Torah Observant Christians.
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Hello again rily51jean, the Talmud (as you may already know) is made up of the Mishnah (the written "Oral Torah") and the Gemara (which is rabbinic commentary on the Mishnah). So, the Talmud is the written record of Jewish oral "Tradition".
The Jews taught that ~two~ Torahs were delivered to Moses from God on Mt. Sinai, the "Written Torah" (the Pentateuch) and the "Oral Torah" (or in written form, the Mishnah). The Lord Jesus denounced the Mishnah in the NT as something that contradicts the Written Torah .. e.g. Matthew 15:1-9, so we know that the Oral Torah/Mishnah could not be from God (like the Written Torah is).
That is my VERY long answer for, no, I am not talking about the Talmud
~Deut
The Jews taught that ~two~ Torahs were delivered to Moses from God on Mt. Sinai, the "Written Torah" (the Pentateuch) and the "Oral Torah" (or in written form, the Mishnah). The Lord Jesus denounced the Mishnah in the NT as something that contradicts the Written Torah .. e.g. Matthew 15:1-9, so we know that the Oral Torah/Mishnah could not be from God (like the Written Torah is).
That is my VERY long answer for, no, I am not talking about the Talmud
~Deut
~Deut
when i say 'keeping Torah' i mean 'keeping Torah' not picking and choosing some parts of Torah to observe and others to discard.
i've been saying so. breaking any of Torah means you are not keeping Torah. that is where we disagree: you think you can break Torah and still consider yourself to keep it. you think Torah can be disassembled, much of it deleted, and still be called Torah. i do not believe this, and i do not believe the scripture speaks of it in this way. Moses says keep all of it or be guilty of it, Deuteronomy 12:2. Jesus says keep all of it or be guilty of it, Matthew 5:18. James says keep all of it or be guilty of it, James 2:10. Paul says keep all of it or be guilty of it, Galatians 3:10. YHWH says keep all of it or be guilty of it, Deuteronomy 27:26.
you say the sacrifices are done away with; i agree.
can you point me to where the Bible says the sacrifices are done away with?
and in this place where i hope you will point me to, is the Bible talking about the whole covenant law or about deleting sections of it while pretending it is still whole?
i've been saying so. breaking any of Torah means you are not keeping Torah. that is where we disagree: you think you can break Torah and still consider yourself to keep it. you think Torah can be disassembled, much of it deleted, and still be called Torah. i do not believe this, and i do not believe the scripture speaks of it in this way. Moses says keep all of it or be guilty of it, Deuteronomy 12:2. Jesus says keep all of it or be guilty of it, Matthew 5:18. James says keep all of it or be guilty of it, James 2:10. Paul says keep all of it or be guilty of it, Galatians 3:10. YHWH says keep all of it or be guilty of it, Deuteronomy 27:26.
you say the sacrifices are done away with; i agree.
can you point me to where the Bible says the sacrifices are done away with?
and in this place where i hope you will point me to, is the Bible talking about the whole covenant law or about deleting sections of it while pretending it is still whole?
E
I think we have to rectify the fact that the law had a purpose, if we take anything outside it’s intended purpose, we make it unusable or distorted
the law was given to show how sinful we are.
not to show us how to live righteous lives
jesus told us how to do this, the law of love or the law of Christ
the pharisees were the best law keepers of their day, what good did it do them?
ps, God have many commands which are not included in said law. One who learns and practices love by practice obeys Gods commands, be it of the law or other commands
another issue with law following is you lose the ability to know what true sin is,
the law was given to show how sinful we are.
not to show us how to live righteous lives
jesus told us how to do this, the law of love or the law of Christ
the pharisees were the best law keepers of their day, what good did it do them?
ps, God have many commands which are not included in said law. One who learns and practices love by practice obeys Gods commands, be it of the law or other commands
another issue with law following is you lose the ability to know what true sin is,
Deuteronomy 6:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
Holy Scripture from Genesis to Revelation is a Unified Whole! You will not hear this in Synagogues or Churches because on the one hand the Jews have rejected the Greek Scriptures/New Testament and on the other the Gentiles have rejected the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament.
Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots Movement make an attempt to bridge the divide and have not accomplished Unification.
Given that all Scripture is given by the Inspiration of Elohim/God, all things are Unified therein, because Elohim/God is One.
https://christianchat.com/threads/reconciling-scripture-bible-as-unified-whole.188447/post-4076100
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
Holy Scripture from Genesis to Revelation is a Unified Whole! You will not hear this in Synagogues or Churches because on the one hand the Jews have rejected the Greek Scriptures/New Testament and on the other the Gentiles have rejected the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament.
Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots Movement make an attempt to bridge the divide and have not accomplished Unification.
Given that all Scripture is given by the Inspiration of Elohim/God, all things are Unified therein, because Elohim/God is One.
https://christianchat.com/threads/reconciling-scripture-bible-as-unified-whole.188447/post-4076100
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Posthuman, you need to first understand what torah means... The word "Torah" in Hebrew is derived from the root hif'il which means 'to guide' or 'to teach'. The Ten Commandment is called the The Decalogue which are found in the Torah and are the laws that God through the mouth of Jeremiah said that he would store them in the minds and write them in the hearts of the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant he make with their fathers. How did he make the old covenant with their fathers, tablets of stone.
Question, if you steal, did you break a commandment, or to you it is not called stealing? You break all because it is sin and sin is a breaking of the law. Read verse 9 and 11 and don't just pull a verse out of context to fit your view and it appears that they are talking about the Decalogue and not the other laws, like the law of sacrifice which we know Yeshua did it once and for all.
Torah means "to guide" or "to teach" Just because one says they are Torah observer does not mean that they are still doing sacrifices.
Posthuman, you need to first understand what torah means... The word "Torah" in Hebrew is derived from the root hif'il which means 'to guide' or 'to teach'. The Ten Commandment is called the The Decalogue which are found in the Torah and are the laws that God through the mouth of Jeremiah said that he would store them in the minds and write them in the hearts of the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant he make with their fathers. How did he make the old covenant with their fathers, tablets of stone.
Question, if you steal, did you break a commandment, or to you it is not called stealing? You break all because it is sin and sin is a breaking of the law. Read verse 9 and 11 and don't just pull a verse out of context to fit your view and it appears that they are talking about the Decalogue and not the other laws, like the law of sacrifice which we know Yeshua did it once and for all.
Torah means "to guide" or "to teach" Just because one says they are Torah observer does not mean that they are still doing sacrifices.
[With QUOTE="eternally-gratefull, post: 4140604, member: 82611"]I think we have to rectify the fact that the law had a purpose, if we take anything outside it’s intended purpose, we make it unusable or distorted
the law was given to show how sinful we are.
not to show us how to live righteous lives
jesus told us how to do this, the law of love or the law of Christ
the pharisees were the best law keepers of their day, what good did it do them?
ps, God have many commands which are not included in said law. One who learns and practices love by practice obeys Gods commands, be it of the law or other commands
another issue with law following is you lose the ability to know what true sin is, [/QUOTE]
With respect, I value your wisdom here. I think it will serve PH greatly so as to enable their education in Torah to begin. Thanks again.
the law was given to show how sinful we are.
not to show us how to live righteous lives
jesus told us how to do this, the law of love or the law of Christ
the pharisees were the best law keepers of their day, what good did it do them?
ps, God have many commands which are not included in said law. One who learns and practices love by practice obeys Gods commands, be it of the law or other commands
another issue with law following is you lose the ability to know what true sin is, [/QUOTE]
With respect, I value your wisdom here. I think it will serve PH greatly so as to enable their education in Torah to begin. Thanks again.
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With respect, I value your wisdom here. I think it will serve PH greatly so as to enable their education in Torah to begin. Thanks again.[/QUOTE]
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The Scriptures also tell us in Romans 3:20, "therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Keeping the law has nothing to do with justification, but has a lot to do with walking in obedience. The problem is that Gentile believers refuse to put the law in its right perspective, when they do this then they will understand that the Scriptures is clear with what God first spoke.
[/QUOTE]-------------------------------
The Scriptures also tell us in Romans 3:20, "therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Keeping the law has nothing to do with justification, but has a lot to do with walking in obedience. The problem is that Gentile believers refuse to put the law in its right perspective, when they do this then they will understand that the Scriptures is clear with what God first spoke.
When you sum up what the Torah tells us, you pick out the things that scripture tells us is now changed to a new way and say that is the entire Torah. That is treating God in a very disrespectful way. You cannot praise God because you have distorted Him.
The Torah tells us of God and His ways, but you have said His ways remain the same as the way God tells us is changed and then criticize God for His ways. That is a terrible thing to do. Christ is God, the same as the Father who is God. You do not worship God but criticize Him.
The Torah tells us of God and His ways, but you have said His ways remain the same as the way God tells us is changed and then criticize God for His ways. That is a terrible thing to do. Christ is God, the same as the Father who is God. You do not worship God but criticize Him.
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With respect, I value your wisdom here. I think it will serve PH greatly so as to enable their education in Torah to begin. Thanks again.
The Scriptures also tell us in Romans 3:20, "therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Keeping the law has nothing to do with justification, but has a lot to do with walking in obedience. The problem is that Gentile believers refuse to put the law in its right perspective, when they do this then they will understand that the Scriptures is clear with what God first spoke.[/QUOTE]
I think the keywords there are, what God first spoke. God's laws were reiterated by Jesus. No one that I know in the body of Christ believes the law justifies their faith. They also however, do not marginalize the importance of God's instructions, nor Jesus reiterating those, nor the fact that with the indwelling Holy Spirit, we are now assured those laws are ever present within us, and as the Father promised, written on our hearts and minds so that we are never separated from them.
One knows when Holy Spirit God is leading them to follow His best intentions, and whatever those may be as pertains to the individual who is in Christ, it will always be a leading that is within and of His law.
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Well said. I don't think that one that adds animal sacrifices to the ten commandments intends to be taken seriously. Honestly. I think their intention is to goad the people of Christ using our own precious Bible. And yes, I know how that sounds. And yet, it sounds that way because they speak that way while among us.
No one who knows scripture, or the Decalogue, believe animal sacrifice is a part of that. Every Christian who reads scripture knows that Jesus was the last sacrifice for sin. The sins of the world did He take upon Himself on the last sin altar, the cross, as the perfect, sinless, unblemished Lamb of God.
The ten commandments never once spoke of or to animal sacrifice. In my experience, those who imply the two are able to be conflated are demonstrating an intention that is other than that of genuine discussion of scripture.
Again, well said.
In my view, that which speaks disgracefully about the Jews are in desperate need of Jesus. And they prove this by those words they speak against that precious Lamb that tells us, Salvation is of the Jews.
However, we both know , because we are told this, that Satan can appear as an angel of light and quote scripture. Many a Devil entertains themselves amid the people of Christ. And some are savage evil, as the headlines across the globe report to us far too often, when terrorists enter into temples and churches and massacre those who love the Lord.
No one who knows scripture, or the Decalogue, believe animal sacrifice is a part of that. Every Christian who reads scripture knows that Jesus was the last sacrifice for sin. The sins of the world did He take upon Himself on the last sin altar, the cross, as the perfect, sinless, unblemished Lamb of God.
The ten commandments never once spoke of or to animal sacrifice. In my experience, those who imply the two are able to be conflated are demonstrating an intention that is other than that of genuine discussion of scripture.
Again, well said.
In my view, that which speaks disgracefully about the Jews are in desperate need of Jesus. And they prove this by those words they speak against that precious Lamb that tells us, Salvation is of the Jews.
However, we both know , because we are told this, that Satan can appear as an angel of light and quote scripture. Many a Devil entertains themselves amid the people of Christ. And some are savage evil, as the headlines across the globe report to us far too often, when terrorists enter into temples and churches and massacre those who love the Lord.
I see no difference between the evil of a murdering terrorist, to that of a wicked premeditated Trolling of a Christian community. Because both behaviors are spurred on by the enemy of God. It is zeal and passion to serve his purpose that makes the difference as pertains to escalation of animus, contempt, hatred and murderous rage.
Some such people seek to hurt peoples feelings using wicked disrespectful words. Sarcasm, demeaning name calling, etc... They intend their words to be a weapon against the emotions of the one's they target.
While the evil wicked murderous rage that picks up an actual weapon, be it a machete, a semi-automatic weapon, or they get behind the wheel of a van, or put together an explosive device, intend to hurt people for feeling a love for the Lord and joining together in worship. And as a remedy, such terrorists think if they slaughter as many as able, they'll maybe scare people out of holding faith for the consequences evil causes them to pay.
Oh, how wrong they are.
Both the murderous terrorist and the calculating community trolls. How so very wrong they are.
In this life and as they'll learn, for all eternity.
Unless or until they are able to sit aside their self-loathing first, which is what compels them to hate those who are in peace, and find the light.
God willing.
Some such people seek to hurt peoples feelings using wicked disrespectful words. Sarcasm, demeaning name calling, etc... They intend their words to be a weapon against the emotions of the one's they target.
While the evil wicked murderous rage that picks up an actual weapon, be it a machete, a semi-automatic weapon, or they get behind the wheel of a van, or put together an explosive device, intend to hurt people for feeling a love for the Lord and joining together in worship. And as a remedy, such terrorists think if they slaughter as many as able, they'll maybe scare people out of holding faith for the consequences evil causes them to pay.
Oh, how wrong they are.
Both the murderous terrorist and the calculating community trolls. How so very wrong they are.
In this life and as they'll learn, for all eternity.
Unless or until they are able to sit aside their self-loathing first, which is what compels them to hate those who are in peace, and find the light.
God willing.
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I think the keywords there are, what God first spoke. God's laws were reiterated by Jesus. No one that I know in the body of Christ believes the law justifies their faith. They also however, do not marginalize the importance of God's instructions, nor Jesus reiterating those, nor the fact that with the indwelling Holy Spirit, we are now assured those laws are ever present within us, and as the Father promised, written on our hearts and minds so that we are never separated from them.
One knows when Holy Spirit God is leading them to follow His best intentions, and whatever those may be as pertains to the individual who is in Christ, it will always be a leading that is within and of His law.[/QUOTE]
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Today, as I was reading Galatians 3, I stayed on the first 5 verse and if you read it carefully, the Apostle Paul said to them... O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
He was not stating that the laws were done away with, he was correcting because they were making the law part of righteousness.
Question to all you who say the law could not be kept... If man could not keep the law of God, why did God tell them to keep his laws? Another thing, if he knew man could not keep them he needs to explain why he allowed stoning for those who broke the law knowing that they could not keep them. See, keeping the law of God has to do with obedience to God and nothing to do with making man God's righteousness, but a man who is obedient to the law is walking in a righteous walk and we can see this with Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth. Walking in a righteous walk does not make one God's righteousness, it is just the evidence that you are made God's righteousness in Yeshua.
One knows when Holy Spirit God is leading them to follow His best intentions, and whatever those may be as pertains to the individual who is in Christ, it will always be a leading that is within and of His law.[/QUOTE]
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Today, as I was reading Galatians 3, I stayed on the first 5 verse and if you read it carefully, the Apostle Paul said to them... O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
He was not stating that the laws were done away with, he was correcting because they were making the law part of righteousness.
Question to all you who say the law could not be kept... If man could not keep the law of God, why did God tell them to keep his laws? Another thing, if he knew man could not keep them he needs to explain why he allowed stoning for those who broke the law knowing that they could not keep them. See, keeping the law of God has to do with obedience to God and nothing to do with making man God's righteousness, but a man who is obedient to the law is walking in a righteous walk and we can see this with Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth. Walking in a righteous walk does not make one God's righteousness, it is just the evidence that you are made God's righteousness in Yeshua.
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You are correct, not to mention, the two greatest Commandments that Yeshua quoted was from the Torah, now it is even a clearer picture what what I said about the teacher of the law, he took the Decalogue and learned that it could be fulfilled with the two greatest commandments.
It is good to discuss the above because the Spirit of God just enlightens our mind with an understanding of the truth of God's word what God made clear when he first spoke. Again, that teacher of the law knew how the law was to be kept.
Gentile believers have been impressed deeply with the phrase "the law is done away with" and going into the Scriptures with this phrase in their mind will prevent the Spirit of God from teaching according to the truth of God's word.
You are correct, not to mention, the two greatest Commandments that Yeshua quoted was from the Torah, now it is even a clearer picture what what I said about the teacher of the law, he took the Decalogue and learned that it could be fulfilled with the two greatest commandments.
It is good to discuss the above because the Spirit of God just enlightens our mind with an understanding of the truth of God's word what God made clear when he first spoke. Again, that teacher of the law knew how the law was to be kept.
Gentile believers have been impressed deeply with the phrase "the law is done away with" and going into the Scriptures with this phrase in their mind will prevent the Spirit of God from teaching according to the truth of God's word.
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The giver of the law knows His law stands forever. Love! Its foundation.
The giver of the law knows His law stands forever. Love! Its foundation.
The Psalmist says, the law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul!
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