Apostasy 101

[Grandpa]

-Unbelief and Disobedience have equivalence. Obedience comes from faith. Disobedience comes from Unbelief.
-You say you have faith? Are you living in obedience?

Working at what you think are the requirements of obedience doesn't equal faith.

Romans 9:31-32
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


A whole people group followed after the law of obedience but didn't ever attain to the law of obedience.

Why not? Because they were WORKING at what they thought was the requirements for obedience instead of having faith in God.


Hebrews 3:18-19
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


What is Rest, essentially? Salvation, of course. But think about the word rest. What is Christ giving us rest FROM?

From our own works and understanding of Righteousness so we won't be stuck like that WHOLE PEOPLE GROUP who thought that their work and understanding made them righteous/obedient.



Proverbs 3:5-7
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.



We are Righteous because Christ has given us Righteousness.
We are obedient because Christ has given us obedience.
We are saved because Christ has given us Salvation.

We trust in the Lord and He gives these things as His Gift.


When we work to try to attain we show a lack of belief. When we think that our works are the cause of Gods Blessings we show our extreme error.


We work to try to get to this spot;
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


Once we make it to that point that is where we stay. We abide in Christ.

We don't go back to our heavy labour of trying to be Righteous by our own work and understanding because we know Christs Blessing to us is infinitely more valuable than anything we could attain by our work.


Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[Chris1975]

Working at what you think are the requirements of obedience doesn't equal faith.

Romans 9:31-32
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


A whole people group followed after the law of obedience but didn't ever attain to the law of obedience.

Why not? Because they were WORKING at what they thought was the requirements for obedience instead of having faith in God.


Hebrews 3:18-19
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


What is Rest, essentially? Salvation, of course. But think about the word rest. What is Christ giving us rest FROM?

From our own works and understanding of Righteousness so we won't be stuck like that WHOLE PEOPLE GROUP who thought that their work and understanding made them righteous/obedient.



Proverbs 3:5-7
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.



We are Righteous because Christ has given us Righteousness.
We are obedient because Christ has given us obedience.
We are saved because Christ has given us Salvation.

We trust in the Lord and He gives these things as His Gift.


When we work to try to attain we show a lack of belief. When we think that our works are the cause of Gods Blessings we show our extreme error.


We work to try to get to this spot;
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


Once we make it to that point that is where we stay. We abide in Christ.

We don't go back to our heavy labour of trying to be Righteous by our own work and understanding because we know Christs Blessing to us is infinitely more valuable than anything we could attain by our work.


Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

You twist my words just like you twist the rest of scripture.

 

[Judges1318]

Show me the scripture where it says believing in Christ is a work for which payment is owed and I will show you where it says it is not.

Didn't you say that you had faith in Christ and He saved you for it?

And if you stop then He will take it back?

Let's cut right to the chase. How is that a works gospel?
Why did Jesus teach that the Father will take back the gift of forgiveness if, as you osaser's claim, gifts of God can not be taken back, or else it wasn't really a gift?

You're in a doctrinal rut.
You automatically equate doing anything to be saved with trying to earn your own salvation. The moment you see 'do something' you instantly think 'works gospel'.
So, once again. Show me the scripture that says believing in Christ is a work for which payment is owed, and I will show you where it says it is not.

 

[IFOLLOWHIM]

Thank you Chris,Enxu and Judges!
Trust God and stay covered in Him and the firey darts shall NOT harm you!
May He increase your boldness to stand on the truth of the word!

 

[Grandpa]

Let's cut right to the chase. How is that a works gospel?
Why did Jesus teach that the Father will take back the gift of forgiveness if, as you osaser's claim, gifts of God can not be taken back, or else it wasn't really a gift?

UNDER THE LAW a person was blessed or cursed based on their performance.

Do this and be blessed.

Don't do this and be cursed.


We needed to be redeemed from this WORKS BASED BLESSING and Salvation because we could not uphold our end of the deal.

We couldn't be blessed by God because of our outstanding performance of obedience. We needed Help.

You're in a doctrinal rut.
You automatically equate doing anything to be saved with trying to earn your own salvation. The moment you see 'do something' you instantly think 'works gospel'.
So, once again. Show me the scripture that says believing in Christ is a work for which payment is owed, and I will show you where it says it is not.

A works based salvation is a mindset. If you think there is something YOU do to EARN Salvation then it is AUTOMATICALLY a works based salvation.

(No offense to you because I think EVERYONE starts out this way until they are shown differently)


Everything that YOU think is a requirement for Salvation is a Gift of God. We receive the Gift of God. We don't earn the gift of God by fulfilling requirements.


I already know that believing in Christ is not a work. It is a gift. But you are trying to make it a work by showing that if you stop that work then you will lose your salvation.


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Salvation doesn't come from you. It is not something that you willed yourself to do. Nor is it something you can lose because you didn't will yourself to keep doing it. Salvation is independent of you and your works and understanding.

Thank God!

 

[Chris1975]

Jeremiah 23

14 Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem:
They commit adultery and walk in lies;
They also strengthen the hands of evildoers,
So that no one turns back from his wickedness.
All of them are like Sodom to Me,
And her inhabitants like Gomorrah.

15 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets:

‘Behold, I will feed them with wormwood,
And make them drink the water of gall;
For from the prophets of Jerusalem
Profaneness has gone out into all the land.’ ”

16 Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you.
They make you worthless;
They speak a vision of their own heart,
Not from the mouth of the Lord.
17 They continually say to those who despise Me,
‘The Lord has said, “You shall have peace” ’;
And to everyone who walks according to the dictates of his own heart, they say,
‘No evil shall come upon you.’ ”

18 For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord,
And has perceived and heard His word?
Who has marked His word and heard it?
19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord has gone forth in fury—
A violent whirlwind!
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the Lord will not turn back
Until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart.
In the latter days you will understand it perfectly.

21 “I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran.
I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in My counsel,
And had caused My people to hear My words,
Then they would have turned them from their evil way
And from the evil of their doings.

23 “Am I a God near at hand,” says the Lord,
“And not a God afar off?
24 Can anyone hide himself in secret places,
So I shall not see him?” says the Lord;
“Do I not fill heaven and earth?” says the Lord.

 

[Grandpa]

You twist my words just like you twist the rest of scripture.

Do you think I misunderstood what you were saying?

 

[Chris1975]

-Unbelief and Disobedience have equivalence. Obedience comes from faith. Disobedience comes from Unbelief.
-You say you have faith? Are you living in obedience?

Working at what you think are the requirements of obedience doesn't equal faith.

You used this quote of mine as your reference, and then reframed this into something that you could shoot down (the classical "straw man" approach).

 

[Grandpa]

You used this quote of mine as your reference, and then reframed this into something that you could shoot down (the classical "straw man" approach).

All you have to do is be honest.

It is obvious that if a person thinks Salvation can be lost it must mean that they didn't keep some necessary requirement.

But that is assuming that a person must keep some necessary requirement in order to be saved and stay saved.


I was just showing that these assumptions are incorrect.

 

[Chris1975]

All you have to do is be honest.

It is obvious that if a person thinks Salvation can be lost it must mean that they didn't keep some necessary requirement.

But that is assuming that a person must keep some necessary requirement in order to be saved and stay saved.


I was just showing that these assumptions are incorrect.

• Salvation cannot be earned. It's by Grace you have been saved (through faith)
• You do have to believe (how can you be saved by Jesus without believing?) John 3v16
• You have to continue in the faith (if you would like a list of these scriptures they can be provided).
• You can lose your salvation by a: not believing or b: willfully and unrepentantly living in sin which equates to not believing). This is termed Apostasy (Apostasia in the Greek).

Jesus is the Gate and nobody can be saved by any other means than believing in Him. Only His blood can cleanse us. But once saved you are to walk in the light. You cannot walk in darkness and still expect salvation (if you would like a list of these scriptures they can also be provided).

 

[Melach]

Jeremiah 23

14 Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem:
They commit adultery and walk in lies;
They also strengthen the hands of evildoers,
So that no one turns back from his wickedness.
All of them are like Sodom to Me,
And her inhabitants like Gomorrah.

15 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets:

‘Behold, I will feed them with wormwood,
And make them drink the water of gall;
For from the prophets of Jerusalem
Profaneness has gone out into all the land.’ ”

16 Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you.
They make you worthless;
They speak a vision of their own heart,
Not from the mouth of the Lord.
17 They continually say to those who despise Me,
‘The Lord has said, “You shall have peace” ’;
And to everyone who walks according to the dictates of his own heart, they say,
‘No evil shall come upon you.’ ”

18 For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord,
And has perceived and heard His word?
Who has marked His word and heard it?
19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord has gone forth in fury—
A violent whirlwind!
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the Lord will not turn back
Until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart.
In the latter days you will understand it perfectly.

21 “I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran.
I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in My counsel,
And had caused My people to hear My words,
Then they would have turned them from their evil way
And from the evil of their doings.

23 “Am I a God near at hand,” says the Lord,
“And not a God afar off?
24 Can anyone hide himself in secret places,
So I shall not see him?” says the Lord;
“Do I not fill heaven and earth?” says the Lord.

how could they know who was a real prophet before bible was written? i always wonder about that.

i also think if i have a dream and follow it that if its not from God then im walking in dictate of my own heart, but it can be from God too and then im following God's dictate. its just about discerning which one it is.

 

[Chris1975]

how could they know who was a real prophet before bible was written? i always wonder about that.

i also think if i have a dream and follow it that if its not from God then im walking in dictate of my own heart, but it can be from God too and then im following God's dictate. its just about discerning which one it is.

Great question. The clue as to the characteristics of the false prophets are in the same passage above. Can you discern?

 

[Melach]

Great question. The clue as to the characteristics of the false prophets are in the same passage above. Can you discern?

many false prophets dont just say lets go fornicate and worship other gods. that rarely works. usually they are more subtle like mormons or jehovah's witnesses.

 

[Chris1975]

many false prophets dont just say lets go fornicate and worship other gods. that rarely works. usually they are more subtle like mormons or jehovah's witnesses.

True. But it is EVEN more subtle than that. They masquerade as normal Christians (not just the sects you mentioned above). Its there in the passage above. If you can find it.

 

[Melach]

True. But it is EVEN more subtle than that. They masquerade as normal Christians (not just the sects you mentioned above). Its there in the passage above. If you can find it.

if you are suggesting its osas again somehow and no one turning back from wickedness is what i was supposed to find

only problem is mormons and jw's live holier life than regular christians from what ive seen lolz

 

[Judges1318]

But for a Christian who has been to Christ and received Rest there is nothing that can separate them from His Love. He will never leave nor forsake them.

Unbelief will separate you from the love and kindness of God. You must continue in faith in the kindness of God or you will be cut off:

20 ...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Romans 11:20-22


You must see to it that what you heard in the beginning remains in you in order for you to remain in the Son:

24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. - 1 John 2:24

But you say if you have to do anything to remain in the Son then that's a works gospel.
If that's so, then you're saying John taught a works gospel.

 

[Grandpa]

Unbelief will separate you from the love and kindness of God. You must continue in faith in the kindness of God or you will be cut off:

20 ...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Romans 11:20-22


You must see to it that what you heard in the beginning remains in you in order for you to remain in the Son:

24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. - 1 John 2:24

But you say if you have to do anything to remain in the Son then that's a works gospel.
If that's so, then you're saying John taught a works gospel.

No. You do have to remain in the Son. Its called Abiding in Christ.

Its what someone who is Saved has learned to do. Its how to receive Blessing from God.


A person who has learned this can't just un-know it.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Who will perform this good work?

 

[Grandpa]

• Salvation cannot be earned. It's by Grace you have been saved (through faith)
• You do have to believe (how can you be saved by Jesus without believing?) John 3v16
• You have to continue in the faith (if you would like a list of these scriptures they can be provided).
• You can lose your salvation by a: not believing or b: willfully and unrepentantly living in sin which equates to not believing). This is termed Apostasy (Apostasia in the Greek).

Jesus is the Gate and nobody can be saved by any other means than believing in Him. Only His blood can cleanse us. But once saved you are to walk in the light. You cannot walk in darkness and still expect salvation (if you would like a list of these scriptures they can also be provided).

A Saved person cannot walk in darkness. That is a wrong assumption.

A Saved person cannot just stop believing or willfully and unrepenantly live in sin. This is another wrong assumption.

A Saved person believes and continues in the faith. Only a not saved person would stop believing and not continue in the faith.

 

[Judges1318]

....

You do have to remain in the Son. Its called Abiding in Christ.

Its what someone who is Saved has learned to do. Its how to receive Blessing from God.


A person who has learned this can't just un-know it.

The Galatians unlearned what Paul had taught them.

7 ...Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? - Galatians 5:7

And as a result they had alienated themselves from Christ, not remained in Him.

4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ - Galatians 5:4

 

[Judges1318]

....

I already know that believing in Christ is not a work. It is a gift. But you are trying to make it a work by showing that if you stop that work then you will lose your salvation.


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The faith to know the gospel is true is indeed a gracious, even unsolicited gift of God not of yourself given to man.
But don't confuse faith with the believing that man must do in response to God's gracious gift of faith in order to be saved.

Faith is "the evidence of things not seen"-Hebrews 11:1.
Simply having the evidence that the gospel really is true never saved anybody.
You must put your trust in what God has graciously shown you to be true about the gospel to be saved.
And Paul makes it clear that your believing/trusting done through the faith God has given you is not a work of merit that earns salvation.

"4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." - Romans 4:4-5

Somewhere along the line men decided that salvation not being by works meant you do absolutely nothing at all to be saved, and if you have to do anything whatsoever to be saved, even believing, then that's a works gospel. How ridiculous!

The works gospel is not defined by you doing anything at all to be saved. It's defined by you performing works of righteousness in order to be justified. The works gospel is not defined by if you do anything at all, even believing, to solicit God's declaration of righteousness. But feel free to post the scripture that says it is, if it exists. I posted the passage that says it is not.