Only the Apostles had this. These were the signs and wonders of an apostle.

But they also passed these gifts on to others through their hands. But those who received these gifts could not pass them on. The gift of the Holy Spirit remains today, but the signs and wonders, expired with the Apostles. Prophecy and tongues when written became the NT writings and expired as the scriptures began circulating.

1 Corinthians 12
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 14
14 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

1 Timothy 4
14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership. (so not just the apostles as you allude to)